Can you loose your salvation?

[Petruchio]

I am greatly confused. Had been of us doesn't imply that they were never of us. It could refer to any point in the past tense, right? How does 'had been of us" mean "never had been of us"?

The had is part of the phrase "if they had been of us," from the full statement "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us:".

The Apostle is making an argument that these men who were "not of us," though they visibly left, had never been of us, exactly as it says. The "point in the past" is the false proposition that they had ever been of us, which is what you are arguing. Hence the "if," and the explanation "they would have remained with us" IF they "had been of us."

How does had been refer to their originally joining the group, rather then their point of departure?

You have to connect "had" into the sentence to figure this out.

 

[Second Phoenix]

The had is part of the phrase "if they had been of us," from the full statement "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us:".

The Apostle is making an argument that these men who were "not of us," though they visibly left, had never been of us, exactly as it says. The "point in the past" is the false proposition that they had ever been of us, which is what you are arguing. Hence the "if," and the explanation "they would have remained with us" IF they "had been of us."



You have to connect "had" into the sentence to figure this out.

How does had imply never? They could have not been of us from their point of departure to their point of arrival. I don't see how you can add the word 'never' to scripture to say 'never had been of us'.

 

[Petruchio]

How does had imply never? They could have not been of us from their point of departure to their point of arrival.

Are you sure we're arguing about the same verse? What do you mean "they could have not been of us from their point of departure to their point of arrival?" That sounds exactly like what we're trying to get across. They were "not of us" from their point of departure, despite their visible membership in the church, which was only made manifest once they apostatized.

 

[Second Phoenix]

I am guessing that you and I are in agreement then- they were no longer of us from their departure. That is not the same as saying they were never of us.

 

[Petruchio]

I am guessing that you and I are in agreement then- they were no longer of us from their departure. That is not the same as saying they were never of us.

I didn't understand your sentence, hence why I asked you to explain it. But now I see the careful phrase "FROM their departure," in other words, you still disagree with the Apostle's argument.

 

[TreverSlyFox]

God made the deal: John 3:16

Your salvation is not of your own doing other than accepting it from God. You'll notice in John 3:16 there are no conditions except one Belief. If you are truly saved exactly what can YOU do to un-save yourself? God is the one doing the saving, not you and once in His hand NOTHING can take you from it. Or does God lie?

 

[Petruchio]

God made the deal: John 3:16

Your salvation is not of your own doing other than accepting it from God.

I must go even further to say, that even you accepting it is itself a gift from God, since, in Christ's explanation to the unbelievers on why they did not believe, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father" (John 6:65).

 

[turned around]

Hi,
Lets try enjoying our salvation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Bluelion]

I have known, as I am sure you have known, good speakers, who do good works, that later left the faith. These people were the same as any, if not at times better, so how can one be assured of their salvation?



How do we determine if what they say is of the bible, other than our own interpretation of scripture - which is formed by language, experience, beliefs, etc?



But some teach what the bible says, that is to say they teach according to the other saved persons. So how can that be a determination?



I think they view the two contradicting creation accounts as metaphors of how man came into being. How do we know which creation account is true? There is the northern kingdom and southern kingdom accounts which were combined by the Torah editors. Which is the right one?



But I know people that truly professed and believes this, only to become heathens. I am quite confused?

1st there are not many different interpretations that is a world view, and we do not relied on our own knowledge but The Holy Spirit. There is what God meant. One reason there are schools teaching this. The problem is everyone is on a different level, because they don't get it now does not mean they never will.

You say people profess the things I listed to know if you were saved yet are heathen. They did not accept Jesus in there heart, but were playing lip service. They said those things not because they believe them, but because they would get praise from others. Like i said If you love Jesus in your heart. You do have those saved who wonders off, and Jesus goes after them.

I would spend more time in Gods word and worry less about other people for now if I were you.

 

[Skala]

So what about all those people that said they were saved, were genuinely prayerful and believed themselves to be saved, only to leave Christianity?

2He taught them many things by parables, and in his teaching said: 3“Listen! A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root.

They were never truly regenerate. They were outwardly converted, but not inwardly.

 

[Bluelion]

God made the deal: John 3:16

Your salvation is not of your own doing other than accepting it from God. You'll notice in John 3:16 there are no conditions except one Belief. If you are truly saved exactly what can YOU do to un-save yourself? God is the one doing the saving, not you and once in His hand NOTHING can take you from it. Or does God lie?

Yeah it takes more than just believing, demons believe Jesus is the son of God, and he died on the cross and was resurrected, and that his death is sufficient payment for sins. Yet demons can never be saved.

It takes a realization of your wicked sinful state and the need for God. It is a complete surrender of one self to God. Loving God in your heart and not just paying lip service.

You can not take one line from salvation and say it is it, you must read all the lines about salvation through out the Bible, and after a person gets saved they are commanded to be baptized.

so your one verse does not give a clear picture, just like you cannot know what a book is about by reading one line in that book.