Capital punishment...

[Hishandmaiden]

What do you guys and girls think about it?

1) Quote scriptures, please
2) State your views, it is all right to differ in opinions but please do not attack the person.
3) Only people who can take different viewpoints participate.

I want to find basically the scripture for your differing views to aid me in my consideration of what my stand on this will be.

Mod, close the thread if it gets too hot!

Thanks all!

 

[GreenMunchkin]

You shall not murder (Exodus 20:13)​

Have mercy on me, O God, according to your unfailing love; according to your great compassion blot out my transgressions. Wash away all my iniquity and cleanse me from my sin (Psalm 51:1-2)​

You gave me life and showed me kindness, and in your providence watched over my spirit (Job 10:12)​

Am as against capital punishment as I am against abortion and war (legal or otherwise), because life isn't ours to take. That's up to God, and God alone.​

In the Western world, we judge people in Muslim countries for the way they treat people... their punishments. The stonings, and hangings, etc. But we're no different when we inject people with poison. Both are as wrong as the other, as they're essentially the same thing. But our version is more "civilized". Except, it's so not.​

 

[Colabomb]

John 8

Early in the morning he came again to the temple. All the people came to him and he sat down and began to teach them. The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery; and making her stand before all of them, they said to him, ‘Teacher, this woman was caught in the very act of committing adultery. Now in the law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?’ They said this to test him, so that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, ‘Let anyone among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.’ And once again he bent down and wrote on the ground. When they heard it, they went away, one by one, beginning with the elders; and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. Jesus straightened up and said to her, ‘Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?’ She said, ‘No one, sir.’ And Jesus said, ‘Neither do I condemn you. Go your way, and from now on do not sin again.’

 

[MrJim]

You shall not murder (Exodus 20:13)

Deuteronomy 7:1 When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; 2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them

NOW let's see: Genesis, Exodus, Deuteronomy. OK so God said don't murder, but then told the Israelites to utterly destroy some people later on. Funny how these OT things work out.

I was anabaptist for a lot of years, I'll outdog ya anyday on the 'nonresistant' (or pacifist if you prefer) passages of scripture. When approaching this topic you do best working from a NT basis and toss that OT stuff to history~it doesn't do much to aid your argument.

Being a pacifist/nonresistant on the captial punishment/war issue is dandy, but know that government doesn't run by that rule as God as said:

Rom13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

 

[GreenMunchkin]

Deuteronomy 7:1 When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; 2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them

NOW let's see: Genesis, Exodus, Deuteronomy. OK so God said don't murder, but then told the Israelites to utterly destroy some people later on. Funny how these OT things work out.

I was anabaptist for a lot of years, I'll outdog ya anyday on the 'nonresistant' (or pacifist if you prefer) passages of scripture. When approaching this topic you do best working from a NT basis and toss that OT stuff to history~it doesn't do much to aid your argument.

Being a pacifist/nonresistant on the captial punishment/war issue is dandy, but know that government doesn't run by that rule as God as said:

Rom13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Fair enough This really isn't an issue am gonna debate or "argue", though, so we'll just agree to disagree, if that's ok?

God bless you, bro

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

Capital punishment was authorized in the Mosaic Law, and so far as I am aware, there is nothing in the New Covenant that changes that.

I'm not against capital punishment in principle, but I'm uneasy about it in practice since the false conviction rate is too high. I would want as near absolute certainty as possible (something like having led police to the body plus a DNA match) on a conviction before I could approve an execution.

 

[Albion]

And the conservative answer (with thanks to GreenMunchkin for stating the liberal one for comparison sake):

The Christian church has never held that capital punishment is wrong. Check your history. With the exception of a few Medieval cults such as the Cathars and a handful of modern Protestant churches of small membership, the Church has never held capital punishment to be wrong. I'd say that that's obvious since Christianity animated almost every Western nation until recently and no governmental unit in the world outlawed the practice until the mid-19th century, so there should be no uncertainty about this.

HOWEVER, there is plenty of room for us to discuss how and when it is applied, what methods are right to use, and if current practice is in need of change.

Any thoughts along those lines, guys?

 

[MrJim]

And the conservative answer (with thanks to GreenMunchkin for stating the liberal one for comparison sake)

...zing...

You will not find a more conservative Christian group than plain mennonites yet they are against capital punishment, though generally will not interfere with the gov't right to do so.

The Christian church has never held that capital punishment is wrong. Check your history. With the exception of a few Medieval cults such as the Cathars and a handful of modern Protestant churches of small membership, the Church has never held capital punishment to be wrong. I'd say that that's obvious since Christianity animated almost every Western nation until recently and no governmental unit in the world outlawed the practice until the mid-19th century, so there should be no uncertainty about this.

HOWEVER, there is plenty of room for us to discuss how and when it is applied, what methods are right to use, and if current practice is in need of change.

Any thoughts along those lines, guys?

I still hold to the old mennonite position. I do not deny the gov't right to do so but would not seek it for one if I had the decision to make, even if it was one that murdered one of my loved ones. That the link between church and state has been so close in those days of yesteryear does not so justify its existence as it does show that perhaps the church was too close to state (ooops, by anabaptist/baptist is showine ). That "christianity animated" western governments isn't really something to be proud of, considering the way things have turned out.

Again, a "conservative" forum is going to bring out these theological worldview differences, and this topic could devolve the same as the "women ordination" thing~that the only correct conservative POV has to be (fill in the blank). Unlike the liberal forum, where "truth is truth for you" and so there's no real arguing, conservatives are more staunch in their beliefs. Therefore the clash happens. A conservative catholic and a conservative anabaptist and a conservative calvinist really have little in common, except for the perceived common enemy (liberals).

 

[Albion]

...zing...

You will not find a more conservative Christian group than plain mennonites yet they are against capital punishment[/quote}

So on this subject, they are not conservative. There's nothing hard to understand with that. What matters is what the view of Christians historically has been, not whether a tiny group has distanced itself from that--and not even if they remain conservative on OTHER issues (which is true).

Again, a "conservative" forum is going to bring out these theological worldview differences, and this topic could devolve the same as the "women ordination" thing~that the only correct conservative POV has to be (fill in the blank).

In these two cases, that is correct. There is only one conservative answer for each of those issues. The liberal answer could be taken by an otherwise conservative person, yes. But this is not just he-said, she-said, the other guy-said. WE CAN KNOW THE ANSWER. What has the historic church said? Do we know what Christians did before the Mennonites appeared. Yes we do. Do we know what 99% of the world's Christians since the founding of the Mennonits believe on these issues? Yes. We certainly do and can prove it.

So the Conservative answer clear. It could, as I always say, be the WRONG answer, and you can argue that with my full support. But what is the Conservative answer is known.

Therefore the clash happens. A conservative catholic and a conservative anabaptist and a conservative calvinist really have little in common, except for the perceived common enemy (liberals).

As has been said before, an individual can be conservative generally and liberal on specific points. Also, many people label THEMSELVES as conservative without fully knowing what the word implies. It is to conserve, not to innovate.

 

[MrJim]

...zing...

You will not find a more conservative Christian group than plain mennonites yet they are against capital punishment[/quote}

So on this subject, they are not conservative. There's nothing hard to understand with that. What matters is what the view of Christians historically has been, not whether a tiny group has distanced itself from that--and not even if they remain conservative on OTHER issues (which is true).




In these two cases, that is correct. There is only one conservative answer for each of those issues. The liberal answer could be taken by an otherwise conservative person, yes. But this is not just he-said, she-said, the other guy-said. WE CAN KNOW THE ANSWER. What has the historic church said? Do we know what Christians did before the Mennonites appeared. Yes we do. Do we know what 99% of the world's Christians since the founding of the Mennonits believe on these issues? Yes. We certainly do and can prove it.

So the Conservative answer clear. It could, as I always say, be the WRONG answer, and you can argue that with my full support. But what is the Conservative answer is known.



...and being in agreement about Capital Punishment. Yes, I know there are dissenters within each group. The churches however are in agreement and are not opposed to Capital Punishment.

OOOKay I can see where this is leading...I guess you can go ahead and write the book on correct conservative thought.

 

[Albion]

OOOKay I can see where this is leading...I guess you can go ahead and write the book on correct conservative thought.

I'm only reporting it. The book was written long ago, although you speak as though the idea is whatever one wants to make of it. That would be like saying some Pacifists are against violence, but some others think that we should shoot it out. Or that some vegetarians think it a bad idea to eat meat--but that's just their POV. Other vegetarians eat meat and potatoes at every meal. Or that some Communists favor free enterprise.

My friend, some isms or sets of ideas are what they are.

 

[Jim47]

What do you guys and girls think about it?

1) Quote scriptures, please
2) State your views, it is all right to differ in opinions but please do not attack the person.
3) Only people who can take different viewpoints participate.

I want to find basically the scripture for your differing views to aid me in my consideration of what my stand on this will be.

Mod, close the thread if it gets too hot!

Thanks all!

I ama firm believer in capital punishment and also believe it is what God wants as well.





Ro 13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
Ro 13:2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
Ro 13:3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you.
Ro 13:4 For he is God’s servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.
Ro 13:5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.
Ro 13:6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing.
Ro 13:7 Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

 

[Epiphoskei]

Capital punishment is a civil matter. Did Jesus give us instructions on how to create a state?

Scripture gives us numerous verses about the death penalty, giving the right of capital punishment to men - Romans 13, God's covenant with noah, and old testament verses describing righteous kings having criminals killed (David had the man who claimed to kill saul killed, and asked his son to have Joab killed after his own death) without negative comment. So it's apparent that man has been given that right, but the christian church has not.

And, though a government can do it, if a government doesn't want to use it, the Bible neither says it's unrighteous for doing so.

 

[Lisa0315]

I would think the death of One Innocent Man should be the example of why the Death Penalty should be abolished. Yes, He gave His life for us, but it still stands as an example of how people can be wrongly accused and wrongly convicted and wrongly sentenced.

Suggestion: Read The Innocent Man by John Grisham. It is not a work of fiction as he usually writes, but a true story.

Lisa

 

[Jim47]

I would think the death of One Innocent Man should be the example of why the Death Penalty should be abolished. Yes, He gave His life for us, but it still stands as an example of how people can be wrongly accused and wrongly convicted and wrongly sentenced.

Suggestion: Read The Innocent Man by John Grisham. It is not a work of fiction as he usually writes, but a true story.

Lisa

While I understand your reasoing, much if those mistakes are made because of the corrupt legal system we have, where lawyers make millons trying get law breakers off scott free. Just look at OJ, do you call that justice.

What about the millions of people who have been brutally murdered, raped and beaten. Do they stand for nothing.

 

[GreenMunchkin]

While I understand your reasoing, much if those mistakes are made because of the corrupt legal system we have, where lawyers make millons trying get law breakers off scott free. Just look at OJ, do you call that justice.

What about the millions of people who have been brutally murdered, raped and beaten. Do they stand for nothing.

Hullo!

I get what you're saying, bro, but citing OJ as a reason to support capital punishment is a little like saying an apple that's gone brown is a reason to stick to beef.

It's a travesty that he got off, but he should have been sent to prison for life. That would have been a suitable punishment.

And about people who have been brutally raped and murdered... it's been proven time and time again that restorative justice is actually more effective than the threat of capital punishment. Killing a murderer is fighting fire with fire, and we're commanded to turn the other cheek.

A judge is just a man who sits in a chair; a jury is just a collection of people. If they send a person to their death, they've then become murderers, also, haven't they?

What's the difference between killing someone directly, and using the state to kill them - the state just becomes the middle man.

Life in prison ought to mean *life* - that's more of a punishment, anyway. And giving the victims/family of the victim the option of restorative justice can be a healing thing for everyone. The focus should be on healing rather than punishment you can't go back on.

 

[Epiphoskei]

Just look at OJ, do you call that justice.

What about the millions of people who have been brutally murdered, raped and beaten. Do they stand for nothing.

What with more and more people believing there is only oblivion after death, thus they do not fear it so much, and more and more death-row inmates trying to get their sentances carried out sooner simply to escape prison, it appers that the greater punishment in the minds of so many isn't to die, but to be forced to live.

And in the end, they die anyway and recieve their due justice from the Lord.

 

[Albion]

I hate to be the fly in the ointment again by asking why on "CONSERVATIVE Christians" forum, the debate is--as I knew it would be--between equally adamant, opposite POVs.


This debate could as well be taking place on any of a half dozen other forums, but here where Conservative principles supposedly are our reason for being...

...no one dropping in could tell it from a Liberal or General Theology forum if they neglected to read the forum's title.


Sooooooo,


anticipating the obvious--that if I dare to mention that Conservative principles are what we are supposed to be about, not Conservative and Liberal equally, duking it out for post after post--I will be told in reply by some of you, "Who are you to say what conservative is?,"


I will only ask everyone this: What has the Christian church said about it?


Knowing that there are many different denominations, etc. the question can be refined to:


What has been the standard position of Christianity through all the years, taking account of as many branches or denominations as possible in your thinking and accounting for the size of each?


The answer is the Conservative Christian position, by definition, like it or not.

 

[Colabomb]

This forum was intended for people who take the Scriptures and the Creeds seriously. Who see the Scriptures as the Inspired Word of God and the Creed as the most perfect summary of our faith, and not documents of man.

The conservative aspect of the forum is that we assume in debate that Scripture is True, and that the Creed is True. How they are interpreted is up for debate.

Example.

I don't think that is what paul really meant = Acceptable

Paul was a mysogenist jerk and he put his own cultural beliefs down= Not Acceptable as it puts into question the inspiration of the Scripture.

 

[Albion]

And I think that everyone posting here does take the Bible seriously. That alone, however, doesn't make them "Conservative" Christians. Perhaps the problem with the forum is one that I don't think anyone has mentioned so far--the title was a mistake. Based upon your observation (and really good example you gave, BTW) it might better be titled "BIble Believing Christians" or something like that. Or join with the Fundamentalists, one leader of whom has asked that we do just that.

I might add that if any ol' interpretation is as acceptable as any other (as you said, "up for debate"), Mormons, Unitarians, and Jehovah's Witnesses are right at home here. Somehow I don't that this is what you had in mind. But I'll let you answer that without trying to answer it for you. Maybe you will say "Yes, of course, they are "Conservative Christians."