Can you control what you believe?

[elman]

Yes, but that's not what I'm saying. Sure, you can choose the behavior, but can you choose the underlying feeling or belief? Sure I can choose to not eat mayonnaise but can I freely choose to find it tasty if it's more convenient to do so? A woman can choose to leave an abusive husband, but can she choose to stop feeling in love with him?

I think it's the same with religious belief. I don't think I could say to myself "hmmm..religion X tells me bad things will happen to me if I don't believe its central tenets, and I don't want bad things to happen so I'm going to choose to start believing they're true."

I think loving someone is not as much about feeling as how you act toward them. I think that is also true of religion. What matters is how you act. If your loving in your actions, your feelings will get in line but wheather they do or not it is the actions that you have control over. Also so this "feeling in love with someone" is not something one should based their lives upon. That is like talking about a teen age crush.

 

[elman]

Do you make any of these choices randomly, or is there some reasoning occurring?

There is both reasoning and choice.

 

[Lynden1000]

I think loving someone is not as much about feeling as how you act toward them. I think that is also true of religion. What matters is how you act. If your loving in your actions, your feelings will get in line but wheather they do or not it is the actions that you have control over. Also so this "feeling in love with someone" is not something one should based their lives upon. That is like talking about a teen age crush.

Again, I think you're missing the point. The point is not whether a teenager should base his or her life on a crush. The point is whether the teenager can freely choose to simply stop feeling one way and feel another. That's where we are disagreeing. I don't think I could simply choose of my own free will to find something believable if I don't find it believable. Even if I desparately wanted to believe the earth is flat, I couldn't. My brain simply won't allow me to. Likewise, if a creationist thinks biblical creation is far more believable than evolution, I don't think he or she can simply choose to find the latter more believable simply by free will. Now he or she could choose to *act*, say by reading one book over another, but that's different than simply choosing to believe one thing over another.

 

[TeddyKGB]

There is both reasoning and choice.

So I can choose to follow my reasoning or not? How do I make that choice?

 

[levi501]

of course we can't choose.

 

[TeddyKGB]

of course we can't choose.

I am still willing to listen to suggestions, but the explanations that, so far, amount to "we choose by choosing" are doing me little good.

 

[rstrats]

jamesMarion,

Although you didn’t address your post to anyone, I think it may be intended for me.

re: "My choices are made after conscious thought."

But is the engendering of the actual belief consciously made?

 

[jamesMarion]

My "hello" was actually addressing two posts at once. I control what my subconscious mind accepts. I compare all thoughts to a perfect standard and then choose to accept or reject the thought. I guess the thought is not actually "me" until I buy into it. As far as "choose by choosing"; I am missing somthing. I assumed that I weigh various points of view and then decide to accept one over another. I am using the word choice but maybe I should use "decision making" as described on Wikipedia.com. Outside facts are either accepted or rejected. Once I was taught a vocabulary to think with, I was free to decide what to believe. The more I learn, the more choices I make. I seperate thoughts from feelings (emotions).

 

[rstrats]

jamesMarion,

Again, you didn’t address your post to anyone and from its content I am not sure if it is meant to respond to my question or not. If it is, it’s clear that I am not articulate enough to express the question, or if I have, that I’m not smart enough to understand how your comments are responsive.

 

[elman]

Again, I think you're missing the point. The point is not whether a teenager should base his or her life on a crush. The point is whether the teenager can freely choose to simply stop feeling one way and feel another. That's where we are disagreeing. I don't think I could simply choose of my own free will to find something believable if I don't find it believable. Even if I desparately wanted to believe the earth is flat, I couldn't. My brain simply won't allow me to. Likewise, if a creationist thinks biblical creation is far more believable than evolution, I don't think he or she can simply choose to find the latter more believable simply by free will. Now he or she could choose to *act*, say by reading one book over another, but that's different than simply choosing to believe one thing over another.

I agree with all that, but think we can control what we do with our crushes and ideas in such a way as to be more than just at the mercy of our feelings. We can control our reactions to our feelings.

 

[elman]

So I can choose to follow my reasoning or not? How do I make that choice?

You can chose to follow your feelings or not. Do you have a problem with being able to do that? Maybe you can use your reasoning ability to get some control over your reactions to your feelings.

 

[TeddyKGB]

You can chose to follow your feelings or not. Do you have a problem with being able to do that?

No, I have a problem understanding how I do it.

Maybe you can use your reasoning ability to get some control over your reactions to your feelings.

Maybe. How do I choose to do that?

 

[elman]

No, I have a problem understanding how I do it.

Maybe. How do I choose to do that?

Put the mind in gear. Be angry but do not act on it to the harm of someone else.

 

[jamesMarion]

Hello rstrats;
The formation of the actual belief is consciously made. I see it as that I am presented through one of my 5 senses with a proposition. If I accept, it becomes a belief.

 

[rstrats]

jamesMarion,

re: "The formation of the actual belief is consciously made. "

Perhaps you can help me, then. I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have and I would like to be able to do that - for example to effect a belief in a supreme being or to believe that it is possible to become a more compassionate person. Since you seem to be implying that you can consciously CHOOSE to believe things, I wonder if you might explain how you do it. What do you do at the last moment to make your lack of belief instantly change to belief?

What is it that you do that would allow you to say, "OK, at this moment I have a lack of belief that ‘x’ exists or is true, but I CHOOSE to believe that ‘x’ exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that ‘x’ exists or is true? Perhaps you could use something like leprechauns to illustrate your method. Assuming that you don’t already have a belief in them, how about right now, while you are reading this, CHOOSE to believe that they exist. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, a leprechaun is "a fairy peculiar to Ireland, who appeared in the form of an old man of minute stature, wearing a cocked hat and a leather apron."

Now that you believe in leprechauns, my question is, how did you do it? How did you make the instantaneous transition from lack of belief to belief?

 

[TeddyKGB]

Put the mind in gear. Be angry but do not act on it to the harm of someone else.

How do I choose to put my mind in gear? How do I choose to get angry?

 

[elman]

How do I choose to put my mind in gear? How do I choose to get angry?

You don't chose to get angry-that is not a choice unless you are faking it. You use your mind when you chose to think about somthing or chose to meditate on it.

 

[TeddyKGB]

You don't chose to get angry-that is not a choice unless you are faking it.

Do I choose whether or not I succumb to my anger?

You use your mind when you chose to think about somthing or chose to meditate on it.

How do I choose what to think about?

 

[elman]

Do I choose whether or not I succumb to my anger?

How do I choose what to think about?

Yes. By choosing what to read or watch or where to be.

 

[TeddyKGB]

Yes. By choosing what to read or watch or where to be.

How do I choose what to read?