Can you have sexual arousal without lust?

[JoeyArnold]

It doesn't say any sex other than with your one wife.... someone added that.

How many wives did Solomon have?

 

[hedrick]

Luke 22:15 And he said unto them , With desire 1939 I have desired 1937 to eat this passover with you before I suffer:

I checked in TDNT, which is a much more detailed lexicon than Strong's (and more up to date). What they say is that it typically means an illicit desire, but there are also examples when it's a normal desire. The older Greek meaning is neutral but from the time of Plato it came to have a negative connotation. Unfortunately you have to tell from the context. All interpreters that I've seen believe that in Mat 5:28 the reference is to improper desire. Luke 22:15 is an example of a normal desire.

 

[walk the talk]

There are topical aids like Zestra that might be of interest or you might go to a sex therapist. Its not healthy for you, in my opinion, to just try to do something like sex out of a sense of duty... and to be honest, as a husband, it would turn me off and I'd walk away. I would view it as my duty as a wife to assist my husband in learning to be a good lover, which includes many things, but especially that he assist the wife in climaxing as many times as she wants to until she's satisfied. Obviously, it should already be in his mind to love his wife in this way and not seek his own pleasure at the expense of her. All of this is pretty commonplace knowledge now, so I don't know why I'm talking about it. I'll add this: I would be concerned if I was engaged to a girl who told me that she never masturbated to [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]. See christiannymphos.org if interested in Christian women who pursue sexual happiness.

Wow, I couldn't have said it better myself

 

[walk the talk]

God tells us to multiply but to also resist the two trees.

Hi Joey, welcome back.

 

[Johnnz]

I checked in TDNT, which is a much more detailed lexicon than Strong's (and more up to date). What they say is that it typically means an illicit desire, but there are also examples when it's a normal desire. The older Greek meaning is neutral but from the time of Plato it came to have a negative connotation. Unfortunately you have to tell from the context. All interpreters that I've seen believe that in Mat 5:28 the reference is to improper desire. Luke 22:15 is an example of a normal desire.

Lexicons are useful tools. But they have two limitations.

a) Many lexicons were compiled some time ago, and our knowledge of the relevant languages has increased since then.

b) Modern exegetical thinking has highlighted the importance of context, especially the cultural context of any text. That in turn has has altered the way we come to understand the text. For example. Tom Wight's (and others) considering the phrase 'the righteousness of God' to mean the righteousness of God rather than the righteousness we receive from God is an axample of this point.

c) Grammar is just as important. One great example of the importance of grammar can be seen from that well known verse about lusting in Matthew.
Here is what some scholars have said:

"This single sentence is among the most damagingly misunderstood in the entire scriptural record. Much hinges on a proper translation of the key phrase pros to epithymesai. Most modem translations miss the critical dimension of intent that is implicit here. For example, the NRSV reads "everyone who looks at a woman with lust" compare the NIV - "anyone who looks at a woman lustfully." The KJV actually captures the nuance more adequately: "whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her." Donald Hagner has it just about right: "everyone who looks at a woman with the purpose of lusting after her" (Matthew 1-13, 119). Guelich translates the phrase "in order to desire having her (sexually)," emphasizing the aspect of possession of what belongs to another (Sermon on the Mount, 193-94).

This small matter of exegesis and translation is no small matter at all. The more common and less accurate translation has contributed greatly to an idealistic/unrealistic rendering of Jesus' teaching. If Jesus is saying that the first spark of attraction one has to another person is the equivalent of the act of adultery, then surely the average adult---especially the average male-has committed many such acts. If so, the teaching of Jesus is intended simply to shame us or to show us how far we are from the perfection he demands.

However, this is not the nature of Jesus' teaching. If we read his teaching instead as concrete direction concerning how to do God's will and thus enjoy kingdom existence here and now, then he must mean something like what the Greek text actually seems to say. Jesus is identifying an act of human will (or a pattern of human wilfulness) which leads us in the direction of violating God's will and thus ensnaring ourselves in misery." [FONT=&quot]Kingdom Ethics By Stassen & Gushee[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]John[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]NZ
[/FONT]

 

[dayhiker]

I agree with you. The way the lust in Mat.5:28 is talked about my most people came to bother me so much that I went and looked up every verse in the Bible that had the verse in it. I think it was 16, so not a big job. I found most of them are neutral or positive which left the evil desires this word is used to describe in the Bible as being in the minority. If I remember correctly Mat.5:28 was the only context that was clearly sexual.

I checked in TDNT, which is a much more detailed lexicon than Strong's (and more up to date). What they say is that it typically means an illicit desire, but there are also examples when it's a normal desire. The older Greek meaning is neutral but from the time of Plato it came to have a negative connotation. Unfortunately you have to tell from the context. All interpreters that I've seen believe that in Mat 5:28 the reference is to improper desire. Luke 22:15 is an example of a normal desire.

 

[walk the talk]

Thanks for all the work guys. I guess everyone has there part to play in making a really great thread.

 

[JoeyArnold]

The Bible says that our very best is still sin in & of ourselves alone.

 

[walk the talk]

The Bible says that our very best is still sin in & of ourselves alone.

Amen Brother

 

[JoeyArnold]

Amen Brother

The Bible doesn't directly deal with smoking.

 

[walk the talk]

There are topical aids like Zestra that might be of interest or you might go to a sex therapist. Its not healthy for you, in my opinion, to just try to do something like sex out of a sense of duty... and to be honest, as a husband, it would turn me off and I'd walk away. I would view it as my duty as a wife to assist my husband in learning to be a good lover, which includes many things, but especially that he assist the wife in climaxing as many times as she wants to until she's satisfied. Obviously, it should already be in his mind to love his wife in this way and not seek his own pleasure at the expense of her. All of this is pretty commonplace knowledge now, so I don't know why I'm talking about it. I'll add this: I would be concerned if I was engaged to a girl who told me that she never masturbated to [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]. See christiannymphos.org if interested in Christian women who pursue sexual happiness.

Well put ecbblmstr, I couldn't say it any better myself

 

[walk the talk]

The Bible doesn't directly deal with smoking.

You then have to use your common sense that God has freely allowed us to use. Is it good for you or the people around you? No, then stop

 

[gasman64]

I have just come across this thread - a late starter

Terms are important.

We must distinguish between human sexuality and sexual morality. We were created to be sexual beings - gender, sex organs, internal 'wiring'. That's human sexuality. It is what we do with our God given sexuality that constitutes the moral aspects of sex.

Sexual interest, thoughts and physical responses are normal. We must accept them for what they are, like hunger, tiredness etc, components of being human. None of that is 'flesh' or 'fleshly lusts' as many seem to believe. We err greatly when we convert a normal part of being human into something corrupt.

Wrong lust requires both desire and intent to act wrongly. Many natural sexual responses happen, but do not have either of these two essential moral components, and therefore are not to be considered 'lust'.

It appears to me that many Christians equate sexual interest/arousal as constituting 'sinful lust'. That is wrong, and potentially harmful.

It requires healthy and wholesome sexual values and concepts to fulfil our sexual capacity as God intends. One can have moral sex i.e. sex with one's spouse, that is merely mechanical, one sided, boring - OK morally, but bad sex. One can have great sex outside of God's principles - OK sex but bad morally. Good sex, in a biblical sense, is sex within a committed relationship that delights, refreshes, communicates, enlivens, exhausts, enriches, gives and receives physical pleasure and satisfies the inner depths of each person. And on many occasions, just fun too.

John
NZ

Well posted from a fellow kiwi. Auckland here. (westie)

 

[gasman64]

God tells us to multiply but to also resist the two trees.

Joey. Stick to the point. The 2 trees have nothing to do with God's first commandment.

 

[WinBySurrender]

Ah....... a breath of fresh scriptural air in the midst of the bellowings of churchianity and confusion.

There is no sin of masturbation and "lust" is simply the word "desire" in the Bible.

Nice try, but not quite. There are 10 different words translated "lust" in the New Testament, and only one of them can mean simple desire. Click on the word and you will not only see the definition but also the list of uses and in which books.

• Epithumeo
  to turn upon a thing to have a desire for, long for, to desire to lust after, covet of those who seek things forbidden lust after1, faini
• Epithumia
  desire, craving, longing, desire for what is forbidden, lust lust after1
• Epithumetes
  one who longs for, a craver, lover, one eager for lust after+( 1510 )&version=kjv1
• Epipotheo
  to long for, desire to pursue with love, to long after to lust, harbour forbidden desire
• Aselgeia
  unbridled lust, excess, licentiousness, lasciviousness, wantonness, outrageousness, shamelessness, insolence
• Epipotheo
  to long for, desire to pursue with love, to long after to lust, harbour forbidden desire
• Orexis
  desire, longing, craving for eager desire, lust, appetite used both in a good and a bad sense, as well of natural and lawful and even of proper cravings (of appetite for food), also of corrupt and unlawful desires
• Porneuo
  to prostitute one's body to the lust of another to give one's self to unlawful sexual intercourse to commit fornication metaph. to be given to idolatry, to worship idols to permit one's self to be drawn away by another into idolatry
• Porne
  a woman who sells her body for sexual uses a prostitute, a harlot, one who yields herself to defilement for the sake of gain any woman indulging in unlawful sexual intercourse, whether for gain or for lust metaph. an idolatress of "Babylon" i.e. Rome, the chief seat of idolatry
• Pornos
  a man who prostitutes his body to another's lust for hire a male prostitute a man who indulges in unlawful sexual intercourse, a fornicator

It is not a sinful or sexual term, unless the context says so.

Again, for the reasons listed above, false.

Matt. 5:28 does not condemn "lusting" for women, only married women* ...

Also false. The context includes all women, not just married women.

... or any other forbidden sexual coupling.

And again, false. This is a Hebrew idiom, the word used of those who at a woman's solicitation are drawn away to idolatry, literally to the eating of things sacrificed to idols but metaphorically all things coming between a man and God are idols. That includes illicit sex of any kind.

the word is used of those who at a woman's solicitation are drawn away to idolatry, i.e. to the eating of things sacrificed to idols. If you don't know what things are forbidden sexually, read Leviticus 18... and NO, it doesn't say any sex other than with your one wife.... someone added that.

Proof please. Otherwise this looks like a pathetic effort to justify sin. Which it is.

 

[JoeyArnold]

Amen Brother

The Bible doesn't directly deal with smoking.

 

[JoeyArnold]

Joey. Stick to the point. The 2 trees have nothing to do with God's first commandment.

Shall we sin that grace may abound?

 

[Johnnz]

Nice try, but not quite. There are 10 different words translated "lust" in the New Testament, and only one of them can mean simple desire. Click on the word and you will not only see the definition but also the list of uses and in which books.

Again, for the reasons listed above, false. Also false. The context includes all women, not just married women.And again, false. This is a Hebrew idiom, the word used of those who at a woman's solicitation are drawn away to idolatry, literally to the eating of things sacrificed to idols but metaphorically all things coming between a man and God are idols. That includes illicit sex of any kind.Proof please. Otherwise this looks like a pathetic effort to justify sin. Which it is.

Methinks the man doth protest too much.

The central issue is what Greek word is used in Matt 5:28, not what other Greek words may be used elsewhere, or how each was translated.

The Greek word used in this verse is epithumeo. That word is used 16 times in the NT.
Matthew 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Matthew 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
Luke 15:16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.
Luke 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luke 17:22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
Luke 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
Acts 20:33 I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.
Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Romans 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
1 Corinthians 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
1 Timothy 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
Hebrews 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
James 4:2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
1 Peter 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
Revelation 9:6 nd in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

On your second point adultery refers only to someone who is married. The context is interesting too. There is a section in law keeping, beginning with Matt 5:17-18 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. We then see Jesus challenging them on their traditions as misrepresenting the true spirit of the law, which Jesus exposes in four places 5:27,33, 38 7 43, each beginning with the words "You have heard.."

The pericopes beginning at v 27 and 33 are related. Both push the Pharisees further into their duplicity regarding divorce and remarriage. Adultery is right at the centre of Jesus teaching with the male religious leaders squarely in His sights.

John
NZ

 

[WinBySurrender]

Methinks the man doth protest too much.

The central issue is what Greek word is used in Matt 5:28, not what other Greek words may be used elsewhere, or how each was translated.

And as I pointed out, there is no limitation to "married women only" in that passage, so he is wrong, and so are you. You both want to jump on "desire" as the definitive word in the translation, but this kind of "desire" is sinful. It is lust. Call it what you want, but that won't change what the word means.

 

[JoeyArnold]

Desire is only lust if we go after the wrong things the wrong ways for the wrong reasons.