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Can you force a person to be good? (Thought experiment)

The Engineer

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Assuming that Peter is morally competent--that he truly incurs the guilt of his deeds--then no, I would not.
Actually, I was thinking of someone who's not even capable of feeling guilt.

Peter is not ill.
Depends on whether you regard sociopathy as pathological.

He does not need some sort of medical treatment.
True, he does not need it.

Peter is what he has chosen to become,
No one has chosen to be born without a conscience.

and he should have to live with the consequences, including his own callous conscience and atrophied/ill-developed moral sensibilities.
I don't think a sociopath will have a problem living with his guilt and lack of conscience.

He is still free to repent of his crimes even without the magic empathy machine.
He won't be interested in repentance, though.

I will say that I cannot see a sufficiently good reason to say that he would not be the same person. That being the case, I think it would be plausible to say that he would be the same person.
I'd disagree. There's a huge difference between some mass murderer without a conscience and your Average Joe.

Well, I wouldn't pull the switch in the first place, but if someone else were to do it, the treatment by itself wouldn't absolve his guilt (assuming he's the same person).
As I said, I don't think this assumption works.

He would still have to be truly sorry for what he's done (of course, this would be much easier with his radically altered disposition).
Actually, I don't even see why he should feel sorry for it, because the Peter V2 didn't commit those crimes.

The real injustice, it seems to me, would be to give him a decent, moral disposition when he's done nothing to earn it.
Why does one have to earn a moral disposition? It's not like that's a privilege, or anything.

It would be an offense against his free will.
I don't believe in free will, but I'd say that it would be an offense against his right to live. After all, he would become a wholly different person after the procedure.

We are--and ought to be--who we choose to be by the choices we make throughout our lives.
Who we are is not completely determined by our choices, though. As I said, no one has chosen what brain he's born with.

No one has a right to take that away from us.
Agree with that.

In short, then, a moral disposition may be artificially imposed upon Peter, but doing so would be very unjust to him.
Agree with that, too.

Must have been half asleep when I wrote this. There's actually a fourth condition that would change matters significantly, namely:

4) the deterrent of would-be offenders.

Like the first two conditions, it's neither necessary nor sufficient for just penal incarceration, neither by itself, nor jointly with either or both of the first two, but it might serve as a sufficient reason to go ahead and punish Peter, rather than set him loose.

The reason is that would-be offenders might think they can go ahead and offend, and that they would just be let off the hook scot-free if they undergo the empathy machine procedure. Going ahead and punishing Peter would show them that they would not.
I don't think deterrence is a sufficient reason to punish an innocent person. Whether Peter V2 is innocent is another matter, though, but I think so.
 
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Ken-1122

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Would you pull the switch?
]Yes without hesitation
Do you think Peter would remain the same person if you did so?
I hope not! Hopefully he is a better person now.
Would you still send him into prison, or do you think it would absolve him of his guilt?
]It wouldn’t absolve him of guilt, but it may absolve him of future guilt
Most importantly, would you regard Peter as a moral person, even though he didn't decide to be one?
[]Yes
 
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Crandaddy

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Actually, I was thinking of someone who's not even capable of feeling guilt.

Yes, I see now that you put "sociopathic" in your OP. For whatever reason, that word just didn't register. I think I was more focused on the questions in your last paragraph.

If Peter is a true sociopath, then he might not be morally competent, and if he's not morally competent, then I don't think he can be held guilty. Not being a sociopath, myself, and not having studied sociopaths, I'm not sure to what extent they can really be held morally accountable for their actions.

Peter's sociopathy might change my mind about pulling the switch. Such a condition would be more like an illness in need of treatment, assuming (as seems reasonable) that it's a condition imposed upon him without his freely-chosen consent. Still, however, I would not subject him to the treatment without his consent, and the procedure must cause more good than harm. It must not, for example, horrifically mutilate his brain like a lobotomy.

I'd disagree. There's a huge difference between some mass murderer without a conscience and your Average Joe.
There's a huge difference between those two types of psychological disposition, yes. But I don't see why this would necessarily entail that one and the same individual subject might not be the subject of both at different times. For there to be a psychological disposition at all, it must needs be the psychological disposition of an individual subject of experience, but I don't see why we can't have with Peter V2 the same individual subject with a radically altered disposition.

By the way, if we have good reason to believe that the individual subject Peter V1 will be essentially killed and that Peter V2 will be a completely different individual, then I would not approve of pulling the switch.

Why does one have to earn a moral disposition? It's not like that's a privilege, or anything.
I would say that those of us who have normal, properly-functioning moral faculties have the ability not only to choose to perform particular moral or immoral acts, but also the ability to shape and mold our character according to virtuous or vicious traits. We can train ourselves to be habitually good or habitually evil, basically. I would say that we are rightly entitled to whatever habits (whether good or evil) we choose to train ourselves into, and that no one--not even we, ourselves--may justly remove them from us by such a method as you propose.

If Peter were not a sociopath and had chosen to start himself on his evil course despite knowing full well how evil it was, and if he had willfully allowed such habitual behavior to sear his conscience and damage his natural moral sensibilities, then he should have to live with these consequences. Of course, he might decide that he doesn't like the monster he's made himself into and resolve himself to change, but he should have to do it the hard way by habitually reshaping his character. He should not be given an easy fix with the empathy machine.

Who we are is not completely determined by our choices, though. As I said, no one has chosen what brain he's born with.
No, not completely, but we are who we choose to be in the ways that matter most, I would say.

I don't think deterrence is a sufficient reason to punish an innocent person. Whether Peter V2 is innocent is another matter, though, but I think so.
No, it wouldn't be a sufficient reason to punish an innocent person. But again, if we have good reason to believe that Peter V2 would be a completely different individual person, then I don't think we should pull the switch. And also again, if Peter V1 is a true sociopath, then he might not have the requisite moral competence for guilt, anyway. So, it seems there might not be any reason to punish either version of Peter (depending, of course, on whether and to what degree a sociopath may be held morally accountable).
 
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bricklayer

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I'm bored, so I decided to post a little thought experiment.

Lets say you have a sociopath, sadistic mass murderer (let's call him Peter) and a machine that could turn him into an empathic good guy. I'm not merely talking about forcing him to do good, as was the case in A Clockwork Orange. I'm talking about pulling a switch and turning Peter into an honestly decent person.

Would you pull the switch? Do you think Peter would remain the same person if you did so? Would you still send him into prison, or do you think it would absolve him of his guilt? Most importantly, would you regard Peter as a moral person, even though he didn't decide to be one?

Jesus said, "Why do you call me good; only God is good? You are right to call me good ..."

Implied in your question is the idea that the above sociopath is being sanctified (being made into the image of Jesus Christ). Every moment of a Christian's life is exactly the process you describe above.

Therefore, what you are asking is, would I if I could what only God can do?
The honest answer is, most likely for everyone but me because I know my sin much better that I know the evil that lies in all the hearts of all the people ever.

Sure, why not! God does it every moment of every day for me,
but He does NOT forgive me because He is changing me. He forgives me because His justice for my evil sins has been paid upon Jesus.

There is no forgiveness without justice. Until justice is served, the best one can hope for is mercy. But even the mercy of the most patient God is temporary; justice WILL be served.

God's mercies are new every day because mercy is justice delayed.
Forgiveness is justice paid.
 
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Received

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I'm bored, so I decided to post a little thought experiment.

Lets say you have a sociopathic, sadistic mass murderer (let's call him Peter) and a machine that could turn him into an empathic good guy. I'm not merely talking about forcing him to do good, as was the case in A Clockwork Orange. I'm talking about pulling a switch and turning Peter into an honestly decent person.

Would you pull the switch? Do you think Peter would remain the same person if you did so? Would you still send him into prison, or do you think it would absolve him of his guilt? Most importantly, would you regard Peter as a moral person, even though he didn't decide to be one?

I don't think I have a right to pull the switch. I think being good can be sold with an Aristotelean package wrapped in a modern psychology ribbon: being good pays off emotionally, psychologically, and people are essentially happier when they live well-rounded virtuous lives, with research to support this, particularly with people who are givers.

I wouldn't send him to prison, as I see prison a means to correcting behavior. But I could see long-term screwy social consequences if everyone were given a pass with a lever pull if they were bad. "Hey, I could murder this jerk and then get "the switch". Piece of cake." So that's tricky. Some type of punishment would still be necessary if he was caught breaking the law.

I would consider Peter a good person if he acted morally, whether or not he worked to get to the place where acting morally is natural for him.

Fascinating thought experiment.
 
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Eudaimonist

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I think being good can be sold with an Aristotelean package wrapped in a modern psychology ribbon: being good pays off emotionally, psychologically, and people are essentially happier when they live well-rounded virtuous lives, with research to support this, particularly with people who are givers.

No need to sell that to me. I think that's how it is.

But you've just sparked a consideration I hadn't considered. I'm reminded of Phillipa Foot's Trolley Problem. A died-in-the-wool utilitarian would have no reason not to pull the lever, but a virtuous virtue ethicist would likely not because it is likely not part of her character to murder innocents, even to save the lives of others.

Such a consideration may apply to this issue as well. Pulling levers to make sudden changes to others is rather like "playing God" with them. Is that someone you would want to be a part of your character? Is that a desirable trait of character? I personally think not.

I wouldn't send him to prison, as I see prison a means to correcting behavior. But I could see long-term screwy social consequences if everyone were given a pass with a lever pull if they were bad. "Hey, I could murder this jerk and then get "the switch". Piece of cake." So that's tricky. Some type of punishment would still be necessary if he was caught breaking the law.

That's a good point. I had forgotten the prison-as-deterrent aspect, but then I wasn't thinking of the social rammifications of the decision.

I would consider Peter a good person if he acted morally, whether or not he worked to get to the place where acting morally is natural for him.

I agree with this, and find this view much more sensible than Way of the Master view that "I stole a paperclip when I was four, and so I'm a thief as an adult".


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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