Can you be a Christian and join the forces

[butterflyinchrist]

I have a very close christian friend who has just joined the marines - special forces.

I can't believe that he has done this despite what the bible says; not killing, loving your enemy etc.

He will definitely be trained to kill and regardless of the scriptures involved the Holy Spirit has told me and a close friend that it is not God's desire for him to do this. We have told my friend this and while he "respects our opinions" it's not enough for him to change his mind.

I'm also deeply concerned because he has confided in me that the only reason he's doing this is because it's what he's always wanted to do and he feels like "giving up on the whole christian thing anyway".

What also upsets me is the fact that no one else in the church we go to seems to care one way or the other. People have told him to wait for God to give him an answer but he has given up and gone for it anyway.

I don't see how someone is supposed to love their enemies while pointing a gun in their face.
Also, what about "Thou shalt not kill" does he not understand!?

It will absolutely break my heart to see him do this and I have no idea what else to do. I know that we have been given free will from God and at the end of the day I will have to accept whatever my friend does because it's not my decision.

Any prayers or pointers gratefully received.

 

[White Horse]

It's fine. You might want to check out the movie or book, Sergeant York.

 

[Shizzle]

if you kill one to save five, is it wrong? if you didnt kill him, 5 would die, if you did kill him, 1 would die, you are in control of this situation, whats the christian thing to do?

 

[rtiredsarg]

We are shown in the Bible where Armys have been formed to defend the nation of Isreal.

As Christians we are to support and defend our nation. I believe the Bible does give provision for being in the military. I proudly serve 20 years and have served with many fine Christian Men and Women in uniform.

Sarg

 

[butterflyinchrist]

if you kill one to save five, is it wrong? if you didnt kill him, 5 would die, if you did kill him, 1 would die, you are in control of this situation, whats the christian thing to do?

First of all, I'v heard this argument before. If it's his life or the lives of your friends at stake kill him right? Wrong. At the end of the day you are to blame for putting yourself in the situation where you'd have to kill the "bad guy".

I think it is wrong because God loves all his creation, not just "the good guys". I know it's difficult but God loves Saddam Hussein just as much as he loves you. Jesus taught nonviolence (those who live by the sword die by the sword etc.) Do you disagree with Martin Luther King Jnr.'s method of gaining civil rights for black people? What's the better way of stopping a tank in it's tracks - putting and enemy tank in front of it, causing it to shoot you, or kneeling in front of it?

We are shown in the Bible where Armys have been formed to defend the nation of Isreal.

We are not in the nation of Israel. If you are not a jew then you are a gentile. Furthermore, as I've already said, Jesus taught love for everyone. How do love someone and shoot them at the same time?

As Christians we are to support and defend our nation.

If you are a child of God then you are subject to the laws of God's kingdom and before you say anything, yes we are called to live by the laws of the land BUT we are called to disobey them when they contradict the Word of God. To me killing someone in self defense is still disobeying the commandment "Thou shalt not kill". When we are told to love our neighbour God doesn't just mean the people of your country, He means everyone the He loves ie. EVERYONE.
Do you really think that in heaven it will matter what country you come from?

 

[White Horse]

If you are a child of God then you are subject to the laws of God's kingdom and before you say anything, yes we are called to live by the laws of the land BUT we are called to disobey them when they contradict the Word of God. To me killing someone in self defense is still disobeying the commandment "Thou shalt not kill". When we are told to love our neighbour God doesn't just mean the people of your country, He means everyone the He loves ie. EVERYONE.
Do you really think that in heaven it will matter what country you come from?

That is better translated, THOU SHALT NOT MURDER. There's a huge difference. Check out our Lord's last conversation with His disciples before He went to the cross. He told them if they didn't have a sword to sell some clothes and get one. We are to be good stewards of what God has entrusted to us, and that includes our bodies, ie, our lives (and the lives of our families, for that matter). As for the military, I think our Lord covered that when He was asked whether we should pay tribute to Caesar. "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's..." There's a big difference in the murder covered in the TEN COMMANDMENTS and killing someone in war or in self defense or the defense of someone else.

Luk 22:34 And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] shall not crow to-day before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.

Luk 22:35 And he said to them, When I sent you without purse and scrip and sandals, did ye lack anything? And they said, Nothing.

Luk 22:36 He said therefore to them, But now he that has a purse let him take it , in like manner also a scrip, and he that has none let him sell his garment and buy a sword;

Luk 22:37 for I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned with the lawless: for also the things concerning me have an end.

Luk 22:38 And they said, Lord, behold here are two swords. And he said to them, It is enough.

 

[JimfromOhio]

I have said this in other threads and my own journals.

If there was no "world police" like United Nations to control countries that are abusing their citizens, would the world be ever at peace if no one protect the oppressed citizens around the world? If we didn't have law enforcement, would every citizens ever be safe? In fact, if evil control the world, spreading the Gospel would be more difficult due to the oppressed citizens to be blinded by evil from the truth.

I am just saying, without law enforcement including military to protect human society. We even are using the military to fight "wars on drugs" around the world.

We just need to look at the WHOLE picture. God never commanded the governments to "spread the Gospels". God commanded to Christians to spread the Gospels. The Gospel is for "spiritual society" while the Governments are for "human society".

Without the protection of the human society, the world will never be at peace because sin will allow people who will do evil actions against human society. The Bible teaches that we shall not "murder". Military is not in anyway connected to "murder".

The subject of civil government pervades both the OT and the NT. It is an aspect of God’s providence and a fact of biblical history. One basic theme of the Bible is that civil government is ordained by God. The Christian is faced with the fact that the NT is silent on the specific question, does Christian responsibility to obey the God-ordained government include taking the life of others, possibly even fellow believers, simply because those individuals are soldiers of another nation? There is no “proof text” which settles that question. There is NO CLEAR direct commandment from the bible that Christians are to avoid joining military. Christians are still bound personally by a higher priority established by a higher authority. By Grace of God has made each Christian a member of the Body of Christ. The responsibility to fellow believers is abundantly clear in the NT.

Let's look at three areas of discernments

1. As a christian, it is my responsibility to trust God. Some may feel that the noncombatant believer leaves to others the defense of the nation. While I would not deny the responsibility to participate in such defense as far as conscience allows, my views differs from fellow citizens. Christians should be as concerned to pray for the security of their nation as they are to guarantee its military defense.

2. It is my responsibility to serve my government as far as conscience and my commitment to Scripture allows. As a christian, I am not to go out of the world (1 Cor 5:9–10) though I am “not of the world” (John 17:15–18). Rather I have been sent into the world. I will pray and search for ways to serve my country without conflicting my beliefs.

3. As a chrisitan, it is my responsibility to serve my fellow citizens. Serving my fellow citizens and my government may well involve going into life-threatening situations knowing that I will not be bearing arms. I do not have to use weapons but I can serve the military to help in need. My service may involve medical support, work in an office, be a machanic, engineering or any kind of non-combat related service or at least serve as a chaplain.

Dietrich Bonhoeffer, the Lutheran theologian in Nazi Germany who was executed for opposing Hitler said 'The church knows nothing of a sacredness of war. The church that prays the "Our Father" asks God only for peace.'

James 4:1-3 speaks of the origin of war. James speaks in the context of believers and how conflicts happen within the church body, but he uses the language of warring happening between people. It speaks of how war comes from the evil nature within all humans. Everyone is one between the conscience and the flesh. God has graciously given people a conscience that tells them the difference between right and wrong (Romans 2:15).

1. Christians who choose to be conscientious objectors can simply refrain from joining the military.

2. Christians who wish to pursue military service may do so.

3. The key issue is that brethren with either view should maintain unity in their churches and fellowships and not "judge each other" over the decisions made by others. God will judge the hearts of each soldiers for their actions in wars. Most likely their actions will be justified. God cares about and rescues the afflicted and the oppressed (Psalm 12:5) and we should also. One of the United States goals is to rescue the oppressed people. The government is the avenger which brings wrath on the one who practices evil. God delegates vengeance to the government since God established governments. Government also have police officers, swat officers, and other "law enforcement officers"....when the officers shoot to defend themselves from criminals. If a criminal is killed.... is the shooting justifiable? Is it murder? How will government punish police officers who are (in most cases) doing their duty to protect citizens? This applies to military who's job is to protect the country and the citizens living in that country.

So.. this is a spiritual issue for christian believers. Whether we agree or not about the war or simply having a military, we should honor and respect our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ who are serving for our country. If we don't do that, we are not loving christians.

James 2:7-9 (NIV) "Are they not the ones who are slandering the noble name of him to whom you belong? If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself,"you are doing right. But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers."

As Christians and as citizens, we should feel free to choose what we know spiritually is best for each of us. Do not judge those who chose the opposite of your views.

 

[billwald]

He should go into the medics if he wants to be useful to his country.

 

[butterflyinchrist]

Without the protection of the human society, the world will never be at peace because sin will allow people who will do evil actions against human society.

I agree with the protection bit but I have always stood by the idea that there are other ways to solve problems in the world than violence.

The Bible teaches that we shall not "murder".
Military is not in anyway connected to "murder".

How do you know? What's your definition of murder? What's God's definition of murder?

The subject of civil government pervades both the OT and the NT. It is an aspect of God’s providence and a fact of biblical history. One basic theme of the Bible is that civil government is ordained by God.

I totally agree. I never said that it wasn't. That doesn't mean that the various governments around the world are doing what they are supposed to be doing in the eyes of God.

The Christian is faced with the fact that the NT is silent on the specific question, does Christian responsibility to obey the God-ordained government include taking the life of others, possibly even fellow believers, simply because those individuals are soldiers of another nation?

No it doesn't. I really don't think that God cares which side you're on.

Let's look at three areas of discernments

1. As a christian, it is my responsibility to trust God. Some may feel that the noncombatant believer leaves to others the defense of the nation. While I would not deny the responsibility to participate in such defense as far as conscience allows, my views differs from fellow citizens. Christians should be as concerned to pray for the security of their nation as they are to guarantee its military defense.

I will pray and I do everything in my power EXCEPT pick up a weapon and fight back.

2. It is my responsibility to serve my government as far as conscience and my commitment to Scripture allows. As a christian, I am not to go out of the world (1 Cor 5:9–10) though I am “not of the world” (John 17:15–18). Rather I have been sent into the world. I will pray and search for ways to serve my country without conflicting my beliefs.

I agree.

3. As a chrisitan, it is my responsibility to serve my fellow citizens. Serving my fellow citizens and my government may well involve going into life-threatening situations knowing that I will not be bearing arms. I do not have to use weapons but I can serve the military to help in need. My service may involve medical support, work in an office, be a machanic, engineering or any kind of non-combat related service or at least serve as a chaplain.

Can you tell me where it says in the bible that you have a responsibility to serve your fellow citizens. I know it says love your neighbour and I know that my neighbour is everybody on the face of this planet. I don't recall Jesus eer saying anything about just serving citizens.

James 4:1-3 speaks of the origin of war. James speaks in the context of believers and how conflicts happen within the church body, but he uses the language of warring happening between people. It speaks of how war comes from the evil nature within all humans.

If war comes from the evil nature that is within all humans then how cvan we as believers justify taking part in it?

Everyone is one between the conscience and the flesh. God has graciously given people a conscience that tells them the difference between right and wrong (Romans 2:15).

But there are certain things that your conscience will let you do that the Holy Spirit won't.

1. Christians who choose to be conscientious objectors can simply refrain from joining the military.

That's me.

2. Christians who wish to pursue military service may do so.

We all have free will and I cannot stop anyone from doing anything even though I may not agree with it.

3. The key issue is that brethren with either view should maintain unity in their churches and fellowships and not "judge each other" over the decisions made by others. God will judge the hearts of each soldiers for their actions in wars.

Who said anything about judging?

The government is the avenger which brings wrath on the one who practices evil. God delegates vengeance to the government since God established governments.

Um I don't know where you got that from but I don't agree at all. God does not "delegate" vengeance to anyone. He is the only judge, the only avenger. I think you'll be hard pressed to find evidence to the contrary in the bible.

Government also have police officers, swat officers, and other "law enforcement officers"....when the officers shoot to defend themselves from criminals. If a criminal is killed.... is the shooting justifiable?

A criminal is no more a sinner than you or I. And God loves that criminal just as much as he loves you or I. I'd like to hear your explanation of why it would be justifiable.

So.. this is a spiritual issue for christian believers. Whether we agree or not about the war or simply having a military, we should honor and respect our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ who are serving for our country. If we don't do that, we are not loving christians.

Absolutely. The only reason I raised this point in the first place is because I love my friend so much that it will break my heart to see him doing something that I feel is completely wrong and against his very own beliefs.

As Christians and as citizens, we should feel free to choose what we know spiritually is best for each of us. Do not judge those who chose the opposite of your views.

I never have and I never will.

Another point that just came to me is the subject of retaliation. Most of the time war is all about retaliation.

Jesus said: "Do not resist and evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also."

If our main goal as believers is to be more like Jesus, can you imagine Jesus joining the military and killing to save his friends. I can't.

 

[Shizzle]

if you kill one to save five, is it wrong? if you didnt kill him, 5 would die, if you did kill him, 1 would die, you are in control of this situation, whats the christian thing to do?

thats not what i meant, in iraq many people lived unfree lives and were killed, by killing the enemy there, we save many other people,

 

[White Horse]

Butterfly, it seems like you already have your mind made up, so I'm not sure why you asked the question if it was OK. We've given you ample reason why it's OK Biblically to join the military and fight for your country, but you still insist it's wrong. And that's all well and good, you're a big girl and entitled to your opinion, right or wrong. I just don't think you should have posed the question in such a manner as to make it appear you were ernestly seeking answers. In your mind, you already have the answers.

God bless.

 

[butterflyinchrist]

I know it sounds like I've already made up my mind and in someways I admit I have. I'm willing to let my friend go with a clear conscious because I've done everything that I can do, the rest is up to God. I have prayed and told him my opinion.

All I truly want is for someone to give me strong biblical evidence for the fact that it is ok. All I've ever gotten on this subject were obscure references, or the fact that Jesus didn't not say anything against it.

I just want someone to take what I have said and address it in a clear manner, so far no one has they have just given me their opinions.

Thank you all for your posts, they have given me much food for thought. I know that this isn't an easy subject for anyone but I am really willing to believe that he is doing the right thing as long as someone gives me some solid evidence, of which I think there is none for either argument.

Thank you
God bless

 

[White Horse]

I sort of thought our Lord telling us to sell our clothes to buy a weapon, combined with the fact that He said "render unto Caesar", combined with what Paul wrote in Romans 13 was pretty clear evidence and not obscure at all.

My friend, how many times does the Bible have to say something to make it real to you?

 

[JimfromOhio]

I agree with the protection bit but I have always stood by the idea that there are other ways to solve problems in the world than violence.



How do you know? What's your definition of murder? What's God's definition of murder?



I totally agree. I never said that it wasn't. That doesn't mean that the various governments around the world are doing what they are supposed to be doing in the eyes of God.



No it doesn't. I really don't think that God cares which side you're on.



I will pray and I do everything in my power EXCEPT pick up a weapon and fight back.



I agree.



Can you tell me where it says in the bible that you have a responsibility to serve your fellow citizens. I know it says love your neighbour and I know that my neighbour is everybody on the face of this planet. I don't recall Jesus eer saying anything about just serving citizens.



If war comes from the evil nature that is within all humans then how cvan we as believers justify taking part in it?



But there are certain things that your conscience will let you do that the Holy Spirit won't.



That's me.



We all have free will and I cannot stop anyone from doing anything even though I may not agree with it.



Who said anything about judging?



Um I don't know where you got that from but I don't agree at all. God does not "delegate" vengeance to anyone. He is the only judge, the only avenger. I think you'll be hard pressed to find evidence to the contrary in the bible.



A criminal is no more a sinner than you or I. And God loves that criminal just as much as he loves you or I. I'd like to hear your explanation of why it would be justifiable.


Absolutely. The only reason I raised this point in the first place is because I love my friend so much that it will break my heart to see him doing something that I feel is completely wrong and against his very own beliefs.



I never have and I never will.

Another point that just came to me is the subject of retaliation. Most of the time war is all about retaliation.

Jesus said: "Do not resist and evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also."

If our main goal as believers is to be more like Jesus, can you imagine Jesus joining the military and killing to save his friends. I can't.

Spiritually and morally, I believe there should be no military and no wars. However, history shows that there will always be wars and we will always have militaries. In in the Book of Revelations, there is talk of wars.

Even my church's denomination is against war (anabapist) however the church understand that there will always be military (i.e. army, coast guard, police, FBI and etc). Without them, no country is safe from evil. My church will make sure the government will try anything before using war at the last resort. Wars should be avoidable however in reality, wars will not be avoidable as long as SIN controls the world.

If war is ever lawful, then peace is sometimes sinful. C.S. Lewis

War against Germany was a good example. We discovered the truth about Nazi and what they were doing to the Jewish people.

What is often neglected in discussions of the Civil War, however, is the Christian story of the war. The American Civil War was fought in the United States from 1861 until 1865 between the United States – forces coming mostly from the 23 northern states of the Union – and the newly-formed Confederate States of America, which consisted of 11 southern states that had declared their secession.

The histories written that the issue was slavery. Slavery had been abolished in most northern states, but was legal and important to the economy of the Confederacy, which depended on cheap agricultural labor. State sovereignty (for the South) and preservation of the Union (for the North) have both also been cited as issues, but both were reflections of the slavery issue, i.e., could the Federal government force southern states to end slavery or could the southern states leave the Union to preserve slavery?

Lincoln thought slavery was illegal, and was willing to use force to defend Federal law and the Union. When Confederate batteries fired on Fort Sumter and forced its surrender, he called on the states for 75,000 volunteers. Four more slave states joined the Confederacy but four remained within the Union. The Civil War had begun.

Many of the soldiers in the Union were Christians.

"I hate war as only a soldier who has lived it can, as only one who has seen its brutality, its futility, its stupidiy ." (and ) "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, from those who are cold and are not clothed. The world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children." President Dwight D. Eisenhower

 

[JimfromOhio]

Regardiing "Um I don't know where you got that from but I don't agree at all. God does not "delegate" vengeance to anyone. He is the only judge, the only avenger. I think you'll be hard pressed to find evidence to the contrary in the bible."


Romans 13:1-7 (NIV)
Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

God has a great deal to say about nations. The Bible says God sets up kings, and brings them down, and it says God has a great deal to do with the life of a nation."

 

[JimfromOhio]

1 Peter 2:13 - 17 (NIV)
Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.

 

[butterflyinchrist]

Ok, jimfromohio, I'm sorry I got it wrong. I guess what I'm trying to say is that just because they are appointed by God doesn't mean that they are making the choices that He wants them to make.

 

[JunkYardDog]

I know it sounds like I've already made up my mind and in someways I admit I have. I'm willing to let my friend go with a clear conscious because I've done everything that I can do, the rest is up to God. I have prayed and told him my opinion.

All I truly want is for someone to give me strong biblical evidence for the fact that it is ok. All I've ever gotten on this subject were obscure references, or the fact that Jesus didn't not say anything against it.

I just want someone to take what I have said and address it in a clear manner, so far no one has they have just given me their opinions.

Thank you all for your posts, they have given me much food for thought. I know that this isn't an easy subject for anyone but I am really willing to believe that he is doing the right thing as long as someone gives me some solid evidence, of which I think there is none for either argument.

Thank you
God bless

John the baptizer was sent to prepare the way of the Lord and to make His paths level. When asked about this, he answered:


Luke 3:12-14
12 Tax collectors also came to be baptized. "Teacher," they asked, "what should we do?"
13 "Don't collect any more than you are required to," he told them.
14 Then some soldiers asked him, "And what should we do?" He replied, "Don't extort money and don't accuse people falsely-- be content with your pay."

 

[White Horse]

John the baptizer was sent to prepare the way of the Lord and to make His paths level. When asked about this, he answered:


Luke 3:12-14
12 Tax collectors also came to be baptized. "Teacher," they asked, "what should we do?"
13 "Don't collect any more than you are required to," he told them.
14 Then some soldiers asked him, "And what should we do?" He replied, "Don't extort money and don't accuse people falsely-- be content with your pay."

Good one! Never even noticed that one before. Had it been wrong to be a soldier, He'd have told them to get out of the military.

 

[Kasia]

The whole "joining the military" question is tricky, I remember there was a thread a while back about whether it was biblical for a Christian to join the military or not (and it got to be quite the heated argument).
I have a friend who joined up with the Marines and he is as Christian as you can get: he goes to church every Sunday, he does bible study, he dabbles in apologetics, etc. I've had ample conversations with him and he, like your friend, has wanted to be a Marine since he was a kid and he personally believes what he's doing is right. He is willing to make the ultimate sacrifice not only to protect us but to also liberate oppressed people.
It's very difficult having to deal with a situation like this, but all we can really do is pray that God guides him no matter which path your friend choses. I'll definately keep your friend, especially that he does not stray from his Christian faith.