Can you hate the sin?

[CrownCaster]

I've basically said that I have no interest in debating this topic, it has nothing to do with this thread. The legal argument is fundamentally flawed anyway, I don't even need to comment on it. What does apply here is your comment "We cannot vascillate on that because people are going to hell...." As long as we keep telling homosexuals they are going to hell, they will never want anything to do with our message.

Fluffy gospel is not my style. God said it so why should we shy away from it? Seeker friendly only leaves some of God's counsel out.

Christ told us not to judge,

Big difference between being judgmental and standing firm on the Word of God.

 

[SimplyMe]

Fluffy gospel is not my style. God said it so why should we shy away from it? Seeker friendly only leaves some of God's counsel out.

I see you posted a very substantive response. Unable to counter my words with the acts of Jesus, it would appear that you are reduced to calling my approach, "fluffy."

Big difference between being judgmental and standing firm on the Word of God.

The problem is, I can guarantee you that with that attitude, most non-Christians you try to "love" will believe they are being judged by a hypocrite.

 

[SimplyMe]

Fluffy gospel is not my style. God said it so why should we shy away from it? Seeker friendly only leaves some of God's counsel out.

Big difference between being judgmental and standing firm on the Word of God.

After I posted the above, I found this in a post on another thread:

Since I began posting here I have received no less than nine death threats by Christians. I have been accused of molesting children. i am told daily that I do not deserve equal rights. Do I think all Christians are hatful people? No. I am however believing that most Christians are however.

This is the point I wanted to make above and why I think we're doing it wrong. Here's the perfect example of someone feeling that most Christians hate instead of love. Heaven forbid we are "fluffy."

 

[CrownCaster]

I see you posted a very substantive response. Unable to counter my words with the acts of Jesus, it would appear that you are reduced to calling my approach, "fluffy."

Yes, your highly developed mind leaves me feeling so low and unworthy that I choose to find other ways of dealing with this so as to bring up my self esteem. I'm not worthy!

The problem is, I can guarantee you that with that attitude, most non-Christians you try to "love" will believe they are being judged by a hypocrite.

That is their problem. When God chooses to open their eyes, they need to know the whole counsel of God to make their choice and if telling them what God says is true in His Word is offensive, the offend I will.

 

[Buzz Dixon]

the bible was the primary source of justification for slavery and after emancipation the bible was used to justify segregation, violence against blacks and all forms of discrimination. Please don’t insult those who were victims of this discrimination by pretending otherwise.


Bigotry biblically justified is still bigotry

Brief history lesson: Racism is the product of the European Enlightenment. The Enlightenment correctly perceived that forced servitude -- unless the punishment for a crime -- was wrong, but the people who were Enlightened didn't want to give up their cushy lifestyles by freeing their slaves.

Hence, they rationalized that people who were slaves (primarily Africans in the Middle East, Europe, and the Americas) were mentally and biologically inferior to the whites and asians who owned them. While chauvanism clearly existed prior to this (i.e., "My tribe/culture/nation/city-state is the best"), the racism of the Enlightenment was a new and particularlly virulent form of bigotry.

While some used the Bible to justify slavery, the truth is that the Bible repeatedly speaks out against slavery, holding indentured servants to limited periods of service, and telling masters to treat their slaves on Earth with kindness and justly since the earthly masters have their own master in heaven who will judge them. Finally, Paul pretty much explicitly pointed out that to God -- and hence to one another Christians -- there was no male or female, rich or poor, Jew or Gentile, master or slave: All are equal in His eyes.

Racism is the product of human selfishness by way of the Enlightenment, not Christianity. Conversely, virtually every abolitionist was a Christian.

 

[Buzz Dixon]

It suddenly popped into my head the absolute proof that it is possiblke to love the sinner yet hate the sin.

I hate my sins: They are wrong and I feel stupid and ashamed when I keep going back to bad old patterns of behavior.

But I love myself.

 

[OneManSows]

This is the point I wanted to make above and why I think we're doing it wrong. Here's the perfect example of someone feeling that most Christians hate instead of love. Heaven forbid we are "fluffy."

You are too quick to believe the lie that the problem is christians hating non-christians. The reality of the situation is this:

John 15:18-25. "If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, "A servant is not greater than his master." If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also. But all these things they will do to you for My name's sake, because they do not know Him who sent Me. If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. He who hates Me hates My Father also. ... They hated Me without cause."

These people hate without cause. They hate the message, and therefore they hate the messenger. It matters not what the form of your delivery is. It is the essense of the message that causes the offense. If you are nervous about the hatred you're getting back when you deliver the righteous message of hope, perhaps you could pray for more courage, knowing that this is what you should expect, rather than be surprised by it.

As to the style of delivery:

Jude 17-23. "But you, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ: how they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts. These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit. But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. And on some have compassion, making a distinction; but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh."

There's that word again. Hate. Milk toast for all isn't proper. It may be okay for some, but others need a stronger message.

When we speak, we speak as God's ambassadors. We are His agents speaking with His authority. I don't care if an unbeliever doesn't accept what I have to say. My only concern is that whenever and however I deliver the message, I do it for the right reason. That reason being to minister grace to them. God spoke with an angry voice to Moses. Was He sinning just because He used an angry voice? Obviously not. So don't assume that just because a believer uses an angry voice to express righteous indignation, that they are sinning. Rest assured, you can minister grace with an angry voice. You are in fact giving them that warning they need to hear so they can change their stinkin thinkin and accept God's view of reality. Now that's grace. And if they take offense, count it a privilege to share in the rejection that Christ has experienced every day since the first sin. What did He do wrong to get such a response? Don't judge the quality of the delivery by the response of any particular individual or group of individuals.

 

[an7222]

Bluntly: judgement is a scapegoat for ratred! Judge not, and you won't be judged.

 

[OneManSows]

Once again I will point you to I Corinthians chapters 2-5, where it says, among other things, "a spiritual man judges all things", and, "For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside God judges. Therefore put away from among yourselves that evil person." These Corinthians had the same imbalance so many have today. They misunderstand the instruction of Christ to judge not, lest you be judged. That's talking about speculating concerning the hearts and motives of others in situations you know nothing about. It's not talking about condemning things that are clearly wrongs which you see with your own eyes. If you see someone steal a bunch of clothes from a store, are you really going to sit back and say, I don't know if it's wrong? Let's start using some common sense here. I may not know why they did it, they may have thought they had a good reason, but I can certainly condemn what they did. It's wrong.

 

[jesusfreak3786]

I have heard, over and over, that religious people should “Love the sinner but hate the sin.” It’s almost a mantra among many Christians and how they attempt to deal with “sinners”. Recently I’ve come to disagree with it; I’m finding that it doesn’t work and, further, isn’t even Biblical.

The idea isn’t a bad one. The idea, from what I can tell, originally meant that we should abstain from sin and help the sinner. The problem is, due to the wording, it has become a way for people to excuse their behavior for how they treat people they view as sinners. It also isn’t the way Christ taught to help people. The examples we have of Christ teaching are that he didn’t judge others. After saving the woman from being stoned, he simply told her to “go and sin no more.” He didn’t tell her that she was evil for committing adultery, he didn’t even tell her what sins she should no longer commit.

More to the point, he stopped a valid punishment from occurring. The religious law was clear, if a person was found in adultery they were to be stoned. But instead of condemning the woman, instead he caused the accusers to condemn themselves, “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.”

In best cases, the people who use “love the sinner but...” are setting themselves up as judge. They can’t ever get over the idea that they are talking to a sinner. They can’t help but feel that they are better than the individual they are trying to help. And, because of this, as long as they keep this idea they can never truly love the sinner. Only by seeing the “sinner” as a good person, as someone equal to themselves, can they ever begin to love them. As long as they see the person as a sinner, it just isn’t possible.

Worse, many seem to think that if the “love the sinner,” since they are already the judge, they then have the some right to act as jury. At times it may even resort to violence. Some people, deluded by the idea they are helping the sinner, will physically hurt the sinner. In their mind they delude themselves with the idea that “I’m only doing this for your own good.”

Most, though, are not that extreme, they won’t ever use violence. Instead they’ll use language that only hurts them, that the sinner finds hateful. Once again, the Christian won’t understand they are hurting, they are only doing it because they care.

We need to learn to “love our neighbor,” as Christ taught. Until we realize that we each have our burdens, that we are all sinners, and that we can love one another despite our differences can we ever become true Christians.

I hate sin!!!!!!!!! Hate it Hate it hate it!!!!!!!! I hate the sin in my own body and soul yet I love my self also. I hate myself(the sinnful self) and i love myself(that which God has put in me). I am one that hates the sin of every thing that is capable of sin, yet I love every single person also. It is possable to hate a persons sin and love at the sime time. When I talk to a person I am indeed aware of there sin, but I am also aware of my own sin. In fear of God, to judge them would be to judge myself. I would die for the glory of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ, hoping for God's pleasure first, and second hoping that another soul may be saved thru the exaple made of me by God. I will never stop hating sin and sin comes from satan and is manifested in man. I thank God that he has given revinue for sin to be purged from the very essence of my existance.