Can't accept Christianity

[TheAcherMan]

I was raised in a Christian home, accepted Jesus when I was 6 and led a Christian life with Christian fellowship since then. But in late high school things started to fall apart. While I should have had a faith that welled up from inside and which gave me peace, I found it a strain to love God or even give a crap about what he'd done. I finally decided that I couldn't force myself to love God and that I had to be honest with myself. I released my heart and it quickly fled far away from God. I wasn't happy, but I finally felt genuine and not suffocated.

Still, concerned for my eternal soul, I attended a Christian college for 2 years, but nothing changed. I can now "argue" on the side of the Christian or the atheist. To be honest, I probably argue for Christianity better and I find it hard to shake some of the beliefs. The main theological problems I have mainly revolve around sovereignty vs. free will and the seemingly never ending arguments around things like baptism. It really bugs me that Christians can't agree on so many things that seem to be big deals. Why didn't Jesus teach clearly?

In any case, my main situation is this: I know all there is to know about Christianity, or at least enough. I highly doubt someone could present to me a perspective I am not familiar with. Yet I cannot accept it. My heart wants nothing to do with God and I only think of him bitterly. I don't want to go back to where I was in high school because that relationship was too flimsy and fake, but I would like something to give me a sense of purpose and security in life. Right now I am terrified of death for fear of hell, but I just don't want God. If that's where my heart is, what can I do about it?

 

[razzelflabben]

I'll take the challenge of presenting some "new" takes on the old traditions of the church....

I was raised in a Christian home, accepted Jesus when I was 6 and led a Christian life with Christian fellowship since then. But in late high school things started to fall apart. While I should have had a faith that welled up from inside and which gave me peace, I found it a strain to love God or even give a crap about what he'd done. I finally decided that I couldn't force myself to love God and that I had to be honest with myself. I released my heart and it quickly fled far away from God. I wasn't happy, but I finally felt genuine and not suffocated.

I would like to ask you a couple of questions if I might, it might get a bit uncomfortable for you, so if your the kind that reports every discomfort please say so upfront, otherwise here are my first questions....
1. At 6, why did you come to Christ? Was it out of fear of hell or out of love for God, or maybe out of "presure" from the family??? (those are the most common, there could be others)
2. What do and/or did you expect in the way of your Christian walk....for example, some people expect to always have a giddy happiness they call joy, others no struggles, others an emotional response, what did you expect?
3. I suspect from your discription you are confusing belief with faith, what or how would you define faith, and how does that differ from belief?
4. What about "Christianity" made you feel like you were suffocating? Was it the rules, the lie, or something else.

Thanks, that will help me proceed with some basics.

Still, concerned for my eternal soul, I attended a Christian college for 2 years, but nothing changed. I can now "argue" on the side of the Christian or the atheist. To be honest, I probably argue for Christianity better and I find it hard to shake some of the beliefs. The main theological problems I have mainly revolve around sovereignty vs. free will

I honstly love these kinds of questions, so let me dangle some things in front of you, but first, what did you expect to change by going to a Christian college? I mean, Christ, through the Holy Spirit is a change within, moving outward, not an outward change that moves inward....

But moving on, sovereignty vs. free will...one of the basic misconceptions I have found about sovereignty is that God, knows all, so therefore has control over all. The bible on the other hand (getting ready for lunch if you want scripture specify which and I'll get back to them asap) gives us two aspects of God's soveignty that the church primarily overlooks.
1. God's all knowing is not based on His control of everything, but rather on His being there. When I began to study this concept, I was amazed to discover that God knows all because He is there...He is in our past, He is in our present and He is in our Future....because of this, He knows, He's there. Time for God is eternal, there is no beginning or ending, in fact even in Gen. we see that God but measure on time for man not for Himself. So there is no conflict here.
2. Sovereignty is more about authority than anything else. The sovereignty of God is about His authority over all, hint, this is the same authority that the centurion understood and was evidenced by His faith....faith is about understanding authority.
and the seemingly never ending arguments around things like baptism. It really bugs me that Christians can't agree on so many things that seem to be big deals. Why didn't Jesus teach clearly?

In any case, my main situation is this: I know all there is to know about Christianity, or at least enough. I highly doubt someone could present to me a perspective I am not familiar with. Yet I cannot accept it.

what exactly don't you accept? Christianity, Christ, God, specific aspects of one or the other...?

My heart wants nothing to do with God and I only think of him bitterly.

why? What has He done to hurt you?

I don't want to go back to where I was in high school because that relationship was too flimsy and fake, but I would like something to give me a sense of purpose and security in life.

do you know what the bible says man's purpose is? Have you studied that yet? What about security?

Right now I am terrified of death for fear of hell, but I just don't want God. If that's where my heart is, what can I do about it?

I personally think you need a real glimpse of God, but one thing at a time.

 

[unkern]

The reason that Messiah's preachings are not clear to us is that he was a Jew and preached to Hebrew Jews, this means he was preaching to a specific culture and time, the only way to truly find what he was talking about is to take a step back in time to that culture, and understand why he said the many things he did.

For example the deeper meaning just behind who he was, many find it odd that he would just walk up to regular men and say "come follow me" and they would drop everything and go, but if you destroy the image of a latin Jesus, and understand that he was Jewish with brown skin, more than likely black hair, he wore a tallit over his head and would have bee dressed just like a Rabbi would you would know that all young Jewish boys aspired to be just like Rabbi's, they were the movie stars of that time. So of course they dropped everything to become that.

The Lord want you to choose him more than anything, and there's no reason to be forcing yourself to try and love instead you should actually love him.

The NT says that we love him if we obey his commands, even at 6 have you obeyed all of his commands? To this day how many people do you know that obey all his commands? Alot of people dont even know what his commands are.

 

[TheAcherMan]

Razzelflabben, in response to your questions: (sorry this is long!)
1. I initially came to Christ when I was 6 mainly because it seemed like the thing to do. I kept hearing about accepting Christ from my family and church and I didn't want to go to hell, so I asked him into my heart. At least that's what I remember. I'm not sure exactly how much the fear of hell played into it. Since then, I renewed this prayer a number of times because I wasn't sure of my understanding as a child. In these "renewings" I think my thoughts were that I needed God as a rock and purpose-giver in my life.

2. I never expected no struggles or a consistent happiness in my walk with God. What I expected was a security, I place i could always return to to remember what I really believed and cared about. I also expected to genuinely love God, but was never able to feel the love and thankfulness that I saw others express in worship. I know people express worship differently, but I hardly ever even felt like worshiping. This is what made me notice something wasn't quite right with me. I didn't feel worship and my relationship with God was more of a stress and strain to maintain than a comfort.

3. Faith vs. Belief? Hmmm. Belief means you assert something to be true. Faith means you actually trust that something with a deep conviction, even when you don't really feel like it or many things discourage you. I know I had belief. But I often felt a lack of conviction. If my belief was only skin-deep, then I fooled myself for a while, believing that i really believed what I thought I believed! Still, there were times when I felt truly convicted, truly grateful for Christ's work. But those times were fleeting.

4. I felt like I was suffocating because I constantly had to fight and psyche myself up to feel like I really cared about God. I felt like the Christian heart I should have had (that I wanted to have) did not well up like a spring of life within me, but instead was scraped together from whatever shallow surface-engergy I could muster. I knew the heart I should have had because I saw it in people around me, but I had to almost brainwash myself at times to feel the slightest appreciation for Christ's work. I always asked for the Holy Spirit to work through me because I knew it shouldn't be through my efforts, but he seemed to never come.


The only reason I went to a Christian college was because I thought I might find some answers from the wisdom of other Christians. But I didn't and am now transfering to a state school.


I guess I don't really want to get into the sovereignty issue, but my main concerns are with passages like Romans 9. I can't read that and not see my eternal self as a puppet.


To answer your other questions,
-the main thing I can't accept about Christianity is its relationship to me. Objectively I have very few problems except for the sovereignty issue, but mainly my heart just doesn't want it. When I gave it a chance, my heart shot off in the other direction. I've tried many times to convince my heart to reconsider, but it likes where it is.

-My heart thinks of God bitterly because of all the time I spent pleading with him to give me peace and an honest love for him, but to no avail. I tried so hard, but could never have a restful relationship with him.

-I know the Bible says man's purpose and security is found in Christ. But that's the problem. I found stress and difficulty in Christ instead of security. He (or my relationship with him) was as flimsy as anything else in my life.


thanks for reading

 

[rosenherman]

Do you believe in God?

 

[razzelflabben]

Razzelflabben, in response to your questions: (sorry this is long!)
1. I initially came to Christ when I was 6 mainly because it seemed like the thing to do. I kept hearing about accepting Christ from my family and church and I didn't want to go to hell, so I asked him into my heart. At least that's what I remember. I'm not sure exactly how much the fear of hell played into it. Since then, I renewed this prayer a number of times because I wasn't sure of my understanding as a child. In these "renewings" I think my thoughts were that I needed God as a rock and purpose-giver in my life.

Let me share something with you, when I was 6 or 7 years old, I gave my life to God, I remember it well, but at that point in my life, I had no concept of what sin was. I had a pale memory of hell, or being told about hell, but not about sin, and what sin was. As I grew in Christ all I wanted was to be closer and closer and closer because of the glimpse of God I had, not because someone told me this or that....in fact, I remember how emotional people were getting and longed for that emotional response to God. so I prayed and prayed the sinners prayers, over and over again, trying to find what I already knew, God isn't about heaven and hell. God isn't about sin or righteousness, God is about holiness, about being set apart, about restoration into what God intended for us to be....how we get there is where the sin, forgiveness, baptism, etc. comes in, (so as not to confuse anyone)

2. I never expected no struggles or a consistent happiness in my walk with God. What I expected was a security, I place i could always return to to remember what I really believed and cared about. I also expected to genuinely love God, but was never able to feel the love and thankfulness that I saw others express in worship. I know people express worship differently, but I hardly ever even felt like worshiping. This is what made me notice something wasn't quite right with me. I didn't feel worship and my relationship with God was more of a stress and strain to maintain than a comfort.

Everything I read here is about a feeling, I don't think that is what you mean, but it is what I hear.

As to security, what does that look like? What does love look like? I am doing a several year study into what love is, love doesn't always look or feel like we want it to or think it should.

3. Faith vs. Belief? Hmmm. Belief means you assert something to be true. Faith means you actually trust that something with a deep conviction, even when you don't really feel like it or many things discourage you. I know I had belief. But I often felt a lack of conviction. If my belief was only skin-deep, then I fooled myself for a while, believing that i really believed what I thought I believed! Still, there were times when I felt truly convicted, truly grateful for Christ's work. But those times were fleeting.

According to the centureon, faith is about total trust in that authority...so look at it this way, if you do not trust that even this struggle is subject to God's authority, you are missing what faith is. We don't always live like we have faith, but when it is there, you know it. What do you think is not subject to God's authority?

4. I felt like I was suffocating because I constantly had to fight and psyche myself up to feel like I really cared about God.

are you married? have kids? Do you ever have to phych yourself up to spend time with them? I have 5 kids, and there are definately days where I have to psych myself up to spend time with them, but my love for them is unwavering. Many people assume that God is about feel good theologies, infact, many today teach this feel good stuff. But it is okay to not always "feel" like loving anyone, including God. I remember one day in which I got furious with God, He was not the God I believed in, but, eventually, I began to realize that I didn't stop loving Him just because I was angry...to this day I "feel" like He was wrong, but I still love HIm. Love isn't about a feeling, an emotion, it's about a covenant, a relationship....

I felt like the Christian heart I should have had (that I wanted to have) did not well up like a spring of life within me, but instead was scraped together from whatever shallow surface-engergy I could muster.

who knows what the "Christian heart" should be like? TAke note of some of the Psalms, the despair in the songs....or maybe even Lametations, many great men and woman of faith had hearts that did not resemble the "happy go lucky" or "comfortable" relationships with God. I think the first thing I would tell you, is throw out what you think the Christian walk is like, what it looks like, what it feels like, what it smells like, and notice the vast differences between those greats of the bible that mark for us how God interacts to mankind.

I knew the heart I should have had because I saw it in people around me, but I had to almost brainwash myself at times to feel the slightest appreciation for Christ's work. I always asked for the Holy Spirit to work through me because I knew it shouldn't be through my efforts, but he seemed to never come.

But again, your basing your relationship on the relationship of others. Do you base your marriage relationship, your parental relationship on the relationship of another couple or another parent/child? Every relationship is different, every relationship has it's own nuances. Don't base your relationship with God on anothers relationship, they aren't the same.

The only reason I went to a Christian college was because I thought I might find some answers from the wisdom of other Christians. But I didn't and am now transfering to a state school.

I get asked for advice on a regular basis, most of the time, my advice is to seek God's answers not man's. I would have to say the same thing to you, what answers is God giving to you...they are there, but you have to get past the voices of all the others, and find only God's voice to listen to.

I guess I don't really want to get into the sovereignty issue, but my main concerns are with passages like Romans 9. I can't read that and not see my eternal self as a puppet.

So why not start there in a quest to understand what you seem to be missing? If you want help, feel free to explain exactly what specifically your problem is.[/quote]


To answer your other questions,
-the main thing I can't accept about Christianity is its relationship to me. Objectively I have very few problems except for the sovereignty issue, but mainly my heart just doesn't want it. When I gave it a chance, my heart shot off in the other direction. I've tried many times to convince my heart to reconsider, but it likes where it is.[/quote]Let me make a suggestion to you? Instead of trying to force yourself to "believe" what you want to believe, seek God and find out how easily your heart yeilds. And seeking God isn't about what others think, but rather God is obtainable to you, me, etc. I can tell you how I found God, about the glimpse of God I had, but again, that is my relationship, you need to know your own relationship.

-My heart thinks of God bitterly because of all the time I spent pleading with him to give me peace and an honest love for him, but to no avail. I tried so hard, but could never have a restful relationship with him.

In sunday school resently, we were talking about God's holiness, how many times, have I heard people seek God on thier own behalf, and not on God's behalf....look for who God is, not what He can do for you....

-I know the Bible says man's purpose and security is found in Christ. But that's the problem. I found stress and difficulty in Christ instead of security. He (or my relationship with him) was as flimsy as anything else in my life.


thanks for reading

actually man's purpose is love, both to give and recieve....I'll see if I can find the long list of passages on this issue...it's about denying self, for love....give me some time and remind me if I forget...

 

[Lucis]

I released my heart and it quickly fled far away from God.

What do you mean by this? How does a person "release" the heart? You mean you started living a "sinful life", or did you stop going to church or was it something mentally? How can you flee from God? Isn't He everywhere?

but I finally felt genuine and not suffocated

What made you feel suffocated? Do you think God wants you to feel that way?

 

[TheAcherMan]

Razzelflabben,

You said God isn't about heaven or hell, sin or righteousness, but about holiness and restoration. I'm not sure what you mean by this. I know that God is holy and that we have fallen from him and that salvation is a means of restoring that fallen relationship. Are you saying we shouldn't stress sin or hell? Or are you just making sure I understand the idea of restoration. I also have more memory of the concept of hell than of sin. In fact, I've tossed around the idea that maybe part of my problem is that I never fully grasped my sin and my need for a savior. Maybe I was never fully convicted (though I did sometimes). Just a theory.

You're not the first person to say I'm just talking about feeling and I find this one of the hardest topics to process and explain. But I'd like to ask if there's a difference between conviction and feeling. Throughout any feeling, shouldn't I have felt some degree of conviction? Instead, even on perfectly fine days, even though nothing was going wrong, I found that I didn't want anything to do with God. And this wasn't an occasional thing. There were only a couple of months total during high school that I didn't feel that way. Maybe it was a feeling, but such consistent lack of love for God must mean something! Not only lack of love, but people talking about their personal relationships with God made me feel uneasy and I even remember getting angry as a young man spoke about how God saved him from being paralyzed. It wasn't just feeling; it was a part of me that truly wasn't Christian. Of course, I'm speaking through a lot of interpretation on my part and this is a big confusing topic for me, trying to figure out exactly where I was spiritually at the time.

To me, security is foundation. It means I always have something I can rely on and return to when all else fails. This foundation provides support and direction. God was never such a foundation for me because my relationship with him was as shaky as anything. You also asked what love looks like. Love is a deep devotion. Even when not accompanied by fuzzy feelings, it means I should appreciate God and follow him unconditionally and trust him. I cannot be perfect in this love and devotion, but should find rest in his name, not frustration.

I'm not sure what you meant in your paragraph about faith and trust in authority. I know that God even has authority in this situation (although I should say I am reluctant to admit that. I have fallen far and do not like to picture God in connection to me).

I don't have a wife or kids. I'm only 19 lol. I know it's not unusual to have to psyche oneself up for something. But I remember what I did was more like brainwashing. I would sit and pray and convince myself to face the day. And when I got up, I could tell that I had only put a thin layer of shield between me and total collapse. It was also completely my effort. I felt no support from the Holy Spirit and the surface energy I used to hold myself together put great strain on me mentally. Should I really have to force myself to love God? I'll admit I'm not sure what exactly a great personal relationship with God should look like. For me, it's easy to picture an all-or-nothing relationship. I find it hard to see how ups and downs can fit in. Still, I can't imagine that what I've experienced is a normal "down." If nothing else, it at least shows that I was never ground firmly enough in my faith.

I know my relationship with God is not the same as others' relationships with him. But I don't think lack of worship, conviction, and love on my part is just an insignificant difference.

As for the Rom 9 issue, I've already looked into it numerous times. I always reach the same unsatisfying conclusion that God predestines our lives yet holds us accountable. I really can't see myself getting past this, especially if I'm trying to do so without God.

I'm not sure I can "seek God" on my own right now. Even the thought of it ignites an angry fire in my soul. Like a wounded animal, I don't trust God anymore. You could say I wouldn't want to touch him with a 10 foot pole.

Lucis, to respond to your question of how one "releases the heart," I mean that I stopped trying to force myself to love God and follow him. I was only fooling myself anyway. I didn't start living a "sineful life." I see living for myself as just as pointless as anything. It was mostly a mental switch, but I did stop going to church (though I got much of that anyway at my Christian college). I didn't flee from God as much as I just stopped dealing with him.


I feel like I should mention some things about my personality. Though not spiritual in nature, I feel like it matters. This is another huge topic, so I'll be concise. I have low self-esteem and low self-confidence. I am naturally skeptical and tend to err on the side of caution in most things. I find no purpose in life in itself and if not for my upbringing I would probably be a nihilist (everything is meaningless), or something like that. You can read my other post regarding some of this if you want. It's called "Unmotivated and Directionless" on the General Mental Health board.
christianforums.com/t7379941/#post52193047


Again, thanks for reading all this. It's nice to be able to discuss these things with someone, although it's quite the challenge to voice a thousand swirling thoughts and feelings on a forum. I could probably go into much greater detail on most things we've discussed so far. Thanks again.

By the way, how do I quote things like you do?

 

[razzelflabben]

Razzelflabben,

You said God isn't about heaven or hell, sin or righteousness, but about holiness and restoration. I'm not sure what you mean by this. I know that God is holy and that we have fallen from him and that salvation is a means of restoring that fallen relationship. Are you saying we shouldn't stress sin or hell? Or are you just making sure I understand the idea of restoration. I also have more memory of the concept of hell than of sin. In fact, I've tossed around the idea that maybe part of my problem is that I never fully grasped my sin and my need for a savior. Maybe I was never fully convicted (though I did sometimes). Just a theory.

Consider Jesus teachings...how often did He teach heaven and hell vs. how often He taught Love and restoration? We tend to teach people sin and hell, not love and restoration, and yet the vast majority of scripture teaches love and restoration, not heaven and hell.

Make no mistake, sin and hell are a big deal, it explains why we need restored and how to become restored, but our purpose our restoration isn't to heaven, our purpose is to be holy, to be creatures of Love...biblical love...our restoration is to be one with God.

You're not the first person to say I'm just talking about feeling and I find this one of the hardest topics to process and explain. But I'd like to ask if there's a difference between conviction and feeling.

Personally, I think there's a huge difference. Feelings are emotions, emotions are fleeting. Consider a marriage, the "love" feelings come and go, they are not lasting. Conviction however, thought it can and is felt, does not vanish, it remains until we deal with it.

Throughout any feeling, shouldn't I have felt some degree of conviction?

Not necessarily, though you might...here's the thing, we interpret God through the physical man, therefore, conviction can look and feel, emotional, but the difference is that one comes and goes the other remains because it is centered in our Spirit, our Soul, not our emotions.

Instead, even on perfectly fine days, even though nothing was going wrong, I found that I didn't want anything to do with God. And this wasn't an occasional thing. There were only a couple of months total during high school that I didn't feel that way. Maybe it was a feeling, but such consistent lack of love for God must mean something! Not only lack of love, but people talking about their personal relationships with God made me feel uneasy and I even remember getting angry as a young man spoke about how God saved him from being paralyzed. It wasn't just feeling; it was a part of me that truly wasn't Christian. Of course, I'm speaking through a lot of interpretation on my part and this is a big confusing topic for me, trying to figure out exactly where I was spiritually at the time.

sounds like conviction, sounds like God has been trying to get your attention....trying to get you to seek Him not all the other things that you think are Him.

To me, security is foundation. It means I always have something I can rely on and return to when all else fails. This foundation provides support and direction. God was never such a foundation for me because my relationship with him was as shaky as anything. You also asked what love looks like. Love is a deep devotion. Even when not accompanied by fuzzy feelings, it means I should appreciate God and follow him unconditionally and trust him. I cannot be perfect in this love and devotion, but should find rest in his name, not frustration.

hang on, I have something for you to study and consider....I would love to give you this whole thing, and if you give me a couple days and your email, I could email you scriptures and study notes, but for the moment here is an amazing outline to study on....I call them God's love notes, they are different pictures of God's love

God's Romantic Love
God's Father Love
God's King Love
God's Friend Love
God's Savior Love
God's Servant Love
God's Shepherd's Love
God's Master/Craftsman Love
God's Comforter Love
God's Love

When you begin to understand the different pictures, the different ways love is shown, you begin to fathom just how massive this love really is.

I'm not sure what you meant in your paragraph about faith and trust in authority. I know that God even has authority in this situation (although I should say I am reluctant to admit that. I have fallen far and do not like to picture God in connection to me).

Authority isn't the same thing as blind obedience. Many people equate God's authority with unconditional, unquestioning obedience, and there that is part of authority, accepting God's authority is about understanding that nothing is out of His control. Let me see, another way to say it...where God's authority could control you, His authority says He won't...does that make sense? I think on this one, I still might be missing your problem, I'm trying to understand it though.

I don't have a wife or kids. I'm only 19 lol. I know it's not unusual to have to psyche oneself up for something. But I remember what I did was more like brainwashing.

Unfortunately this is way to common in the church today, in fact, statistic bear this out as well, it is why the focus should be on personal commitment not commitment because of hell...we tell our kids that when God says all of me or none of me, that is when you answer the call. Parents tend to get...worried...concerned...whatever you want to call it, over their children and that includes but is not limited to their salvation.

I don't usually check the stats, sorry, you'll understand this some day.

I would sit and pray and convince myself to face the day. And when I got up, I could tell that I had only put a thin layer of shield between me and total collapse. It was also completely my effort.

In your effort, you will fail, it's why the Holy Spirit is so important, it is in His power that we overcome.

I felt no support from the Holy Spirit and the surface energy I used to hold myself together put great strain on me mentally.

Maybe because you were the one doing it....there is a quote from I think it was a nun, that God is always a gentleman....it applies here, if you are not giving it to Him, not yielding power over to the Spirit, He isn't gonna force you, it all comes from your willingness to deny self.

Until you are willing to yield it all to God, you are the one doing it, and the Holy Spirit will not force His way upon you.

Should I really have to force myself to love God?

No, but you should if you don't mind the advice, force yourself to seek out who He is not who you think He is.

I'll admit I'm not sure what exactly a great personal relationship with God should look like. For me, it's easy to picture an all-or-nothing relationship. I find it hard to see how ups and downs can fit in. Still, I can't imagine that what I've experienced is a normal "down." If nothing else, it at least shows that I was never ground firmly enough in my faith.

I would say yes to both...sometimes, I can barely speak to God, or my husband for that matter...marriage relationships are great analogies, too bad you don't have that one right now to draw from...but it also shows a lack of commitment and love to be ready to throw in the towel when the feelings are not what we want them to be.

I know my relationship with God is not the same as others' relationships with him. But I don't think lack of worship, conviction, and love on my part is just an insignificant difference.

Right, these are all things, acts that can be mimiced to hid what is really inside. But these lies are not getting you closer, but rather further away.

As for the Rom 9 issue, I've already looked into it numerous times. I always reach the same unsatisfying conclusion that God predestines our lives yet holds us accountable. I really can't see myself getting past this, especially if I'm trying to do so without God.

When I studied predestination, and I did for similar reasons, I found that the predestination God speaks of is more like what He wants, not what He manipulates...consider this, God is not willing that any should perish, but we know that some will...so predestination is more about God's heart than about God's manipulation.

I'm not sure I can "seek God" on my own right now. Even the thought of it ignites an angry fire in my soul. Like a wounded animal, I don't trust God anymore. You could say I wouldn't want to touch him with a 10 foot pole.

The God many people claim to know, I would have to agree with you on, which is why I suggest seeking the God He is, not the God you or anyone else thinks He is, even me.

Lucis, to respond to your question of how one "releases the heart," I mean that I stopped trying to force myself to love God and follow him. I was only fooling myself anyway. I didn't start living a "sineful life." I see living for myself as just as pointless as anything. It was mostly a mental switch, but I did stop going to church (though I got much of that anyway at my Christian college). I didn't flee from God as much as I just stopped dealing with him.


I feel like I should mention some things about my personality. Though not spiritual in nature, I feel like it matters. This is another huge topic, so I'll be concise. I have low self-esteem and low self-confidence. I am naturally skeptical and tend to err on the side of caution in most things. I find no purpose in life in itself and if not for my upbringing I would probably be a nihilist (everything is meaningless), or something like that. You can read my other post regarding some of this if you want. It's called "Unmotivated and Directionless" on the General Mental Health board.
christianforums.com/t7379941/#post52193047

personally, my self esteme and self confidence are so low that had it not been for God, I would have killed myself many times over by now. But God gives us worth, He gives us power that we don't have on our own.

Again, thanks for reading all this. It's nice to be able to discuss these things with someone, although it's quite the challenge to voice a thousand swirling thoughts and feelings on a forum. I could probably go into much greater detail on most things we've discussed so far. Thanks again.

By the way, how do I quote things like you do?

Hit the quote button at the bottom of the post....

 

[TheAcherMan]

In my mind, restoration is just another aspect of salvation to consider. I'm not sure why you're stressing this or what you want me to do with it. Perhaps it should have some impact on me, but I've been exposed to theology so long that such things seem like trivial intellectual tidbits.

It seems you agree that my life as a Christian was not one of deep-rooted conviction. So was it not more or less a sham? I obviously had no foundation and was just being tossed by the waves of life, struggling to stay afloat. You also seem to agree that I was lacking the help of the Holy Spirit. You say I should have yielded myself to God. The thing is, I tried this dozens, probably hundreds of times. But no matter how many times I told God and myself that I wanted to submit to him, my heart remained hard. I was only fooling myself by saying I wanted to submit to God. Does that make sense that I could try to submit to God, but deep down not want to? I found this the most frustrating part of my relationship with him. Even when I would realize that I needed God, I couldn't force my heart to want him. Apparently, I can't change my heart through willpower. That's why nothing felt genuine and why I've often seen myself as mysteriously incompatible with God. I hope this makes sense.

You want me to seek God the way he is, not the way I think he is. But I don't know how I could erase the predispositions I have. Like I said, I am very reluctant to let God back in my life. I can't see myself approaching him and I can only see him reaching me if he's sneaky enough to get past my defenses.

I'm not sure what else to say at this point. It's apparent that my heart doesn't want change because it is wounded, confused, and distrusting of all solutions.

 

[Catherineanne]

Right now I am terrified of death for fear of hell, but I just don't want God. If that's where my heart is, what can I do about it?

Faith is not a destination, AcherMan. It is a journey. If you are at the stage of your journey where you are afraid of death, but do not want God, then that is fine. As with any journey, you will progress from this point to another point, and that is fine too.

None of us has arrived; we are all on that same journey. Meanwhile, you might like to consider how healthy a human relationship predicated on fear and the avoidance of disproportionate punishment would be. The answer is, not very. Therefore it makes sense to prefer to have a relationship with a Creator which is predicated upon him allowing us to be who we are, rather than who we are not. In other words, it is not God you don't believe in, but the sadistic version of God promulgated by some churches, which has nothing to do with the God revealed in Christ.

Therefore, I am sure God has no problem with your doubts, and will wait for you until your journey brings you to another place.

 

[rosenherman]

Faith is not a destination, AcherMan. It is a journey. If you are at the stage of your journey where you are afraid of death, but do not want God, then that is fine. As with any journey, you will progress from this point to another point, and that is fine too.

None of us has arrived; we are all on that same journey. Meanwhile, you might like to consider how healthy a human relationship predicated on fear and the avoidance of disproportionate punishment would be. The answer is, not very. Therefore it makes sense to prefer to have a relationship with a Creator which is predicated upon him allowing us to be who we are, rather than who we are not. In other words, it is not God you don't believe in, but the sadistic version of God promulgated by some churches, which has nothing to do with the God revealed in Christ.

Therefore, I am sure God has no problem with your doubts, and will wait for you until your journey brings you to another place.

What she said!!

Google "Toxic Faith" There are several sites and a couple of books on it. It sounds like you got a pretty good dose of it. Good Luck.

 

[razzelflabben]

In my mind, restoration is just another aspect of salvation to consider. I'm not sure why you're stressing this or what you want me to do with it. Perhaps it should have some impact on me, but I've been exposed to theology so long that such things seem like trivial intellectual tidbits.

do you know what we are restored to?

It seems you agree that my life as a Christian was not one of deep-rooted conviction. So was it not more or less a sham? I obviously had no foundation and was just being tossed by the waves of life, struggling to stay afloat. You also seem to agree that I was lacking the help of the Holy Spirit. You say I should have yielded myself to God. The thing is, I tried this dozens, probably hundreds of times. But no matter how many times I told God and myself that I wanted to submit to him, my heart remained hard. I was only fooling myself by saying I wanted to submit to God. Does that make sense that I could try to submit to God, but deep down not want to?

absolutely makes sense, and my premise is that you could not/would not submit because you lacked an understanding or glimpse as it were of who God really is...You seem to have been chasing the God you thought He was, the God you were told He was, not the God that He is.

I found this the most frustrating part of my relationship with him. Even when I would realize that I needed God, I couldn't force my heart to want him. Apparently, I can't change my heart through willpower. That's why nothing felt genuine and why I've often seen myself as mysteriously incompatible with God. I hope this makes sense.

I know what you are saying, and yet, God says that every knee will bow, every tongue confess, it isn't about you being so different than everyone else, it's that you haven't yet seen a glimpse of God.

Consider Paul, He had a glimpse, and it changed his life...I also had a glimpse of God, a different glimpse, but a glimpse none the less. I think every committed, dedicated believer I know has had a glimpse of God, a glimpse that convinced them Hi is what they need.

You want me to seek God the way he is, not the way I think he is. But I don't know how I could erase the predispositions I have. Like I said, I am very reluctant to let God back in my life. I can't see myself approaching him and I can only see him reaching me if he's sneaky enough to get past my defenses.

So take a season to not reach...take a season to explore and study and find out who He is.

I'm not sure what else to say at this point. It's apparent that my heart doesn't want change because it is wounded, confused, and distrusting of all solutions.

Join the club...our current church body is mostly full of people who have been hurt by the church....it's a common problem, one that God is able to overcome....even our family has been horribly hurt, but we still love God, and the glimpse we had of God was enough to compel us still. Which is why I suggest you need a glimpse....

 

[TheAcherMan]

You say I need a glimpse of God, the real God, not the one I had been following. I have a couple thoughts about this. First, I'm not sure I can openly seek God because the bitterness from the God I new before and all of my experiences with him is so heavily embedded in me. I am wounded and afraid of exposing myself to such a relationship again. I don't see how I could completely flush my mind of its fears and seek him.

Although my heart flares in anger at the thought, I know I probably need God and that I need a different relationship than I had with him before. I just don't think I can bring myself to seek him, nor would I have any idea where to start. What if all I find is the same God who caused me pain or a similar God?

 

[Catherineanne]

What if all I find is the same God who caused me pain or a similar God?

Think of someone you love, TAM. You and I are imperfect, and sometimes we hurt those we love, inadvertantly. This is part of being human, and it happens.

God is not like that. If the version of God you find causes you pain, then it is not yet close enough to the Living God, but made in the image of man. I would start with the Beatitudes; find out from them what Christ says of each one of us, and take his example as the starting point for understanding who God is to us.

If you keep very clearly on Christ; what he says and does, how he behaves to those around him, then I do not think you will go far wrong. But in the meantime, don't forget to live your life. I think at your age it is important to learn about the world, and about your brothers and sisters, and not just about God.

 

[razzelflabben]

You say I need a glimpse of God, the real God, not the one I had been following. I have a couple thoughts about this. First, I'm not sure I can openly seek God because the bitterness from the God I new before and all of my experiences with him is so heavily embedded in me. I am wounded and afraid of exposing myself to such a relationship again. I don't see how I could completely flush my mind of its fears and seek him.

may I be painfully honest with you? I know this feeling well, especially in relationship to the Father God so many preach...much less the Jesus (brother) God....you see, from my perspective Father's and brothers are both very dangerous people and should if approached at all, be approached with great caution, always protecting self. Maybe this is why I understand what you are saying, but I will also say this, learning who someone is, doesn't mean you have to open yourself up to more pain. Consider this, just because you have a glimpse of God, doesn't mean you have to open yourself up to that God until you are ready. But to not seek out who He really is, is like hating ice cream without ever knowing what it tastes like. You can't blame on God what is not HIs..., only what is His....you can't know what is His until you find out who He is.

Although my heart flares in anger at the thought, I know I probably need God and that I need a different relationship than I had with him before. I just don't think I can bring myself to seek him, nor would I have any idea where to start. What if all I find is the same God who caused me pain or a similar God?

And what if you don't? What if you find the God who surpasses your wildest imaginations? There are two sides to every issue, you are only seeing one side....as I said, I am very familiar with this concept....but there is another side, and the other side is what if the God of the bible is the very God you were seeking all this time. The very God that will heal your wounds and give you all you could need or want to get though the hard times yet to come? Would you pass up on an opportunity to know that God just because you might not find Him?

 

[TheAcherMan]

Would you pass up on an opportunity to know that God just because you might not find Him?

No, I would pass up on an opportunity to know that God because I don't want to be wounded again.

 

[razzelflabben]

No, I would pass up on an opportunity to know that God because I don't want to be wounded again.

The problem with passing up on love, is that we also pass up on the healing and warmth and wonders of being alive.

 

[TheAcherMan]

The problem with passing up on love, is that we also pass up on the healing and warmth and wonders of being alive.

Those are things I thought I was promised before, but I only found pain instead when I sought God. Doesn't it make sense that I'd be afraid to open myself up again?

 

[Catherineanne]

Those are things I thought I was promised before, but I only found pain instead when I sought God. Doesn't it make sense that I'd be afraid to open myself up again?

Of course. This has to be in your own time, and in your own way. And for now, as I said, it is time to experience other things, and find out who you are.

When you are ready, you will find God right beside you. And then you will realise that he was there all along.