can you stop sinning?

[KalithAlur]

I think it can be humbling in a positive way to point out the sinful nature of humanity. I think it can also be harmful psychologically to constantly reinforce the idea that You Are A Sinner. This can have a subconscious backlash of reinforcing a person's sinful nature, rather than helping him/her to overcome.

Also, I have a theory, with experiential evidence in support of, that it is probable a dedicated spiritual seeker can completely stop sinning _in a certain way. By that, I mean intentionally committing a wrong act. I think intentional sin can be gotten rid of completely.

I don't know what it takes for specific individuals, everybody is different. I think acting motivated by unconditional love is the strongest reinforcer for this way of living.

I think selfishness, pride, need, and similar forms of delusion can be completely overcome. I think it is positive to let go of all attachments, and to replace the self-esteem function with unconditional love.

This love transcends human relations. It isn't inspired by a wife or husband, son or daughter, pet, or best friend, or anything, other than the initial desire to feel unconditional love. The desire to feel love free of the condition, I love you because ...... Even a mother's love isn't unconditional, it states, I love you because you are my child, no matter what else you are or do.

The kind of love I'm talking about is bigger than a mother's love for her child because it doesn't need a reason, and therefore embraces every experience, Akin to a preview of Heaven while still on earth!

it could be objected, If your love embraces every aspect of your experience, you'r insane, because your love embraces car bombings too... ! Well, perhaps, but that same love motivates me to want to prevent car bombings from happening, accepts that they do happen, and there is no pain for me. No sorrow, no sense of loss, only the desire to practically apply my energies to heal.

But even then, selflessly serving an environment while simultaneously being rewarded by every passing breath, it is not truly possible to stop sinning because to sin is to miss the mark, to be in error, and it is necessary to err to be human, because to be human is to lack some of the answers. Only an omniscient being can cover all the angles, so even if you make a decision based on an objective interpretation of what a lot of evidence tells you is most helpful to the majority of free life, you can be grievously wrong for all that.

even if you manage to make all the best decisions for the rest of your life, you live in error to the extent your picture of reality is false - false because based on assumption. the best solution i can think of is, lean on the evidence, admit to yourself you might be wrong, do what you think is right anyhow

............

 

[Solidlyhere]

Kalith said: "I think selfishness, pride, need, and similar forms of delusion can be completely overcome."

Unless (and until) a person is Fully Enlightened, there is no way to "completely overcome" these human traits.
And, since there are VERY few fully Enlightened beings here on earth, I think the OP is over-stating.

In fact, if Kalith thinks he is NOT a sinner, I would say his pride is showing.

I also disagree with most of his other reasoning, especially about only insane people are able to love "car bombers."

Hopefully, in a few more years, you will get away from some of your absolute ("black-and-white") thinking.

If you think that there are people we are supposed to hate, then that is condoning sin.

 

[dayhiker]

God created us to be human, so while I understand that our limitation can be looked at as falling short and therefore a sin. I don't think that God wants us to condemn ourselfves with that mentality.

I also like another NT idea that is spoken of a lot and that is love. Love fulfills the law. The only want the NT says we can fulfill the law by the way. Also Rom.13 say love doesn't hurt people. We can almost always live in a way that doesn't hurt people.

Hope that is encouraging.
dayhiker

 

[dies-l]

God created us to be human, so while I understand that our limitation can be looked at as falling short and therefore a sin. I don't think that God wants us to condemn ourselfves with that mentality.

I also like another NT idea that is spoken of a lot and that is love. Love fulfills the law. The only want the NT says we can fulfill the law by the way. Also Rom.13 say love doesn't hurt people. We can almost always live in a way that doesn't hurt people.

Hope that is encouraging.
dayhiker

Love is a lot more than not hurting people. I tend to think that "loving my neighbor as myself" was intended to be a much higher moral standard than "the law." Anyone can learn a bunch of rituals (which is how the Pharisees viewed morality). It is intensely difficult to love everyone, even our enemies. It seems to me the idea here is that we should never be satisfied with our morality, but that we will always will be sinners and have room to grow.

 

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

1 John 1:10

 

[KalithAlur]

Solidlyhere - You have attached meanings to my post that weren't intended to exist, and that, I think, don't exist for the careful, logically-thinking reader.

I didn't say it was insane to love car bombers. This is what I said:

"it could be objected, If your love embraces every aspect of your experience, you'r insane, because your love embraces car bombings too... ! Well, perhaps, but that same love motivates me to want to prevent car bombings from happening, accepts that they do happen, and there is no pain for me. No sorrow, no sense of loss, only the desire to practically apply my energies to heal."

This statement wasn't my objection. This was an answer to what one might be tempted to object against the kind of love I was talking about. Not only that, loving a ___car bombing___ is a far cry from loving a ___car bomber___ .

As to overcoming selfishness pride ect... completely, just using the word "completely" could be considered absolutist thinking because a completion is a type of absolute... to say absolutes do not exist is another absolutist statement. but your objection was that you would have to be fully enlightened to overcome these things.

i think "fully enlightened" is omniscience, and i don't think it is even possible. however, focusless, pride and selfishness-free, all-embracing love is very possible, and way easier than feeling pain and addiction and anger all the time. I don't think you can confirm _absolutely_ that you've completely overcome anything, because you aren't omniscient and might have overlooked something.

but i think all of the hard, personal experience evidence can confirm that you've almost certainly overcome these things, and i think the technology exists in freely distributed form for anyone to overcome these things, and i think more than a few "fully enlightened" *(in the sense I think but cannot confirm you meant) beings exist in today's world, However impossible it is to prove even one enlightened beings exists, and however easily obscured their ministry might be by mainstream interpretation.

Going back to the car bombings... What I was getting at, if you can trigger an attachment-free love you walk around in a constant love-state even when a car bombing happens, so your love embraces the car bombing but is not attached to it. You feel love while you witness tremendous tragedy because you've turned on your love in a way it might be impossible to understand without experiencing...

try this exercise: clear your mind of all thoughts by spending 6 hours in complete stillness, in a black and silent room. then, when something interferes with your concentration and you start thinking again, concentrate on the emotion love in isolation from anything else, and feel love without thinking or feeling anything else.

Or devise your own exercise based on what your individual situation allows, for instance,

it might be fun, while doing your nightly prayer, to connect to the love of Christ, to invite Christ to share this love with you, and to feel this love radiating outward from your own heart.

 

[HuntingMan]

I think selfishness, pride, need, and similar forms of delusion can be completely overcome.

That sounds a little prideful


Just horsing

 

[Apollo Celestio]

With God, all things are possible. "Go and sin no more." It can be done with his help, at least that's what I believe, but it takes a special trait, (or faith/trust) otherwise our world would probably be a better place..

 

[Solidlyhere]

Kalith replies: "If your love embraces every aspect of your experience, you're insane, because your love embraces car bombings too... !"

Car bombings are NOT part of my experience.

I have never seen one.
I have never known a person affected by one.
So, I have NO experience about car bombings.
And, frankly, I don't much care about them.
People do what people do.

So, your statement is illogical.
You assume that every event in the World is part of my experience?
Ha ha.

Much of the rest of your Post ... well, let's say, I don't agree.
If you are really interested, I will reply.

 

[KalithAlur]

Solid,

Car bombings are not a part of every person's experience, I agree.

I could argue that, in a vague sort of way, car bombings are part of your experience because you'r talking about them. Therefore, they'v influenced you into talking about them, they'v influenced you in that you heard the words and understood they had some kind of meaning, and there are probably other ways car bombings have influenced you.

but i think you just meant that car bombings don't impact you emotionally.

I just meant some people might interpret what I was saying as, "This kind of love embraces evil actions," and object, and I tried to at least partially answer that objection by saying, "Well, love is what is felt when the evil actions occur, but it is not inspired by "evil" and is probably motivated to change what is wrong into what is right."

but now i'v used words like "evil," "right," and "wrong," so perhaps your earlier objection that I'm thinking too black-and-white comes up again. I feel like some things are completely right, some things completely wrong, and some things have elements of both right and wrong, and some things don't fit into either category, and other possibilities exist i haven't thought of.

I am interested in hearing more because it is likely to diversify my understanding.

 

[mishmoo]

KalithAlur says:
What I was getting at, if you can trigger an attachment-free love you walk around in a constant love-state even when a car bombing happens, so your love embraces the car bombing but is not attached to it. You feel love while you witness tremendous tragedy because you've turned on your love in a way it might be impossible to understand without experiencing...
(I’ve underlined the main things I am talking about)

Can you really love and embrace something whilst not being attached to it? I’m not sure I understand how that works. Would that not mean that you are being indifferent to the situation?
Are you maybe trying to say that we should have empathy and compassion for the people who are doing wrong, such as car bombers?

I don’t think anyone can completely rid themselves of committing sins, which is why Jesus died for us so that our sins can be forgiven. We can try our best to be selfless, kind, compassionate and fair to those around us. But we are only human and many aspects of life and the temptations of the devil will affect our judgments.

KalithAlur says:
it could be objected, If your love embraces every aspect of your experience, you'r insane, because your love embraces car bombings too... ! Well, perhaps, but that same love motivates me to want to prevent car bombings from happening, accepts that they do happen, and there is no pain for me. No sorrow, no sense of loss, only the desire to practically apply my energies to heal.

God would not want us to turn off our emotions so that we can be indifferent to tragedy and say we love everyone and everything. God would want us to feel loss for those who’ve lost their lives, and empathy and sorrow for those who are led down the wrong path.

Please forgive me if I have misunderstood what you have meant.

 

[KalithAlur]

mishmoo, your objection is fair, and i feel like you have at least something of an understanding for what I am trying to say

I feel like I'm trying to express the most important paradox I'v ever had the good fortune of experiencing.

"Can you really love and embrace something whilst not being attached to it?"

Yes, this is an essential point to what I am saying. In a way, love is itself an attachment to certain things ... Compassion, for instance. An attachment to helping other people. This doesn't go away, but exists without emotional investment.

Something I haven't said ... Learning to control your own emotions, is an important part of what I am trying to convey. You can still feel sorrow but it isn't necessary because Love (which has to be chosen in the first place, if not somehow triggered by a spontaneous religious awakening or some other experience) cuts through all the lesser emotions.

God would not want us to turn off our emotions so that we can be indifferent to tragedy and say we love everyone and everything. God would want us to feel loss for those who’ve lost their lives, and empathy and sorrow for those who are led down the wrong path.

This may sound cold, but my own experience suggests it is the opposite of cold. You learn to feel so much love that you simply cannot feel sorrow for tragic events - Like I said before, the love cuts through it. And since you now love every aspect of your experience, you would never stop crying if that love was an emotional attachment. Watch the news one time, and you hear about so many people suffering, so many people dying...

Sorrow can be beautiful if it an artful expression of sorrow (sad music) because you'r happy the music can inspire you. Normal sorrow is purely negative because it inhibits action.

Maybe I'm trying to share something that cannot easily be shared.

Your love of the pieces is replaced by your love of the whole. Try falling in love with God, then see God in everyone. To feel the same love for every person might be a good first step toward simply feeling love.

Simply feeling love, feeling it without needing to be inspired by some person or kind gesture.

As to being indifferent to the situation, No... because love is the motivation to make right what is wrong, to end pain in favor of happiness, to prevent death in favor of life, ect... But, indifferent to the extent your emotions don't play with your head and obscure your picture of what is actually happening.

As to the sin, I think you can completely rid yourself of intentionally sinning, but that some form of unintentional sin is not likely to go away because your understanding of the situation you'r in is never perfect, therefore your understanding is itself missing the mark, and that's the definition of the word "sin".

 

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

Maybe being without sin is not as important as being able to face consequences of actions, good or bad, and being free to live those consequences, rather than avoid them.

 

[elsbeth]

"I'm not what I will be, I'm not what I should be, but by the Grace of God, I'm not what I was."
Don't know who said it first, but I agree with it. I don't think, on this earth, we can get completely free of sinning. But the further we go with God the LESS we sin on purpose. And our focus shifts from our sinfulness to God.

 

[KalithAlur]

if you can go without sinning in the face of temptation for ten seconds, why not twenty seconds? if for twenty seconds, why not twenty minutes?

if you can go without falling into temptation for three days, why not a lifetime?

my main objection is to thinking, "People must sin!" this is such brainwashing! how can you avoid intentionally sinning if you'v convinced yourself it's impossible? how easily is the man tempted, who thinks he must be tempted.

 

[dies-l]

if you can go without sinning in the face of temptation for ten seconds, why not twenty seconds? if for twenty seconds, why not twenty minutes?

This sounds very logical, but I don't think it works in the real world. For example, by the same logic, I (or anyone who is capable of running even a short distance) should be able to run a marathon. After all, just this afternoon, I ran three miles. So, if I can run three miles, why can't I run three more? And if I can run 6, why not 26? It sounds very logical, but any marathon runner will tell you that it isn't that simple. To build the body up to the level of endurance to handle 26 miles of running at one time requires months, if not years, of incredibly intense training. To be honest, I think that running a marathon is a cakewalk next to living a sinless life. Unlike the marathon, which can be accomplished with large amounts of human effort, moral perfection requires divine intervention. But, as the Scriptures say, "nothing is impossible with God."

 

[Solidlyhere]

Kalith said: "Car bombings are not a part of every person's experience, ... [but] in a vague sort of way, car bombings are part of your experience because your talking about them."

When I watch a Movie, it is very real.
It is easy to feel like I am right there, having those things happen to me.
So, when I leave the Theater, I carry these memories with me.
Most of the time, I can realize that I didn't get smashed-up or blown up, in REAL Life.

When I watch TV, it is just like going to the Movies.
All this Drama, being pumped into my brain.
Then there is the News.
So, let's say I am watching the News.
Each day, I watch MORE Drama; this happened to him, and that happened to her; and this happened to them.
Yawn.
Oh, it's just another action show ... filled with scandals, fires, and explosions.

OK, on to the scene.
Any suicide-bombing stories I have watched ... I see them as just another fantasy.
I digress.
About 5 years ago, I stopped getting my Newspaper.
A few months later (after I got over the shock of not being able to read a whole hour of Drama), I stopped watching the News.

For instance, when Ronald Reagan died, I didn't hear about it for days.
And, when I did, the funeral was over.

There we go . . . an example of all the Peace I had during those "memorial" days.
He died, but my Life didn't change.
Later, I was just glad it was all over.
After all, Reagan was a Christian; he's plenty Happy now.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Now, back to suicide bombings.

I hear, only second-hand, of a few of them.
Yawn.
I don't get emotionally involved.
After all, there's all kinds of "stuff" going on in the World.
These guys are doing something to make them Happy.
One second of pain, and eternity with 72 virgins.
I just don't care.
Everybody has to do something.
These guys are doing what THEY think is right.
I might disagree with their of Religious expression, but they are being True to their Spiritual beliefs.
This is how those guys don't affect my Life in any way.

Now back to: "in a vague sort of way, car bombings are part of your experience because you're talking about them."
Yeah, well I can discuss the latest episode of The Simpsons.
Several of those episodes are part of my "experience" too.
I can easily discuss a few of them.
In the same manner, I can discuss the latest episode of suicide bombings with you.
Yawn. A TV fantasy.

Whew! Next quote: "I feel like some things are completely right, some things completely wrong, and some things have elements of both right and wrong, and some things don't fit into either category, and other possibilities exist i haven't thought of."

Judging what is "right, and what is "wrong."
Jesus taught us to NOT judge.
It is the act of your judgments which causes pain.
When I think of something as "wrong" ... AND, I can't do anything about it, then I lose my Serenity.

So, in my Life, I have (mostly) dropped my opinions about things being wrong.
With nothing wrong, my Life consists mostly of feeling right.
Maybe like the old song: Everything is beautiful . . . in it's own way.
If (or when) an event occurs, which causes me to make a judgment for that specific issue, then I will spend my time analyzing how I should feel about it.
This leaves me much time where I see my Life as: Walking through each day, and doing God's Will: Feel Love.
I love my Life. I love my friends. I love what I do for a living.
A lot of Love.
- - - - - - - - - -

About "evil."
Hmm.
I am a Christian.
God protects me from whatever evil is in the World.
If God allows something to happen to me, then it is my job to accept it (and know that God's destiny for me is to have had that happen).
It is not my job to decide what is evil.
(This pattern of thinking just leads to: Why does God allow bad things to happen to good people.)
This is just another Judgment . . . another Opinion.
I have NO Opinion about it.
What I do WITH that event happening to me is: Let Go. This happened, and that's that.
When I do not question why every event occurs, it allows me to look forward to the rest of my day.
This way, I live quietly.

Or, I can a strong Opinion about nearly everything.
I sit there, my mind racing along, going from thing to thing, and re-Deciding for myself just WHAT is wrong with the World.
I can feel that my Opinions are really performing a vital part of everyone else's Life.
When I talk to a friend, I can "teach" them about each of my Opinions.
If they agree with me, then they are OK.
Whew! At least he knows that THAT is True.
However, each time he disagrees with my idea of right-ness, I think he must be stupid (or un-caring, or crazy).

The way I see it, when I am with someone I like, I don't want to "waste" my valuable minutes by discussing things that don't matter ... to us, right here, right now.
And, I certainly don't want to give myself 10 Chances to think that he is stupid.
So, instead, we can discuss any of the other 1000s of Fun things (what I did, where I went, what we can go do).
I don't waste too much of my precious time with friends duscussing such judgments (at least, not any more).
Opinions (and judging things through them), is a fruitless endeavor.
Everyone spends a little time doing it (and some people spend most of their time doing it).
But, less is More.
Everything in Moderation.

 

[KalithAlur]

Dies:

Is not sinning to be some great chore, wherein you "exercise" your spiritual muscle resisting temptation, and eventually you just cave in?

I can see ways this might be true... To forgive, forgive, and finally you can't hold back the boiling rage within!

Or the celibate priest. At first it is easy to resist the impulse to touch or have sex. Gradually (because most modern churches fail to utilize readily available lust transcendence techniques, including meditation ball chopping and drugs designed to kill the sex drive), the priest develops more and more lust, and finally the poor fellow is prepared to have sex with anything!

So, point taken.

Let's just say I don't think it has to be that way. I think for some people, patience really is infinite.

the kind of love i'm talking about transcends slavery to self esteem, anger, or lust. There is a constant, unshakable sense of peace...

although, physical wounds could still be inflicted significant enuf to "rattle" the unconditionally-loving one, unless he/she happened, in addition to emotional control, to learn techniques of hardwiring his/her own nervous system and killing pain receptors (not impossible: this skill has been demonstrated, although not by me, nor to my satisfaction)

Solidly: I agree to disagree without arguing much.

the only thing I can't resist saying is, isn't it ethically irresponsible to wander around doing things without having justified your own ethics? Yet I refute my own argument - most ppl can't justify their own behavior anyway, beyond a series of reflections on the conditioning that's been pounded into them all their lives.

 

[dies-l]

Dies:

Is not sinning to be some great chore, wherein you "exercise" your spiritual muscle resisting temptation, and eventually you just cave in?

I can see ways this might be true... To forgive, forgive, and finally you can't hold back the boiling rage within!

Or the celibate priest. At first it is easy to resist the impulse to touch or have sex. Gradually (because most modern churches fail to utilize readily available lust transcendence techniques, including meditation ball chopping and drugs designed to kill the sex drive), the priest develops more and more lust, and finally the poor fellow is prepared to have sex with anything!

So, point taken.

Let's just say I don't think it has to be that way. I think for some people, patience really is infinite.

the kind of love i'm talking about transcends slavery to self esteem, anger, or lust. There is a constant, unshakable sense of peace...

although, physical wounds could still be inflicted significant enuf to "rattle" the unconditionally-loving one, unless he/she happened, in addition to emotional control, to learn techniques of hardwiring his/her own nervous system and killing pain receptors (not impossible: this skill has been demonstrated, although not by me, nor to my satisfaction)

I'm dropping into this thread mid-discussion, so plz forgive me if a repeat something that has already been stated.

There are a couple of points that I would like to make, here:

1) Definition of sin: I have noticed that my own understanding of sin seems to be different than that of many people here. I don't think mere compliance with a series of biblical proscriptions is indicative of a sinless life. If it were, then Jesus would have held the Pharisees in very high regard, and to Him, they would have been the object of great praise, rather than great criticism. So, while there is certainly an element of morality that consists of not murdering, not committing adultery, not engaging in pre/extra-marital sexual relations, not gossiping, etc...., this is not all there is to a sinless life. I believe that sin is anything in our lives that falls short of God's ideal: both what we do and what we don't do.

And, the moral standard laid down by Jesus is easy to recite, incredibly difficult to live by: (to paraphrase) love God with your whole being and love your neighbor as yourself. So, anytime that God is not at the center of our lives (our thoughts, our actions, etc.), we are living in sin. Anytime that we are not loving our neighbor as ourselves, we are sinning. So this, begs the question, what does love look like? For this, I think we need to look to the character of God, because God is love. The Bible shows us that love is willing to sacrifice everything, even life itself, if necessary. So, if we remain unwilling to sacrifice everything (finances, life, emotional security, etc.) to meet the needs of our neighbor, then we have sin in our lives.

For another definition of love, we can look to 1 Cor. 13: patient, kind, does not envy, does not boast, not proud, not rude, not self-seeking, not easily angered, keeps no record of wrongs, always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. So, when we are proud, we are not loving, and we are living in sin. When we fail to protect our neighbor, we are living in sin. When we lack hope or when we fail to persevere, we are living in sin. To summarize all of this, when we become aware of the needs of another and we fail to help, despite our ability to do so, then we fall short, we miss the mark, we sin.

So, when we understand that the bar is set this high, we can begin to understand the notion that Jesus was the only person to be free from sin. We should also come to the conclusion that if salvation were based on our ability to be free from sin, then none of us could be saved. Ultimately, we should realize that a sin-free life is impossible . . .

But, nothing is impossible with God, which brings me to my next point:

2) God's strength, not ours: All too often, it seems that discussions of morality focus around what I can do to not sin. For example, you talked about techniques that can be utilized to prevent masturbation and sex. The problem with this focus is that it assumes that sinlessness is a state that we can achieve if only we try hard enough. To this statement only begins to appear truthful if we lower our moral standard significantly below God's ideal. For example, perhaps it is possible to avoid masturbation and sex using various techniques (I am not familiar with any that you mentioned, but that is not important for this discussion). But, Jesus taught that merely abstaining from adulterous acts is not sufficient; we must also abstain from lustful thoughts. He taught that we should abstain from angry thoughts. And, ultimately, He taught that we should love everybody (especially our enemies) as we love ourselves. When we truly understand how high the bar is set, this is clearly not something that we can achieve by any human effort. I believe that God's standard is set so high that it is impossible to meet by human effort.

So, then what is a guy to do? It would seem quite cruel of God to set the standard impossibly high if His intent was for us to achieve sinlessness on our own. So, perhaps, we need to look to another rationale for God's standards. Perhaps, the reason that God has set the standard so high is so that we will come to a point where we realize our complete and utter dependence on Him. I don't think that He wants us to go about trying to fix ourselves and to stop sinning. Instead, I believe that He wants us to rely on Him to fix us and to remove sin from our lives. He wants us to let go and become completely dependent on Him. And, so He sets us up with a moral standard for us to aim for, which, if we are totally honest with ourselves, we know is impossible. And, then He stands ready, waiting to take over for us, as soon as we are willing to let go and submit, and to let Him control our lives. And, the thing of it is, He even seems to be able to work with us through incomplete submission. All we need is the faith of a mustard seed. Even when He knows that tomorrow we will take control right back from Him, He works through us in each moment that we allow Him to.

Moral perfection is not about what we do or don't do. It is about what God does through us. Christians will debate ad infinitum as to whether it is possible to be made perfect while we are still alive. I have my doubts about this, but I don't think that debate is really worth having. But, the one thing I do know is that it is impossible for us to achieve sinlessness in this life or the next. This is something that is only possible with God.

 

[KalithAlur]

I think unconditional love does motivate total selflessness.

One of the points I made earlier was that, since you are already fully united with God (God is omniscient), why not invite God to share as much God-Love with you as your present level of development permits?

Something I haven't said, paradise is in my opinion an achievable goal before you die, and it is a simple matter of "turning on" to focusless, unconditional love. "Lustful thoughts" ? "Angry thoughts" ? They literally no longer exist, and you are willing to sacrifice everything to help other people, Although it is conceivable somebody could still torture you into doing something you don't want by inflicting tremendous physical pain upon you.

I think being sinless, to the height you set the bar, is not so very difficult unless you defeat yourself by saying to yourself, "impossible! the bar is so high!"

yet I set the bar even higher. To sin means to miss the mark. How can your perception not miss the mark, when your perception is based on precious little bits of information that can't ever be proven to be accurate? The only way to live totally without sin, by my definition, is to so totally unite with God you perceive what God perceives - All the angles at once.