Can you be more evolved than Jesus? The bible says no

Gottservant

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Hi there,

So look, my questions have arrived at a point where I can see something to do with Evolution, but I still don't know what it is. It's as if there is a sense in which Evolution is practical and just short of true and therefore practically true. The thing I'm having difficulty with is the moral dimension, I just can't accept that anything goes. So I've come up with this example of a limit that I know, I absolutely know cannot be surpassed: you cannot be more evolved than Jesus.

Jesus said "I live by my message" right? And every successive generation interprets Jesus message in their own way, right? So in a sense His messange is alive and Jesus is alive because His message is alive?

Ok but there is no sense in which Jesus love is insufficient. Why? Because He gave everything, and "everything" to each successive generation is something different, it might be more, it might be less, overall but at the time it is basically EVERYTHING. When you say everything to a black guy, it is every part of his blackness. When you say everything to a chinese guy, it is every part of his chineseness. When you say everything to a boy, it is every part of his boyness. Right?

So how are you going to out evolve something that is alive all the time, giving everything? You just can't. Jesus even knew this.

There is a verse in the Bible which most people would know if they read it, it goes "Greater love has no man than this, than a man who lays down his life for his friends".

Why is this? Because no matter how evolved you are, you are still basically just "alive". You can't give more than what keeps you alive.

It's like saying "Here. I give you the best of Evolution, keep it" You are going to say "great, the best of Evolution, just what I always wanted" right? I mean how can you turn it down? You can say "No, you can't give Evolution, you keep it" but then you're saying you don't even want what you believe in. How far is that from just giving it up? What reason could you have for keeping on believing in something you don't even share?

So I don't know, I think I've made my point. If you can't share Evolution then you can't beat someone who shares, it's as simple as that, Man. I'm not trying to be a downer, its just a fact. This fact is the reason people are moral, it is what all the good of the world comes from. Saying no to that, I don't know how else to put it: you're on the way to suicide.

Take it as a warning if you really must, but that's not what I'm saying: I'm saying there is a limit and the limit welcomes us. Be welcomed.:preach::D:D
 

46AND2

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Concerning the moral aspect. I actually find it quite easy to see how morality evolved. If a population behaves morally, they are more likely to work together to overcome selection pressures. I don't see morality as an edict from a higher being--indeed, consequences inhibit true morality--but rather a social necessity borne in the face of selection pressures.

As for Jesus giving his life...how is this possible, if he is an eternal being? What did he give up? He's still alive, according to Christians, living the same way he was 3000, 3 million, 3 billion years ago. What is finite "suffering" to an infinite being?

Now, I'm not trying to be mean here. I know that this argument is rather taboo, and many Christians are offended by the trivializing of the sacrifice. But, it really is an honest question. It just doesn't make sense to me. And I have yet to hear an adequate response.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Hi there,

So look, my questions have arrived at a point where I can see something to do with Evolution, but I still don't know what it is. It's as if there is a sense in which Evolution is practical and just short of true and therefore practically true. The thing I'm having difficulty with is the moral dimension, I just can't accept that anything goes. So I've come up with this example of a limit that I know, I absolutely know cannot be surpassed: you cannot be more evolved than Jesus.

Jesus said "I live by my message" right? And every successive generation interprets Jesus message in their own way, right? So in a sense His messange is alive and Jesus is alive because His message is alive?

Ok but there is no sense in which Jesus love is insufficient. Why? Because He gave everything, and "everything" to each successive generation is something different, it might be more, it might be less, overall but at the time it is basically EVERYTHING. When you say everything to a black guy, it is every part of his blackness. When you say everything to a chinese guy, it is every part of his chineseness. When you say everything to a boy, it is every part of his boyness. Right?

So how are you going to out evolve something that is alive all the time, giving everything? You just can't. Jesus even knew this.

There is a verse in the Bible which most people would know if they read it, it goes "Greater love has no man than this, than a man who lays down his life for his friends".

Why is this? Because no matter how evolved you are, you are still basically just "alive". You can't give more than what keeps you alive.

It's like saying "Here. I give you the best of Evolution, keep it" You are going to say "great, the best of Evolution, just what I always wanted" right? I mean how can you turn it down? You can say "No, you can't give Evolution, you keep it" but then you're saying you don't even want what you believe in. How far is that from just giving it up? What reason could you have for keeping on believing in something you don't even share?

So I don't know, I think I've made my point. If you can't share Evolution then you can't beat someone who shares, it's as simple as that, Man. I'm not trying to be a downer, its just a fact. This fact is the reason people are moral, it is what all the good of the world comes from. Saying no to that, I don't know how else to put it: you're on the way to suicide.

Take it as a warning if you really must, but that's not what I'm saying: I'm saying there is a limit and the limit welcomes us. Be welcomed.:preach::D:D

You know....I think you've figured it all out.

No need for anymore posts on evolution.
 
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Gottservant

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You know....I think you've figured it all out.

No need for anymore posts on evolution.

Thanks but if the Devil didn't hand out invitations to consider his theory, it wouldn't be my job to make sure it wasn't confusing people.

Did I say Devil? I meant Darwin, it's easy to get things mixed up when people condone the actions of men like Hitler.

Or wait, did you think you could speak for Evolutionists everywhere? Because as you know populations evolve, individuals have to keep their mouth shut.

I'm not saying you don't have anything to say, it's just hard to imagine that you are speaking with progress in mind, if figuring things out just means you exclude people.
 
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Gottservant

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Concerning the moral aspect. I actually find it quite easy to see how morality evolved. If a population behaves morally, they are more likely to work together to overcome selection pressures. I don't see morality as an edict from a higher being--indeed, consequences inhibit true morality--but rather a social necessity borne in the face of selection pressures.

As for Jesus giving his life...how is this possible, if he is an eternal being? What did he give up? He's still alive, according to Christians, living the same way he was 3000, 3 million, 3 billion years ago. What is finite "suffering" to an infinite being?

Now, I'm not trying to be mean here. I know that this argument is rather taboo, and many Christians are offended by the trivializing of the sacrifice. But, it really is an honest question. It just doesn't make sense to me. And I have yet to hear an adequate response.

Point being He gave up as much as you have, so whatever you owed God for your [bless and do not curse] ups is covered.

What it is to Jesus is His business, don't you think?

Or wait, you want to know, but you can't ask Him for some reason?
 
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46AND2

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Point being He gave up as much as you have, so whatever you owed God for your [bless and do not curse] ups is covered.

What it is to Jesus is His business, don't you think?

Or wait, you want to know, but you can't ask Him for some reason?

No he didn't. He supposedly knew how much this life pales in comparison to heaven. I would think he couldn't wait to get out of here except for the fact that 30-some years is like a pinprick of time to an infinite being.

The problem is the anthropomorphication of a supreme being, created by the authors all those years ago, in order to make you identify with him more. You apply human feelings and attributes to him that make no sense, logically, for an eternal being.

For example: a son? When and how did this parenthood begin?


And what makes you thing I didn't ask him? That I didn't beg for more than a decade for it all to make sense?
 
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Ana the Ist

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Thanks but if the Devil didn't hand out invitations to consider his theory, it wouldn't be my job to make sure it wasn't confusing people.

Did I say Devil? I meant Darwin, it's easy to get things mixed up when people condone the actions of men like Hitler.

Or wait, did you think you could speak for Evolutionists everywhere? Because as you know populations evolve, individuals have to keep their mouth shut.

I'm not saying you don't have anything to say, it's just hard to imagine that you are speaking with progress in mind, if figuring things out just means you exclude people.

I thought I was just paying you a compliment. You've seemed terribly vexed at the very notion of evolution...question upon question stalks it's way around your brain day after day. I thought perhaps if you felt you had finally found an answer to one of your questions...you would have some contentment. I was apparently wrong.

What you need to understand is you'll never change anyone's mind about evolution by posing them questions about it. People who believe in evolution do so because of evidence....not a series of "what if" type questions that they came up with their own personal answers for.

If you really...and I mean REALLY want to change the minds of people who believe in evolution....you'll need to provide evidence that it is wrong. You won't even have to ask a question. You simply need to be able to show evidence it is wrong.

On this matter I don't presume to speak for all who believe in evolution...but I doubt you'll find any who would disagree with me.
 
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Gottservant

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No he didn't. He supposedly knew how much this life pales in comparison to heaven. I would think he couldn't wait to get out of here except for the fact that 30-some years is like a pinprick of time to an infinite being.

The problem is the anthropomorphication of a supreme being, created by the authors all those years ago, in order to make you identify with him more. You apply human feelings and attributes to him that make no sense, logically, for an eternal being.

For example: a son? When and how did this parenthood begin?


And what makes you thing I didn't ask him? That I didn't beg for more than a decade for it all to make sense?

You are projecting value (Christ has this value, it was worth x to Him)

I can only assume that when you asked for it to make sense you were asking for a sense of self-worth

Asking for a sense of self-worth in the wrong context is selfish, not holy

Coming back at me as if I am going to get you self-worth that Jesus did not, is not going to get you anywhere
 
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46AND2

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You are projecting value (Christ has this value, it was worth x to Him)

I can only assume that when you asked for it to make sense you were asking for a sense of self-worth

Asking for a sense of self-worth in the wrong context is selfish, not holy

Coming back at me as if I am going to get you self-worth that Jesus did not, is not going to get you anywhere

Self worth? That's a strange (and wrong) assumption to make. Religion in general, and Christianity specifically, beats unworthiness into you, and I was in full submission in that regard, just as any practicing Christian.
 
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46AND2

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You are projecting value (Christ has this value, it was worth x to Him)

I can only assume that when you asked for it to make sense you were asking for a sense of self-worth

Asking for a sense of self-worth in the wrong context is selfish, not holy

Coming back at me as if I am going to get you self-worth that Jesus did not, is not going to get you anywhere

Ok, now I've got a bit more time for a full response...

No, YOU are projecting value on Christ's suffering which is inconsistent with the attributes you assign him. How could an omnipotent being suffer? How can an eternal being sacrifice his life?

The whole story makes SOOO much more sense when you consider it was written by superstitious goat herders, who desperately want to believe that there is something out there who feels the way they do, but more intensely. Love, pain, paternity, loyalty, etc. So they create an anthropomorphic god who feels all these things to a degree that we are allegedly incapable of understanding, yet can empathize with to a certain extent.

Essentially, what makes vastly more sense is that man made the Christian god, not the other way around.
 
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ThinkForYourself

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Good question.

Jesus has certainly evolved a lot since his inception. Multiple language translations, and versions, so much so that he has evolved into what can only be described as separate species, ie Christianity and Mormonism.

I have evolved from a one cell orgranism into a human being.

So, while Jesus has certainly evolved, I think I have evolved more.
 
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keith99

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Good question.

Jesus has certainly evolved a lot since his inception. Multiple language translations, and versions, so much so that he has evolved into what can only be described as separate species, ie Christianity and Mormonism.

I have evolved from a one cell orgranism into a human being.

So, while Jesus has certainly evolved, I think I have evolved more.

But has Jesus changed or what people claim about him?

Still all the mainline and I think even most of the cult branches say:

Jesus is fully God.

And since they also agree that God is the same yesterday, today and forever it is clear that Jesus is unchanged.

And as you point out evolved means changed, not advanced.

So I say that even the most unchanged of men has changed so every man, woman and child is infinitely more evolved than Jesus.
 
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ThinkForYourself

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But has Jesus changed or what people claim about him?

Still all the mainline and I think even most of the cult branches say:

Jesus is fully God.

And since they also agree that God is the same yesterday, today and forever it is clear that Jesus is unchanged.

And as you point out evolved means changed, not advanced.

So I say that even the most unchanged of men has changed so every man, woman and child is infinitely more evolved than Jesus.

Good point.

But I'll stick with Jesus being literally the myth, so as the myth evolved, so has Jesus.
 
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Sayre

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But has Jesus changed or what people claim about him?

Still all the mainline and I think even most of the cult branches say:

Jesus is fully God.

And since they also agree that God is the same yesterday, today and forever it is clear that Jesus is unchanged.

And as you point out evolved means changed, not advanced.

So I say that even the most unchanged of men has changed so every man, woman and child is infinitely more evolved than Jesus.

Than the human part of Jesus? Yes. Than the God part? Yeah right...
 
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