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The issue is that when Jesus spread the Gospel calling for us to repent, the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom, which is a Gospel that EO, OO, and Catholic Christians oppose.I am confident that EO, OO, and Catholic Christians argue that apostolic succession is the very life blood of perpetuating the gospel across the generations and that it is at the heart of evangelisation.
I’m not giving up. You are the one who brought up proof. I’m just asking what you will accept as proof. Apparently you haven’t thought it through. I’m giving you the opportunity to do so.Giving up before you start is a defeatist approach.
ABSURDITY you say , WHY ?With that kind of reasoning then all evangelism must be done by Jews. This is an absurdity. Why do you propose it in a serious discussion?
Jesus never said that Gentiles had to obey the law of Moses, nor that Gentile men should be circumcised.ABSURDITY you say , WHY ?
Matt 28 : 16 , by CONTEXT is speaking to the ELEVEN DISCIPLES who are all JEWS and in verse 19 , Jesus commissions them to TEACH and to ALL NATIONS // ETHNOS and what does that MEAN ??
Then in verse 19 to teach to OBSERVE all things whatsoever I have commanded and that is speaking about the Law of Moses and that means CIRCUMCISION >
Interesting, but what has that to do with the OP?Jesus never said that Gentiles had to obey the law of Moses, nor that Gentile men should be circumcised.
The OP question is "can it be proven that Jesus's teaching applies directly to Christians living today if he, in context, is addressing Jews, a first century crowd, or his own first century disciples? And if one argues that his words do indeed apply to Christians today then how does that hermeneutic principle reflect on the idea that What Jesus gifted to the apostles applies to the bishops of today who are regarded as successors to the apostles?Some say that "The Great Commission" is addressed to Christians living today, in fact many say it and say also it was addressed to Christian in every age. The same goes for the Sermon on the mount. And for a great many of Jesus' sayings and lessons which were addressed to the apostles, or the disciples, or the Jews of his time, or the crowds of his time. Can you prove it? Why ought anyone take that perspective? And what about "apostolic succession", will you arguments justify or destroy belief in apostolic succession?
I wasn't addressing the OP, I was responding to another post.Interesting, but what has that to do with the OP?
It is for Christians living today, just as the whole NT is. No one says "we don't need to read the Gospels/epistles because they were written to people who died before we were born."The OP question is "can it be proven that Jesus's teaching applies directly to Christians living today
Jesus didn't "gift" this to his disciples - he told them to go out, tell others about him and make disciples.And if one argues that his words do indeed apply to Christians today then how does that hermeneutic principle reflect on the idea that What Jesus gifted to the apostles applies to the bishops of today who are regarded as successors to the apostles?
Exactly. And we see that 12 thrones are reserved especially for them.1. Apostolic succession is only recorded in the Bible for Judas. Even James was not "replaced" according to scripture.
It has nothing to do with Jews or gentiles. Nearly all of the successors of the apostles today are gentiles.
But when you see a person claiming to be carrying out the great commission simply ask them how many people they've baptized.
It is interesting how people read words but to not notice what they say.It has nothing to do with Jews or gentiles. Nearly all of the successors of the apostles today are gentiles.
But when you see a person claiming to be carrying out the great commission simply ask them how many people they've baptized.
To be fair, anyone can baptise - as in emergency baptism of an infants, for example. But in practice it is almost never done by anyone other than the clergy.the evangelical people I have met who have claimed that they fulfil this passage usually do not administer baptism
So, how many people have you personally baptised?To be fair, anyone can baptise - as in emergency baptism of an infants, for example. But in practice it is almost never done by anyone other than the clergy.
As a lay preacher I am allowed to baptise, though no one ever asks me. But I suspect that were I to explain the Gospel to someone, they became a Christian, wanted to be baptised and I went and dunked them in the River Dee, someone would either complain or say that it wasn't a valid baptism.
Making disciples, though, is something that should be done by all Christians.
None - no one's asked me.So, how many people have you personally baptised?
Hello Xeno, interestingly, you forgot two of the Lord's commands in your breakdown of v19, did you not (the two 'principal' commands of the Great Commission, actually), "Go" and "Make Disciples"Teach, baptise, observe commandments, and then a promise to be with them all days until the consummation of the world.
I believe that it is possible to participate in/help fulfil The Great Commission without completing every part of it in each person's life.the evangelical people I have met who have claimed that they fulfil this passage usually do not administer baptism and teach very little, some of them teach people not to observe the commandments because that's "Old Testament" and "you're justified by faith alone" they say. They could not be more wrong, and less faithful to the words of Christ. One hopes that their pastors do better.
The Sermon on the mount starts in Matt 5 and goes through Matt 7.Some say that "The Great Commission" is addressed to Christians living today, in fact many say it and say also it was addressed to Christian in every age. The same goes for the Sermon on the mount.
Those two texts above make it very clear.Can you prove it? Why ought anyone take that perspective?
Hello @Xeno.of.athens, your OP title question was, "can you prove it?". Well, now that you've seen a bit more of what the Bible has to say (though granted, there is MUCH more), and what the Catholic Church teaches about ongoing lay evangelism, as well, have we done enough to "prove it" to you?Does the EOC have similar beliefs/teachings regarding lay witnessing/preaching/evangelism by its congregants [that the RCC does]? Surely it must!??
Not really, evangelisation is a lay role as well as a clergy role but the great commission with its command to teach and baptise is aimed at the clergy rather than the laity.Hello @Xeno.of.athens, your OP title question was, "can you prove it?". Well, now that you've seen a bit more of what the Bible has to say (though granted, there is MUCH more), and what the Catholic Church teaches about ongoing lay evangelism, as well, have we done enough to "prove it" to you?
Matthew 28:Some say that "The Great Commission" is addressed to Christians living today, in fact many say it and say also it was addressed to Christian in every age. The same goes for the Sermon on the mount. And for a great many of Jesus' sayings and lessons which were addressed to the apostles, or the disciples, or the Jews of his time, or the crowds of his time. Can you prove it? Why ought anyone take that perspective? And what about "apostolic succession", will you arguments justify or destroy belief in apostolic succession?
Where did the idea of clergy/laity divide come from? Not from the Bible.Not really, evangelisation is a lay role as well as a clergy role but the great commission with its command to teach and baptise is aimed at the clergy rather than the laity.
As a note concerning the title, it is not so much about proving anything as raising the question "does what Jesus said apply to subsequent generations?" and the implication is that if it does then apostolic succession is encompassed by the same hermeneutic.
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