Can You Answer These Questions On The Shadow Sabbaths Of Colossians 2:16, 17

[VictorC]

Vic,

The TOS of this forum does not require Bible support for ideas expressed here, or written support of any source.

Surely you can provide Bible statements that show the thoughts presented as untrue ideas.

Joe

Most people in the same position you're currently in don't immediately recall where they heard an idea, such as the ones that you wrote about as if they were an accepted fact. The history of many of those participating here makes that more than simply possible - they have heard whole sermons based on Ellen White and accepted them as if they were Biblical without verification. Hence, writing a mistake that was thought true happens a lot in this venue, and my challenge was for you to verify the authenticity of the ideas you promoted. Most will respond to such a challenge to verify what they wrote with a search of the Bible on their own, and in seeking support will verify the authenticity.

That wasn't your response. You openly admitted that Biblical support doesn't exist. Shifting the burden of verification to another person -which remains your own burden- reveals a disinterest in separating those ideas that are not Biblical from those that are. How you responded reveals a motive of promoting a thesis you knew was unBiblical when you wrote it, and a continued unapologetic devotion to the ideas you presented suggests malice on your part.

I already documented where the great controversy theme comes from on another thread concerning the 28 Fundamental Beliefs, and where the idea of satan's accusation is found. Others with a motive to support the FBs have sought to support that theme from the Bible without success. It is incredibly disingenuous of you to promote a thesis you already know is false.

 

[Joe67]

Most people in the same position you're currently in don't immediately recall where they heard an idea, such as the ones that you wrote about as if they were an accepted fact. The history of many of those participating here makes that more than simply possible - they have heard whole sermons based on Ellen White and accepted them as if they were Biblical without verification. Hence, writing a mistake that was thought true happens a lot in this venue, and my challenge was for you to verify the authenticity of the ideas you promoted. Most will respond to such a challenge to verify what they wrote with a search of the Bible on their own, and in seeking support will verify the authenticity.

That wasn't your response. You openly admitted that Biblical support doesn't exist. Shifting the burden of verification to another person -which remains your own burden- reveals a disinterest in separating those ideas that are not Biblical from those that are. How you responded reveals a motive of promoting a thesis you knew was unBiblical when you wrote it, and a continued unapologetic devotion to the ideas you presented suggests malice on your part.

I already documented where the great controversy theme comes from on another thread concerning the 28 Fundamental Beliefs, and where the idea of satan's accusation is found. Others with a motive to support the FBs have sought to support that theme from the Bible without success. It is incredibly disingenuous of you to promote a thesis you already know is false.

Vic,

TOS means "Terms of Service".

Since this is a discussion forum where people express what they believe and not a debate forum; there is not a need for people to "proof text" their posts.

If a written text is quoted from any source, it is for convenience of expression and not as an authoritative proof. The absence of written documentation is not evidence for or against the validity of the idea presented.

Each thought rises or fall under the spirit of its own specific gravity.

Let each one be fully persuaded in their own inward man.

Joe

 

[VictorC]

Since this is a discussion forum where people express what they believe and not a (place where anyone provides answers); there is not a need for people to "proof text" their posts.

Expressing a belief known to be detached from reality speaks volumes concerning the integrity of the person retaining it.

"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
- Samuel Adams​

 

[Joe67]

1 Cor 8:1-3
:1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.

2 And if any man think that he knoweth anything, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.

3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.KJV

To be known of God is the only real truth that will not be shaken and pass away.

Joe

 

[Martinman]

MM,

Would you please answer these questions through the use of other Scriptures, preferably 3 questions to a post and as concise as you can?

I believe that these are all symbols of the Lord Jesus, but I have not studied these Scriptures enough for the symbols to be revealed to me by the holy Ghost in a way that would satisfy these questions.

We would not be still in this present evil world, in our vile bodies, if all the symbols of Christ and his Body had been fulfilled, per the witness in Revelation concerning the mystery of God being completed.

Rev 10:7
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.KJV

Col 2:1-2
1 For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and for them at Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh;

2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
KJV

Joe

ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS​

First, I would point out that there is a time element in connection with the “MYSTERY” of God, as brought out in the text you gave--”But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the “MYSTERY” of God should be finished....” Revelation 10:7


“[Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of these glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:” Colossians 1:26, 27


“And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God:” Mark 4:11

“The secret [things belong] unto the LORD our God:but those [things which are] revealed [belong] unto us and to our children for ever,...” Deuteronomy 29:29


“The significance of the Jewish economy is not yet fully comprehended. Truths vast and profound are shadowed forth in its rites and symbols. The gospel is the key that unlocks its mysteries.” Christ's Object Lessons, 133


“Around the sanctuary and its solemn services mystically gathered the grand truths which were to be developed through succeeding generations.”Faith I Live By, 194


This next text reinforces this time element again.


“But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son,...” Galatians 4:4

“But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.” 1 Thessalonians 5:1 “But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.” 1 Thessalonians 5:4


Jesus told His disciples that it was given unto them to know the mystery of the kingdom. Yes, there are things that are secret, known to God only, but that which is revealed belongs to us and to our children forever. One of the secret things not yet revealed, is the “day and the hour of the coming of the Son of Man,” which the Father will reveal to us at the appointed time, according to the prophecies of Moses.


The prophecies of Moses are the foundation to understand all prophecies, both in the events foretold and for understanding the precise time when these prophecies would be fulfilled.
The focus of my questions deals with this time element from the prophecies of Moses.


These prophecies show such precise timing, in that, they reveal:


the exact hour of the day


the exact day of the week


the exact day of the month


the exact month of the year


the exact year within the Sabbatical cycle of years


the exact Sabbatical cycle of years within the Jubile cycle of years


and the exact Jubile cycle.


The Messiah often referred to this precision in the prophecies ,when He spoke to the disciples and said, “My time is not yet come,” John 7:6, or “My time is at hand.” Matthew 26:18, and other similar phrases.


The statement He made when He announced His public ministry. “This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.” Luke 4:21. He had just read the Jubile prophecy of Isaiah 61, stopping in the middle of the sentence, omitting the portions of the prophecy that apply to the last Jubile at the end of time.


The first coming of the Messiah did not fulfill all of the prophecies given in the old sanctuary system. He only fulfilled the types relating to the first advent. In this system there are types which relate to the second advent, as well, that must be fulfilled in the same manner as the first advent types—not only as to the event, but, also, as to the exact and precise time that they were rehearsed in the annual ceremonies for so many centuries.

“Because He hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness...” Acts 17:31


The 12 annual “Sabbaths” in the King James Version dispersed among the feast days, are the “Sabbaths” mentioned in Colossians 2:16, 17, as “shadows” of things to come.These 12 show where the 7th-day Sabbath would be in relation to the great events in the plan of salvation when these events would be fulfilled.


Question #1


(a) Passover was celebrated on the 14th day of the first month (Lev. 23:5), a day before a “shadow” Sabbath, because the Messiah was crucified on the 14thday of the first month, the day just before a 7th-day Sabbath (“because it was the preparation,” John 19:31). And on the 16th day the Wave Sheaf offering was celebrated (Lev.23:11), the Messiah rose from the dead, the day after the 7th-day Sabbath that year (John 20:1).


(b) This “shadow” Sabbath, the day after the Passover, also the first day of the feast of Unleavened Bread, represented the 7th-day Sabbath which came the day after the crucifixion.

The Wave Sheaf offering was specified to be on the “morrow after the Sabbath the priest shall wave it” (Lev. 23:11), because that was the day that Christ presented His sacrifice to the Father (John 20:17). “Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.” (1 Cor. 15:23). It was the day after the 7th-day Sabbath (Matthew 28:1).


Question #2


(a) The literal translations of the Bible show the day before the Wave Sheaf Offering to be a “Sabbath”, because in the year that the Messiah was crucified, this day was a 7th-day Sabbath (Matthew 28:1, 6).


(b) This scheduling shows where the 7th-day Sabbath would occur when these feasts, Passover and Wave Sheaf, would be fulfilled in the year of the crucifixion and resurrection of the Messiah.

 

[Martinman]

Question #3


(a) The day before the Day of Pentecost is always called a “Sabbath” in the prophecies of Moses (Lev 23:15 16), because in the year of fulfillment it would be a 7th-day Sabbath.


(b) The Day of Pentecost was never called a “Sabbath” in the prophecies of Moses, because when it was fulfilled it followed a 7th-day Sabbath, and occurred on the first day of the week (Acts 2:1).


(c)The purpose of this scheduling is to show where the 7th-day Sabbath occurred in relation to the Day of Pentecost.

Question #4


(a) The day after the 7th day of Unleavened Bread is called a “Sabbath” because in the year that the Messiah was crucified this day fell on a 7th-day Sabbath and was the first Sabbath in the 7 Sabbath-count to the day before the day of Pentecost (Lev. 23:15, 16).


(b)The 7thday of the feast of Unleavened Bread is never called a “Sabbath” because this would disrupt the 7 day weekly cycle that God instituted. In the typical system the “shadow” Sabbaths followed a 7-day sequence, as well. Therefore, the 7th day of Unleavened Bread would be only 6 days from a day named as a “Sabbath” previously, and also, the very next day is the first Sabbath in the 7 Sabbath-count to the day before the day of Pentecost.


Question #5


There is an exact 7-day sequence between the “shadow” Sabbaths because these “Sabbaths” were prophecies of 7th-day Sabbaths in the year of fulfillment.


Question #6


The relationship between these types of “Sabbaths” and the 7-th day Sabbath is that one is the prophecy, the other is the fulfillment. We have the interpretation that the Messiah gave when He fulfilled the types relating to His first advent. He fulfilled them as to the event, as well as, to the timing.


Question #7


(a) I don't have an answer as to why pastors call both the 7th day of Unleavened Bread and the Day of Pentecost, “Sabbaths”, when the Bible does not.


(b)No one has given anyone authorityto change any of God's appointed times. “God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed,...” Act 17:25, 26.


He never gave us permission to set times and seasons or to change the times and seasons that He has set. Let us never confuse God's time-setting with man's time-setting. We should be wary of any time-setting by man.


Question #8


(a) When the first new moon of spring falls on a 7th-day Sabbath, all 8 of the “shadow” Sabbaths in the spring feasts, fall on 7th-day Sabbaths because the “shadow” Sabbaths follow a 7-day sequence.


The new moon on the 7th-day Sabbath activates the “shadow” Sabbaths, by causing them to fall on 7th-day Sabbaths. This is one reason that we will worship God on the new moon and on the Sabbath in the new heaven and the new earth. (Isaiah 66:23).


(b) Through the Messiah's fulfillment of the types relating to the first advent, we have the interpretation for the fulfillment of the types relating to His second advent.

The new moon of the 7thmonth falling on a 7thday Sabbath causes all 4 of the “shadow” Sabbaths in the fall feasts to occur on 7th-day Sabbaths, as well, although not all in that same year. See the complete answer under Question 10.


Question #9


The Day of Atonement is always called a “Sabbath”, because it met fulfillment and will be fulfilled on the 7th-day Sabbath. When the Messiah read the Jubile prophecy on the Day of Atonement on a 7th-day Sabbath in the synogague, and then pronounced, “This day is this Scripture fulfilled in your ears.” Luke 4:21, the Day of Atonement met its 7th-day Sabbath fulfillment. His stopping in the middle of the sentence, and not reading the phrase pertaining to the “day of vengeance of our God”, shows that the Day of Atonement has a future 7th-day Sabbath fulfillment at the time of the day of vengeance.


Question #10


(a) Since the Day of Atonement is the only feast day with extra-special significance in two consecutive years, the Sabbatical year and the year of Jubile, and sincethe other fall feasts have extra-special significance only in the Sabbatical year, this necessitates that the Day of Atonement must occur on the 10thday of the 7thmonth, in order for there to be a perfect 7-day sequence from the Feast of Trumpets, the first day of the Feast of Tabernacles and the eighth day of the Feast of Tabernacles to the Day of Atonement of the Jubile year, when all the slaves were set free, ending the entire prophetic cycle.


The Fall Feasts are prophesied to be fulfilled in a Sabbatical year because of the extra-special prophetic ceremonies that were to be performedonly in the Sabbatical year (Deuteronomy 31:10-16). On the Day of Atonementa certain class of Hebrew slaves were also set free only in the Sabbatical year (Deuteronomy 15:1, 12) The year of release is the Sabbatical year.


(b) There is only one feast day that has extra-special significance in more than just one year. That feast day is the Day of Atonement, which has extra-special significance in the Sabbatical year, but, its greatest significance is in the Jubile year, which always follows a seventh Sabbatical year.
It is in the Jubile year that the Day of Atonement follows a perfect 7-day sequence from the last feast day (the 8thday of the Feast of Tabernacles) of the Sabbatical year


This is the reason that the Day of Atonement must be on the 10th day of the 7th month, in order to have a perfect 7-day sequence in all the “shadow” Sabbaths of the fall feasts in the years of their greatest significance, the Sabbatical and the Jubile years,so that all four of the fall feast days occur on a 7th-day Sabbath.


Of course, the 7th-day Sabbath fulfillment in the fall feasts can only occur if the new moon of the 7thmonth falls on a 7th-day Sabbath in the 7thSabbatical year, the year before the grand fulfillment of the Jubile year.


Question #11


These “shadow” Sabbaths in Colossians 2:16, 17 are shadows or prophecies of 7th-day Sabbaths. A shadow cannot make a shadow. Therefore, the “shadow” Sabbaths are caused by the real 7th-day Sabbath and are shadows of it. The 7th-day Sabbath cannot be a “shadow”, or a type, or a prophecy, because it is the substance that created the “shadows”.


Question #12


(a) Please see answers to Question 10.
(b) Please see answers to Question 10.
(c)Please see answers to Question 10.


Question #13


(a) All four of the fall feast days are called “Sabbaths” because in their main fulfillments, all four must occur on 7th-day Sabbaths. When the first day of the Feast of Tabernacles falls on a 7th-day Sabbath, then the 8th day of the Feast of Tabernacles falls on the next 7th-day Sabbath. If one continues the 7-day sequence until the next Day of Atonement, this Day of Atonement will occur on a 7th-day Sabbath, also.


(b) This phenomenon occurs so often in the Hebrew calendar to keep the prospect of the grand fulfillments of the fall feast days on 7th-day Sabbaths in the great final Sabbatical and Jubile year.

 

[VictorC]

Therefore, the “shadow” Sabbaths are caused by the real 7th-day Sabbath and are shadows of it. The 7th-day Sabbath cannot be a “shadow”, or a type, or a prophecy, because it is the substance that created the “shadows”.

Wrong - the weekly sabbath was itself a shadow, cast by the reality of God's rest that remained to be attained by those who only had the sabbath. The weekly sabbath wasn't the reality, you still haven't found what it pointed toward, and your quaint model doesn't even address it.

 

[Joe67]

MM,

Thank you for posting answers to your questions.

The Lord gives me the following observation.

A cloud is the means of a shadow being cast. The shadow is a means of relief from the heat of the sun.

"He that dwells in the secret place of the Most High, will abide under the shadow of the Almighty." Psalm 91.

Our resting place IN and UNDER is our sabbath rest. IN and UNDER are prepositions that symbolize 2 distinct attributes concerning Jesus Christ as our sabbath rest.

The secret place of the Most High is our Jubilee sabbath.

Joe