Can you control what you believe?

[elman]

You mustn't forget "minimize displeasure." A lot of the time we don't do stuff that could be very helpful to us in the end because of all the suffering it would cause getting there. And usually, the further off a pleasure is, the less real it seems.

And sometime we do chose the path of suffering and sometimes it has nothing to do with expectation of future pleasure. Sometimes we do it because it is the right thing to do and is of benefit to others.

 

[levi501]

Can you chose the outside factor?

Certainly, but that doesn't mean we choose the impact or the impression it has on us.

 

[elman]

Certainly, but that doesn't mean we choose the impact or the impression it has on us.

Of course it does if we go to the touble of looking into what that impact or impression might be.

 

[levi501]

Of course it does if we go to the touble of looking into what that impact or impression might be.

nuh uh.

 

[elman]

nuh uh.

hu huh.

 

[levi501]

hu huh.

nuh uh. double stamp it, no erasies!

remember you can't triple stamp a double stamp!

 

[rstrats]

elman,

re: "Of course it does if we go to the trouble of looking into what that impact or impression might be."

If the impact is the obtaining of a new belief, are you saying that you consciously CHOSE it?

 

[elman]

elman,

re: "Of course it does if we go to the trouble of looking into what that impact or impression might be."

If the impact is the obtaining of a new belief, are you saying that you consciously CHOSE it?

Only in a very limited sense am I saying that. I do say we can chose some of the things that impact us in our search for truth. We can chose what we read and who we listen to for advice and these things can effect what we believe. Also I think the word believe in the Christian context is not just an intellectual assent to something. In the Christian context, to love is to act on behalf of i.e. the parable of the good samaitan. To believe is also relating to an action. If we believe Jesus we will do what He says to do and what He says to do is to love, again putting us in an activity rather than an intellectuall assent to something. We can chose what activity we engage in. In that sense we can chose to believe in Jesus.

 

[levi501]

you have a black belt in obfuscation...

 

[Code-Monkey]

Can you control what you believe or do you think the very core of your beliefs are determined by outside/other factors?

To some extent, yes. Certainly I think we can control our actions, and certainly I think we can control what we trust or put our faith in.

It seems very reasonable that if people were controlled by the environment and logically driven, then we would be agree are for more stuff than we do. But everyone seems to at leaet subconciously agree that what we believe and what we trust is our choice. It's easily seen when you listen to conversations and one person suggests to another that they should believe X because of this or that. It's an absurd claim unless they really do have a choice in the matter. So certainly we all subconciously agree that we have some control over our thoughts.

 

[atheist88]

And sometime we do chose the path of suffering and sometimes it has nothing to do with expectation of future pleasure. Sometimes we do it because it is the right thing to do and is of benefit to others.

And we all want to do the right thing. Suffering is not all physical. Sometimes I do things for others that have no apparent benefit to me, such has spending time and money for habitat for humanity.

However, I WANT to do these things because I would feel guilt for not doing them. So the suffering of me working all day for no physical reward has a mental reward.

Let's simplify things, give me an example of a selfless act.

On belief, we can not choose what to believe. We are either convinced it is true or we are not. Everything a person "believes" is nothing more than things they have accepted to be true. Even what we accept as evidence is not a choice, we are either convinced of its validity or we are not.

There is no such thing as a belief, only acceptable truths.

Keeping it simple, give me an example of you rejecting evidence you deem valid and accepting evidence you deem false. For instance, are you capable of going outside, seeing the green grass, returning inside and telling us that you "believe" that grass is actually red.

 

[Merlin]

On belief, we can not choose what to believe.

Sure a person can.
I help people change their beliefs for a living.

 

[atheist88]

Sure a person can.
I help people change their beliefs for a living.

Then you are convincing them that the new way is better or true and the old way is worse or false. This is how a person changes their beliefs for there is no other way.

You should be a little more verbose with your responses if you want to change my belief because right now I believe you are wrong.

 

[rstrats]

Merlin,

re: "Sure a person can. I help people change their beliefs for a living."


But can you consciously CHOOSE to believe things?

 

[Merlin]

Merlin,

re: "Sure a person can. I help people change their beliefs for a living."

But can you consciously CHOOSE to believe things?

If you are taught how, then yes.

 

[Merlin]

Then you are convincing them that the new way is better or true and the old way is worse or false.

Nope.

This is how a person changes their beliefs for there is no other way.

This is the most common way.
There is another way.

You should be a little more verbose with your responses if you want to change my belief because right now I believe you are wrong.

I don't care if you change your belief or not.

 

[WolfBitnGodSmittn]

If you are taught how, then yes.

or if you decide to believe things based on your own research... looking for WHAT to believe

 

[WolfBitnGodSmittn]

Atheist

Curious about something here my friend... what would it take to change YOUR belief concerning God?

 

[atheist88]

Merlin, just saying "Nope" and "There is another way." is worse than useless, it is insulting. It begs for me to respond with "Yep" and "No there isn't". Normally a discussion offers a little more substance than this. How about offering an explanation of what you are talking about or giving me an example of someone choosing to believe something despite being convinced of its validity.

Wolf:
You do research to convince yourself of what is the right answer. If belief is just a choice, simply choose a side and be done with it. It simply isn't done this way. People "believe" only what they have been convinced of whether it is from research or being manipulated by Merlin.

To change my belief would be simple. The easiest approach would be to convince me that anything supernatural occurs. If you can do this I would have to re-evaluate all of my "beliefs". In fact, if you can do this, there is a one million dollar prize waiting for you.

I can't post a link yet but feel free to search for the "James Randi Educational Foundation". They offer a one million dollar prize to any one who can produce a supernatural event in a scientific setting.

 

[Merlin]

Merlin, just saying "Nope" and "There is another way." is worse than useless, it is insulting. It begs for me to respond with "Yep" and "No there isn't". Normally a discussion offers a little more substance than this. How about offering an explanation of what you are talking about or giving me an example of someone choosing to believe something despite being convinced of its validity.

I did not intend to insult, neither do I offer a tutorial of how to.
I only intended to inform you that such exists.
I use it regularly.

When a person comes to me seeking (for instance) to stop cancering or to rebalance their sugar levels so as to no longer need insulin, then they usually need belief changes.