Canopy theory is dead

[Jpark]

I just found this gem of a quote and despite how much I've heard the canopy theory discussed, I had never heard these verses brought up.

I just thought this was interesting enough to be post worthy. (I actually know people in real life who still hold to the canopy theory.)

From Biologos:

The T.K.O. of the canopy theory is the fact that according to the Bible those “waters above” and the firmament that holds them back were still considered in place during the time of King David, who wrote:

Psa. 104:2 stretching out the heavens like a tent. 3 He lays the beams of his chambers on the waters;
Psa. 148:4 Praise him, you highest heavens, and you waters above the heavens!

​

Nope. 2 Peter 3:5.

The heavens that existed long ago.

don't they still exist today? Why say this?

It's also possible that a great portion of the waters which were above the expanse were used in the Flood, but not all of it.

I know for a fact that the Bible says there is a reservoir of snow and hail in heaven:

Job 38:22-23 “Have you entered the storehouses of the snow,
Or have you seen the storehouses of the hail,
Which I have reserved for the time of distress,
For the day of war and battle?

But what about water?

 

[Standing_Ultraviolet]

The problem is not on the canopy, it is on the timing. AiG has a tremendous burden of the 6000 yrs time limit.

There are quite a few problems with the whole thing. First, there's the Biblical conflict with verses stating that the waters above still exist (whatever it refers to, whether it's cloud cover, or something outside of the Universe, etc.). Then, there's the fact that, since water vapor is a greenhouse gas, you would end up with a tremendous greenhouse effect from a thick canopy. If it were thick enough to supply enough water to cover the Earth, then it would also probably make the planet uninhabitable. Even a thinner canopy would raise the temperature significantly. An orbital canopy made of ice would also generate a lot of heat when it fell, so that's not really an alternative, either. You can still believe that there was a canopy of clouds like you're suggesting (and many Old Earth Creationists in particular do), but the canopy theory is an explanation of the waters above the heavens and the Biblical Flood, and it doesn't really work out.

 

[juvenissun]

There are quite a few problems with the whole thing. First, there's the Biblical conflict with verses stating that the waters above still exist (whatever it refers to, whether it's cloud cover, or something outside of the Universe, etc.). Then, there's the fact that, since water vapor is a greenhouse gas, you would end up with a tremendous greenhouse effect from a thick canopy. If it were thick enough to supply enough water to cover the Earth, then it would also probably make the planet uninhabitable. Even a thinner canopy would raise the temperature significantly. An orbital canopy made of ice would also generate a lot of heat when it fell, so that's not really an alternative, either. You can still believe that there was a canopy of clouds like you're suggesting (and many Old Earth Creationists in particular do), but the canopy theory is an explanation of the waters above the heavens and the Biblical Flood, and it doesn't really work out.

No. It is not.

 

[Standing_Ultraviolet]

No. It is not.

Some people did use it as one. Immanuel Kant was apparently the first person to suggest it in the 18th century, and he suggested that it might be the waters above the firmament referred to in the Bible. Isaac Newton Vail, one of its supporters in the 19th century, was a Quaker who published a book called The Earth's Annular System; or, The Waters Above the Firmament, so he appears to have believed that there was a link, too.

I'm not sure if they developed the idea to account for the waters above or not, even though I kind of assumed that they did. In retrospect, since their ideas are quite complicated and appear to have developed from their understanding of the formation of the Earth (at least in Vail's case), it doesn't seem all that likely. I probably should have researched the topic better before I said that. Sorry about that. It still does seem to be a problematic idea, though, at least from a perspective where it still existed as a sizable canopy during the time when there was modern life on Earth.

 

[juvenissun]

Some people did use it as one. Immanuel Kant was apparently the first person to suggest it in the 18th century, and he suggested that it might be the waters above the firmament referred to in the Bible. Isaac Newton Vail, one of its supporters in the 19th century, was a Quaker who published a book called The Earth's Annular System; or, The Waters Above the Firmament, so he appears to have believed that there was a link, too.

I'm not sure if they developed the idea to account for the waters above or not, even though I kind of assumed that they did. In retrospect, since their ideas are quite complicated and appear to have developed from their understanding of the formation of the Earth (at least in Vail's case), it doesn't seem all that likely. I probably should have researched the topic better before I said that. Sorry about that. It still does seem to be a problematic idea, though, at least from a perspective where it still existed as a sizable canopy during the time when there was modern life on Earth.

The water above is introduced in Gen 1:7. The idea of canopy is for Gen 7:11. Anyone wished to link these two together will have to interpret the whole Gen 1 in a special way. And it is quite difficult from any point of view.

Noticed that there are rivers in the Garden of Eden. If there are rivers on the surface, then it is not possible to have all, or most of, the water in the "above".

I don't need to link or quote any reference. The facts are recorded in the Scripture.

 

[Standing_Ultraviolet]

The water above is introduced in Gen 1:7. The idea of canopy is for Gen 7:11. Anyone wished to link these two together will have to interpret the whole Gen 1 in a special way. And it is quite difficult from any point of view.

I can see where you get that idea from. I view Genesis 7:11 in a less literal way, probably, since I believe that the opening up of the windows of heaven was poetic language for causing a tremendous rainstorm, but I don't see anything wrong with your understanding of it.

 

[juvenissun]

I can see where you get that idea from. I view Genesis 7:11 in a less literal way, probably, since I believe that the opening up of the windows of heaven was poetic language for causing a tremendous rainstorm, but I don't see anything wrong with your understanding of it.

I agree with what you said. So, where is the difference?

 

[Standing_Ultraviolet]

I agree with what you said. So, where is the difference?

Sorry, I thought that you were reading it as saying something different. I don't really think that implies a global canopy, though.

 

[juvenissun]

Sorry, I thought that you were reading it as saying something different. I don't really think that implies a global canopy, though.

Then you have problem. If not a global canopy, then how large was the canopy? Half global? or 1/4 global?

It is either a global one, or there is none.

 

[Assyrian]

I'm sitting here in Wales and a dark gray water canopy covers the sky. In Madrid there isn't a canopy at all, just clear blue skies.

 

[juvenissun]

I'm sitting here in Wales and a dark gray water canopy covers the sky. In Madrid there isn't a canopy at all, just clear blue skies.

See the weather map. It hows big the current "canopy" can be.

 

[Assyrian]

See the weather map. It hows big the current "canopy" can be.

So, you can have a water canopy that isn't global?

 

[Standing_Ultraviolet]

Then you have problem. If not a global canopy, then how large was the canopy? Half global? or 1/4 global?

It is either a global one, or there is none.

Well, I was saying that I don't think it necessitates a canopy at all, at least not of the type described in the canopy theory. An extremely powerful rainstorm wouldn't require a canopy of clouds that had existed since the creation of the Earth. Since water vapor is a greenhouse gas, a global canopy would make life on Earth either difficult or impossible, depending on how thick the canopy was.

 

[Alive_Again]

edited.

 

[Lion King]

I'll just throw this out their and then leave! I'm not going to argue it and you can always look into the scripture regarding what's known about the history of our world. You'll have to witness to the rest yourself. The Holy Spirit is within and if you have a listening heart, there's no reason why you can't bear witness to the truth. Sometimes the daystar arises in our hearts and it takes time. In this case, to be teachable means to not cast final judgment against what you do not understand. Remain open and searching. Live with this knowledge as you will!

See if this puts a few waves into your pond!

Someone has been to Heaven and was shown creation and other significant events in Earth history. Their is a place in Heaven God made where you can go witness this. If you make it, you'll definitely go and not miss it! You'll remember that I told you.

Apparently between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 a lot happened that is not reflected in the Bible. Their are prophetic passages in the Bible that talks about the world (the pre-Adamic world). They concern Lucifer & angels who were disobedient (you have to believe in the Lucifer/Satan thing to get past this precept) and the world Satan took over, he pretty much destroyed. This world was finally judged by God with water.

Anyway, God made the world different from how it is know. Their was a water canopy over the Earth like a big thick bubble/layer that made the sky look kind of pink. It never rained.

Plants and animals were different (huge, i.e., the dinosaurs). They lived millions of years ago. The animals didn't eat each other (at first). Their was one big continent/land mass at that time. Lucifer was in Eden the Garden of God. Many of God's angels (and in some cases devils) have been around for a long time. Lucifer's original covering were gems.

After Satan and his devils were forcibly cast down, the world became corrupt. He had a kingdom, which he eventually sought to exalt himself as God.

Eventually God judged it and it the canopy "broke" and flooded the Earth. God then froze it ("ice age"). Satan didn't just arrive in Eden when man was put there. He'd been their before. Now his covering was taken from him. He had to borrow the body of a serpent to speak with Eve. Their was some level of communication with the animals since Eve didn't freak out that the serpent spoke with her.

God wanted fellowship. He thawed the Earth. The Spirit of God hovered over the waters. He receded them (much of this went into the Earth). He redid the plants and animals and put man in the Garden of Eden. We know the generations from Adam and they are accurate. The Word of God is accurate. It is often misunderstood and in some cases translated imperfectly from the original language.

I'm not going to respond to inquiries about this. You'll either witness to this or you won't. Their are many other mysteries God solved in these Heavenly visits. There's a place in Heaven where all of the animals are there (including unicorns and dinosaurs). Your pets will also be with you if you want them. If you ask God in faith to show you more about this, He'll lead you to the source.

If you don't already readily receive God's Word, how can you believe if I tell you Heavenly things? That's the precept. If you're not hearing, then you won't catch this. If you do not, take heart. Save it for later and just make sure you're doing everything you can to receive God's Word and you'll eventually receive and be able to hear a mystery when someone else gives it (and it won't be a cleverly devised fable). This is not about being puffed up about things I haven't seen. I didn't see it, but I heard it.

If you're a scoffer, then you'll have a lot to scoff about. Scoff to your heart's content! If you're open and prayerful, consider this and ask God for understanding and confirmation in your spirit. "Lead me to the water!"

One thing is certain, the Word of God is true. If you understand the passages about Lucifer/Satan and the world that was it definitely allows for such a scenario as this. It shows just how true God's Word really is. It's so true that the passages you don't think seem to fit, fit perfectly and in perfect order (within the context it is spoken of). The big exhortation is to find your plan God has for you and do it (with great reward) and take your part in your eternal planning by doing His will.

I realize that anyone can make reference to these scriptures and try to deceive. I'm pointing you in the direction of the Holy Spirit. Take it or leave it! I'm gone! Happy hunting!

Dude, stop peddling such fables.

 

[tyronem]

Oh yeah; more Bible verses to disprove other Bible verses!

If there were enough water vapor in the air to produce even HALF the water of the Flood as proposed by YECs, we would have drown by breathing because the air would have been saturated.

I think you misunderstand the biblical creationist position.

The fountains of the deep is where (we might as well say all) the water comes from.

The water canopy, be it ice, water, vapor, whatever, neatly provides a mechanism by where air pressure and oxygen can be concentrated in such a way as to provide the atmosphere necessary for large insect and plant growth. As well as other things such as snake venom becomes non-toxic at atmospheric pressures predicted by the canopy theory.

Cheers