Can you be Christian and believe in evolution?

[olgamc]

I've cited a lot more than Psalms. Would you like me to copy and paste my prior posts again on bara and Asah?

True, you have quoted God bara Israel, which is a physical creation as we can see through the genealogies in Genesis. Why not choose that bara instead of the poetic figurative bara in Psalms?

Either way, the psalmist isn't asking God for a physically new heart. Nor any physical process at all.

But he is asking for a new heart, right? A new creation? Not the old sinful heart to be chosen or pronounced as clean the way a pastor can pronounce somebody husband or wife?

Also, it's not really about who is using the word, Moses or the psalmist, rather what's important is how the word is used.

Sure. If bara can be used for both physical and not physical creation, then just the word alone is not enough to say whether Genesis 1 is physical or not. So how can we know? Understanding the meaning of the word from the surrounding context is a reading comprehension skill taught to kids in elementary school. The key - surrounding context. So don't go reading Psalms if you want to understand one word in Genesis. Read Genesis.

 

[Job 33:6]

True, you have quoted God bara Israel, which is a physical creation as we can see through the genealogies in Genesis. Why not choose that bara instead of the poetic figurative bara in Psalms?

But he is asking for a new heart, right? A new creation? Not the old sinful heart to be chosen or pronounced as clean the way a pastor can pronounce somebody husband or wife?


Sure. If bara can be used for both physical and not physical creation, then just the word alone is not enough to say whether Genesis 1 is physical or not. So how can we know? Understanding the meaning of the word from the surrounding context is a reading comprehension skill taught to kids in elementary school. The key - surrounding context. So don't go reading Psalms if you want to understand one word in Genesis. Read Genesis.

We've already done that too, we can take another look at Genesis if you want.

Day 1, bara isn't used.

‭Genesis 1:3-5 ESV‬
[3] And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. [4] And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness. [5] God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

However we see that God called the light day and the darkness night. That's assignment, designation. Appointment. It's not material creation.

‭Genesis 1:6-8 ESV‬
[6] And God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” [7] And God made the expanse and separated the waters that were under the expanse from the waters that were above the expanse. And it was so. [8] And God called the expanse Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day.

Day two God makes and expanse, what is an expanse but emptiness? Nothing is made here.

‭Genesis 1:11-13 ESV‬
[11] And God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, on the earth.” And it was so. [12] The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. [13] And there was evening and there was morning, the third day.

Day three, again, God doesn't even make anything, bara is never used. It says that the Earth brought forth vegetation. That's not God materially creating anything. The earth brought it forth.

‭Genesis 1:14-19 ESV‬
[14] And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons, and for days and years, [15] and let them be lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light upon the earth.” And it was so. [16] And God made the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars. [17] And God set them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, [18] to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. [19] And there was evening and there was morning, the fourth day.

Day four, we see that God made something, but immediately after we see that they were made to rule the day and night.

Just like with a birthday cake, I can go to the store and pick up a cake and I can make that cake a birthday cake. I can assign a role to that cake without actually baking it myself.

And so the making of the object is making it into something to fill a purpose, it's not material manufacturing.

Etc etc

Genesis doesn't actually describe God materially creating anything.

At least with Israel, we know that there wasn't an Israel before and then over time eventually there became an Israel. And that's still assuming that the word in Isaiah was being used in a material sense. But we don't even get that in Genesis.

 

[olgamc]

If you don't have the original object, you probably wouldn't know.

There. That's were all the arguments originate. Thinking that if one is right than the other must be wrong.

Person 1 - theology and young earth creationists. "We know the truth, the Bible is right, therefore science must be wrong".
Person 2 - science and evolutionists. "We know the theory of evolution is right, can't be argued with, therefore Bible is wrong."

And then there are people in between, like yourself, who can't decide who is right and who is wrong, and so they try to excuse the Bible. "Moses wrote a myth. Creation is not physical. Bible has nothing to do with science." Or they try to excuse science "well, maybe their observations are correct but their dating method is wrong". Or people that just shrug and walk away.

This is the object that the two people were drawing:

Turns out they were both correct. Correct, but incomplete.

Now I am going to ask a question to each of them, and they are still sitting in separate rooms and not talking to each other. My question is - can you please calculate the volume of the cylinder that you drew? (Translation - where did people come from?)

Person 1 (circle) - what a silly question to ask, I don't deal with formulas and there is nothing in my drawing about a height. (translation - Bible is not a science textbook and there is nothing in it about evolution)

Person 2 (square) - what a silly question to ask, I don't even know what Pi is, it's not something you consider when studying squares. (translation - what even is a soul? We are just dealing with biological organisms here).

Hey guys, how about we work together? And how about we accept that we haven't learned the entire formula yet?

 

[Job 33:6]

There. That's were all the arguments originate. Thinking that if one is right than the other must be wrong.

Person 1 - theology and young earth creationists. "We know the truth, the Bible is right, therefore science must be wrong".
Person 2 - science and evolutionists. "We know the theory of evolution is right, can't be argued with, therefore Bible is wrong."

And then there are people in between, like yourself, who can't decide who is right and who is wrong, and so they try to excuse the Bible. "Moses wrote a myth. Creation is not physical. Bible has nothing to do with science." Or they try to excuse science "well, maybe their observations are correct but their dating method is wrong". Or people that just shrug and walk away.

This is the object that the two people were drawing:
View attachment 345125

Turns out they were both correct. Correct, but incomplete.

Now I am going to ask a question to each of them, and they are still sitting in separate rooms and not talking to each other. My question is - can you please calculate the volume of the cylinder that you drew? (Translation - where did people come from?)

View attachment 345127

Person 1 (circle) - what a silly question to ask, I don't deal with formulas and there is nothing in my drawing about a height. (translation - Bible is not a science textbook and there is nothing in it about evolution)

Person 2 (square) - what a silly question to ask, I don't even know what Pi is, it's not something you consider when studying squares. (translation - what even is a soul? We are just dealing with biological organisms here).

Hey guys, how about we work together? And how about we accept that we haven't learned the entire formula yet?

Genesis doesn't describe creation in a material sense. I mean look at the text, the earth is already there before the story even begins. It was formless and void.

The text doesn't say anything about comments being joined together or it doesn't say that before the Earth there was empty space.

So it's not just with humanity, but also Earth itself, the text doesn't talk about God materially manufacturing the Earth. It's already there before God does anything in Genesis.

 

[olgamc]

Genesis doesn't describe creation in a material sense. I mean look at the text, the earth is already there before the story even begins. It was formless and void.

The text doesn't say anything about comments being joined together or it doesn't say that before the Earth there was empty space.

So it's not just with humanity, but also Earth itself, the text doesn't talk about God materially manufacturing the Earth. It's already there before God does anything in Genesis.

Ok. And then God chooses mankind. From an empty and void earth. Right.

 

[Job 33:6]

Ok. And then God chooses mankind. From an empty and void earth. Right.

Yes, He does. It's describing the earth as, sort of like meaningless or without designated purpose. It's not saying that earth wasn't there or anything like that.

 

[olgamc]

We've already done that too, we can take another look at Genesis if you want.

Day 1, bara isn't used.

‭Genesis 1:3-5 ESV‬
[3] And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. [4] And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness. [5] God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

However we see that God called the light day and the darkness night. That's assignment, designation. Appointment. It's not material creation.

‭Genesis 1:6-8 ESV‬
[6] And God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” [7] And God made the expanse and separated the waters that were under the expanse from the waters that were above the expanse. And it was so. [8] And God called the expanse Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day.

Day two God makes and expanse, what is an expanse but emptiness? Nothing is made here.

‭Genesis 1:11-13 ESV‬
[11] And God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, on the earth.” And it was so. [12] The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. [13] And there was evening and there was morning, the third day.

Day three, again, God doesn't even make anything, bara is never used. It says that the Earth brought forth vegetation. That's not God materially creating anything. The earth brought it forth.

‭Genesis 1:14-19 ESV‬
[14] And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons, and for days and years, [15] and let them be lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light upon the earth.” And it was so. [16] And God made the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars. [17] And God set them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, [18] to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. [19] And there was evening and there was morning, the fourth day.

Day four, we see that God made something, but immediately after we see that they were made to rule the day and night.

Just like with a birthday cake, I can go to the store and pick up a cake and I can make that cake a birthday cake. I can assign a role to that cake without actually baking it myself.

And so the making of the object is making it into something to fill a purpose, it's not material manufacturing.

Etc etc

Genesis doesn't actually describe God materially creating anything.

At least with Israel, we know that there wasn't an Israel before and then over time eventually there became an Israel. And that's still assuming that the word in Isaiah was being used in a material sense. But we don't even get that in Genesis.

In short. You want to gift a cake. You go to a store... wait. Stores don't exist. Now what? Oh ok, no problem, you can find a recipe.... wait. Recipes don't exist. Now what? Oh ok, no problem, you can invent a recipe. You invent a recipe that calls for flour, so you go to a store... wait. There are no stores. Oh ok, that's not a problem, you go to your back yard and you plant some wheat.... wait. There is not such thing as wheat. Now what?

 

[olgamc]

Yes, He does. It's describing the earth as, sort of like meaningless or without designated purpose. It's not saying that earth wasn't there or anything like that.

Oh so stores exist? Full of cakes? Including the exact cake (chocolate, with cherries on top) that you want to gift? Where did the stores and the cakes and your gift cake come from?

 

[Job 33:6]

Yes, He does. It's describing the earth as, sort of like meaningless or without designated purpose. It's not saying that earth wasn't there or anything like that.

Here's a better translation for the topic.

‭Genesis 1:1-3 NRSVUE‬
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was complete chaos, and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters. [3] Then God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

It's not as though these things are not present. It's just that God hasn't made them for a purpose yet. So, In the beginning, Earth is present, it's there. It's already materially present.

And it's the same thing with people, they're there too.

But God hasn't made these things for a purpose yet.

So then he comes in and he makes the sun and moon for seasons and time.

The Earth brings forth vegetation. He's not making the vegetation In a material sense, the earth is bringing it forth.

God makes the expanse, but again the expense isn't a thing, it's just an empty space. It's God establishing weather in a sense or setting weather up for purposes, such as for growing of vegetation as observed on the next day.

God isn't actually making anything (In a physical manufacturing sense). Everything's already there.

 

[Job 33:6]

In short. You want to gift a cake. You go to a store... wait. Stores don't exist. Now what? Oh ok, no problem, you can find a recipe.... wait. Recipes don't exist. Now what? Oh ok, no problem, you can invent a recipe. You invent a recipe that calls for flour, so you go to a store... wait. There are no stores. Oh ok, that's not a problem, you go to your back yard and you plant some wheat.... wait. There is not such thing as wheat. Now what?

It's all already there.

‭Genesis 1:1-3 NRSVUE‬
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was complete chaos, and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters. [3] Then God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

Look at how this verse is worded, the Earth was complete chaos.

The Earth is already there. The store and the cakes on the store rack, they're already there too, but they haven't been selected for purpose, they haven't been made for the birthday party.

 

[olgamc]

It's all already there.

The store and the cakes on the store rack, they're already there too, but they haven't been selected for purpose, they haven't been made for the birthday party.

Oh ok, so you know that your child is particularly fond of black forest cake. You decide to get one for his birthday. You go to a store that already exists. The store is full of cakes, including the exact cake (chocolate, with cherries on top) that you want to gift. You choose the cake and buy it and gift it to your child. Beautiful.

So what you are saying is that God is just a chooser and somebody bigger than Him exists. Somebody who created the store, and the baker, and the recipe, and the wheat, and the chocolate, and the egg laying chickens etc, and that somebody knows exactly what kind of cake God is going to buy, and that somebody already created everything and orchestrated all the processes that led up to that particular black forest cake sitting on the shelf. Just so God can come and choose it. And that "somebody" is what - evolution? Is that what you actually believe?!?

 

[Job 33:6]

Oh ok, so you know that your child is particularly fond of black forest cake. You decide to get one for his birthday. You go to a store that already exists. The store is full of cakes, including the exact cake (chocolate, with cherries on top) that you want to gift. You choose the cake and buy it and gift it to your child. Beautiful.

So what you are saying is that God is just a chooser and somebody bigger than Him exists. Somebody who created the store, and the baker, and the recipe, and the wheat, and the chocolate, and the egg laying chickens etc, and that somebody knows exactly what kind of cake God is going to buy, and that somebody already created everything that led up to that particular cake sitting on the shelf. Just so God can come and choose it. Is that what you actually believe?!?

What I'm saying is that the text of Genesis is about God choosing His special cake and coming in relationship with it and giving it a purpose and meaning.

Because all the other cakes are just going to get thrown in the trash if they aren't ever chosen for a purpose.

And that's a special story for that cake.

It's actually more important of a story if the cake is for a birthday, then if it was just baked and then thrown in the trash, right?

And sure God is the person who also baked all the cookies and cakes and God built the store too at some point in time before Genesis begins, but the story of Genesis begins with God coming into relationship with people, it's the story of God choosing the cake for the birthday. It's not the story of all the other stuff that comes before that with chickens and purchasing the flower and All that other stuff.

When you go to buy a cake from the store, do you really care who the chef is? Do you really care what brand of egg was used to make that cake?

No, you're usually just looking at the flavor and you might be curious if it's got a certain type of frosting on it, but other than that you don't typically care about the origins of that cake, you just want a cake for your kids birthday because really it's the birthday that's the important part of the story, it's not the origins of the cake at the store.

 

[Job 33:6]

What I'm saying is that the text of Genesis is about God choosing His special cake and coming in relationship with it and giving it a purpose and meaning.

Because all the other cakes are just going to get thrown in the trash if they aren't ever chosen for a purpose.

And that's a special story for that cake.

It's actually more important of a story if the cake is for a birthday, then if it was just baked and then thrown in the trash, right?

And sure God is the person who also baked all the cookies and cakes and God built the store too at some point in time before Genesis begins, but the story of Genesis begins with God coming into relationship with people, it's the story of God choosing the cake for the birthday. It's not the story of all the other stuff that comes before that with chickens and purchasing the flower and All that other stuff.

When you go to buy a cake from the store, do you really care who the chef is? Do you really care what brand of egg was used to make that cake?

No, you're usually just looking at the flavor and you might be curious if it's got a certain type of frosting on it, but other than that you don't typically care about the origins of that cake, you just want a cake for your kids birthday because really it's the birthday that's the important part of the story, it's not the origins of the cake at the store.

This might help too, go to Genesis day 7 and look at how the story ends.

The seventh Day, the seventh day, the seventh day. Three times that's tripartite, God rests on his throne.

Why is that important? Because it says that God approved of the temple. Heaven is my throne Earth is my footstool. Got to proves of this temple in relationship with humanity. The Pinnacle of day 6.

Why would Moses care about God taking up his throne? Because it's God's rulership essentially in partnership of mankind to who's created in his image.

And I've already quoted this but I'll quote it again.

‭Genesis 1:1-3 NRSVUE‬
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was complete chaos, and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters. [3] Then God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

The story isn't concerned about where Earth came from. Earth is already there. What the story is concerned about is Earth being assigned It's purposes and functions. The sun and the moon for establishing day and night. The expanse in the sky, for regulation of weather.

God doesn't make vegetation, it's already there and the earth brings it forth.


You see, all of these things are already there. The store is already there, the shelves are already there.


And the story is about God showing up at the store, he finds his special cake, and he sits down and communes with it.

Nobody cares about whether the eggs were organic or not, or what brand of flour was used. We care about the birthday party. We care about the actual celebration.

 

[Job 33:6]

This might help too, go to Genesis day 7 and look at how the story ends.

The seventh Day, the seventh day, the seventh day. Three times that's tripartite, God rests on his throne.

Why is that important? Because it says that God approved of the temple. Heaven is my throne Earth is my footstool. Got to proves of this temple in relationship with humanity. The Pinnacle of day 6.

Why would Moses care about God taking up his throne? Because it's God's rulership essentially in partnership of mankind to who's created in his image.

And I've already quoted this but I'll quote it again.

‭Genesis 1:1-3 NRSVUE‬
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was complete chaos, and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters. [3] Then God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

The story isn't concerned about where Earth came from. Earth is already there. What the story is concerned about is Earth being assigned It's purposes and functions. The sun and the moon for establishing day and night. The expanse in the sky, for regulation of weather.

God doesn't make vegetation, it's already there and the earth brings it forth.


You see, all of these things are already there. The store is already there, the shelves are already there.


And the story is about God showing up at the store, he finds his special cake, and he sits down and communes with it.

Nobody cares about whether the eggs were organic or not, or what brand of flour was used. We care about the birthday party. We care about the actual celebration.

I have two really good examples to share from the ancient Near East. I'll dig them up for contextual reference.

 

[Job 33:6]

I have two really good examples to share from the ancient Near East. I'll dig them up for contextual reference.

This isn't one of the two examples, but I'll share it anyway, this is from Gilgamesh, enkidu and the underworld. It's a Mesopotamian ancient near east story.

In the days of your, when the necessary things have been brought into manifest existence,

In the days of your, when the necessary things had been for the first time properly cared for,

When bread had been tasted for the first time in the shrines of the land

When the ovens of the land had been made to work

When the heavens had been separated from the earth

When the fame of mankind had been established

When An had taken the heavens for himself
When enlil had taken the Earth for himself
When the Netherworld had been given to ereskigala as a gift.

I'll grab more examples.

 

[olgamc]

I have two really good examples to share from the ancient Near East. I'll dig them up for contextual reference.

No thanks. Genesis is not ane myth, Genesis is God’s Word. Ane myth is a lie. Devil likes to do that… twist words, add just a little bit of lie and watch it grow. I will not read them. Or even if I do, I will not read them as God’s Word. I can tell you are very excited to share them. I would maybe possibly read them, after praying, if I thought that I could help you discover the truth. But it doesn’t look like you want to discover the truth. It looks like you are quite confident in what you believe and you want me to believe it too. You believe a lie. Sorry.

 

[olgamc]

What I'm saying is that the text of Genesis is about God choosing His special cake and coming in relationship with it and giving it a purpose and meaning.

Because all the other cakes are just going to get thrown in the trash if they aren't ever chosen for a purpose.

And that's a special story for that cake.

It's actually more important of a story if the cake is for a birthday, then if it was just baked and then thrown in the trash, right?

And sure God is the person who also baked all the cookies and cakes and God built the store too at some point in time before Genesis begins, but the story of Genesis begins with God coming into relationship with people, it's the story of God choosing the cake for the birthday. It's not the story of all the other stuff that comes before that with chickens and purchasing the flower and All that other stuff.

When you go to buy a cake from the store, do you really care who the chef is? Do you really care what brand of egg was used to make that cake?

No, you're usually just looking at the flavor and you might be curious if it's got a certain type of frosting on it, but other than that you don't typically care about the origins of that cake, you just want a cake for your kids birthday because really it's the birthday that's the important part of the story, it's not the origins of the cake at the store.

It’s all good of course, but the name of the book is literally Origins. And I am not going to argue again about teledoths and how they overlap (they do) and how creation of Adam in chapter 2 is the same story from a different perspective as creation of mankind in chapter 1, and how it does happen with teledoths.

So we can set that argument aside and I will allow for now that Genesis 1 talks about choosing. Ok. Think about it. Pre-Genesis. You know that you will want to give a birthday party. You know that you will want to choose a black forest cake as a gift. But cakes do not exist (pre-Genesis). So you have to create everything in order that, come Genesis, there is a black forest cake sitting on the shelf for you to choose. Right?

So why are you even arguing over bara or created from nothing vs chosen from something? God had to create mankind in His image so that He could choose them to rule. He had to start from nothing. Either way, Genesis 1 or not Genesis 1, He starts from nothing and He creates them in His image. How? By evolution? We circle back to my argument. Nothing has changed.

You have not changed or proven anything about man's origins by arguing bara or cosmology.

 

[Job 33:6]

It’s all good of course, but the name of the book is literally Origins.

It means beginning. As far as I'm aware. And so the question is, the beginning of what?

‭Genesis 1:1-3 NRSVUE‬
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was complete chaos, and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters. [3] Then God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

Not the beginning of Earth apparently because the Earth was already there.

 

[Job 33:6]

No thanks. Genesis is not ane myth, Genesis is God’s Word. Ane myth is a lie. Devil likes to do that… twist words, add just a little bit of lie and watch it grow. I will not read them. Or even if I do, I will not read them as God’s Word. I can tell you are very excited to share them. I would maybe possibly read them, after praying, if I thought that I could help you discover the truth. But it doesn’t look like you want to discover the truth. It looks like you are quite confident in what you believe and you want me to believe it too. You believe a lie. Sorry.

Plugging your ears and calling history "the devil" won't change what the Bible says:

‭Genesis 1:1-3 NRSVUE‬
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was complete chaos, and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters. [3] Then God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

Does the text say that earth was already there when God began to create, or does it not?

 

[olgamc]

Plugging your ears and calling history "the devil" won't change what the Bible says:

‭Genesis 1:1-3 NRSVUE‬
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was complete chaos, and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters. [3] Then God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

Does the text say that earth was already there when God began to create, or does it not?

Ane myth is not history.

Not arguing with you because there is no point. It changes nothing as far as evolution is concerned. If we were debating whether Adam and George are the same person, then yes, your assertion would change things. But that’s not what we are debating.