Can we have the Holy Spirit within before "technically" coming to repentance?

[YahuahSaves]

Just a discussion here, I'm not interested in debating.

I just want to know what others views are on this question? If a person already had a background in religion, believed in their heart in the Heavenly Father, but was never taught properly about the Holy Trinity (e.g. that Jesus is the Son of God, but is not God) could they still have the Holy Spirit convicting them and guiding them in things like spiritual discernment?

edit* I ask this question because it seems before I came to Christ, I was being drawn.

John 6

44 For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up. 45 As it is written in the Scriptures, ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

I have recently (in the past year) come to Christ. I'm asking this question out of curiosity, because the only point of difference to my experiences with God has been Jesus. (Albeit, the proper addition of Jesus to my understanding has made a big difference).

Experience appreciated, thanks

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Just a discussion here, I'm not interested in debating.

I just want to know what others views are on this question? If a person already had a background in religion, believed in their heart in the Heavenly Father, but was never taught properly about the Holy Trinity (e.g. that Jesus is the Son of God, but is not God) could they still have the Holy Spirit convicting them and guiding them in things like spiritual discernment?

I have recently (in the past year) come to Christ. I'm asking this question out of curiosity, because the only point of difference to my experiences with God has been Jesus. (Albeit, the proper addition of Jesus to my understanding has made a big difference).

Experience appreciated, thanks

One needs to repent from unbelief to belief. Then the Holy Spirit will dwell in the beliver. Blessings.

 

[YahuahSaves]

One needs to repent from unbelief to belief. Then the Holy Spirit will dwell in the beliver. Blessings.

OK. so how was your conscience expressed before you became a believer? Did you ever think or wonder about God? (I ask because you don't mention your personal experience).

 

[Maria Billingsley]

OK. so how was your conscience expressed before you became a believer? Did you ever think or wonder about God? (I ask because you don't mention your personal experience).

Someone told me about Jesus Christ of Nazareth and I loved Him. By hearing is expressly how scripture tells us how to know Him. Our part is to believe. Then He will make His Home in the beliver.

John 14
If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.

Blessings.

 

[YahuahSaves]

Someone told me about Jesus Christ of Nazareth and I loved Him. By hearing is expressly how scripture tells us how to know Him. Our part is to believe. Then He will make His Home in the beliver.

John 14
If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.

Blessings.

So you didn't have a conscience before believing in Christ?

 

[St_Worm2]

Hello @Pipp@, I don't know if this is exactly what you are after, but part of what you said above (are wondering about) seems to touch on a very controversial issue within Christendom, one side (Calvinist/Reformed) teaching that we are quickened or regenerated/caused to be "born again" by God PRIOR to our coming to saving faith, while the Arminian/Free Will side holds to the opposite belief, that we must choose to come to faith apart from these things, such that God regenerates us/causes us to be born again afterwards.

If this is something that you think that you'd like to hear a little bit more about, just let me/us know

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - in direct answer to one of your questions in the OP, I do not believe that we need to have a COMPLETE understanding of who Jesus truly is to come to saving faith in Him. On the flipside, if someone who claims/believes that they are already saved (and therefore indwelt, led and taught by the Holy Spirit) refuses to believe the truth about His Deity and/or the fact of His dual nature (once it has been presented to them and they have had time to study and consider it), then I would think it a very good idea for that person to question whether or not they are truly a believer.

Ezekiel 36​

26 "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.​

27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances."​

​

Ephesians 2​

1 You were dead in your trespasses and sins,​

2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.​

3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.​

4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,​

5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved).​

.

 

[firesoforion]

I don't know exactly how it works, but I became a believer in my 20s and I can point to times when I felt things before becoming a believer which directed me to Christ, and which felt similar to the Holy Spirit nudgings I've gotten since. Was this the Holy Spirit? That becomes an interesting question. The Bible seems to say that the Holy Spirit indwells you after believing, but at the same time it was something. And we know that God works within the hearts and lives of every man, to the extent that no person will have any excuse as to why they didn't know Him. Is that the Holy Spirit, or some other Godly force? I think Holy Spirit, but am not sure.

 

[YahuahSaves]

I don't know exactly how it works, but I became a believer in my 20s and I can point to times when I felt things before becoming a believer which directed me to Christ, and which felt similar to the Holy Spirit nudgings I've gotten since. Was this the Holy Spirit? That becomes an interesting question. The Bible seems to say that the Holy Spirit indwells you after believing, but at the same time it was something. And we know that God works within the hearts and lives of every man, to the extent that no person will have any excuse as to why they didn't know Him. Is that the Holy Spirit, or some other Godly force? I think Holy Spirit, but am not sure.

Thank you for your honest reply.
It is a difficult question to answer, and is why I asked it. I too cannot say for certain, if I just look at scripture alone.

Strange thing though, when I finally knew Jesus, it was as if I'd always known him...was this your experience?

 

[St_Worm2]

Hello @firesoforion, I have a very similar story to yours, one that began when I was still an unbeliever on my 25th birthday, and that ended two months after my 30th birthday with me FINALLY coming to saving faith and being justified by God

It is, indeed, a very interesting question (how salvation actually happens, that is)

My thoughts on it (for now anyway) are these, I do not believe that I was permanently "indwelt" by the Holy Spirit until the day that I came to saving faith in the Lord Jesus, but I do believe that the Holy Spirit was busy at work in my heart and mind, softening them and causing me to want to question my very fun and successful, but very sinful life (as well to seek out God and His truth for the answers that I was looking for).

Interestingly, I started to find myself (by no doing of my own) surrounded, both at work and away from work, by an increasing number of born again believers who sought to share the Gospel with me/help me clearly understand my GREAT need for the Savior.

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - there are some things that we may never know (at least not on this side of the grave anyway), but we can trust that God has given us all that we need to know to find Him and to believe Him (and to believe in Him) As the Bible tells us,

Deuteronomy 29​

29 The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of this law.​

.

 

[firesoforion]

My thoughts on it (for now anyway) are these, I do not believe that I was permanently "indwelt" by the Holy Spirit until the day that I came to saving faith in the Lord Jesus, but I do believe that the Holy Spirit was busy at work in my heart and mind, softening them and causing me to want to question my very fun and successful, but very sinful life (as well to seek out God and His truth for the answers that I was looking for).

That strikes me as right!

Thank you for your honest reply.
It is a difficult question to answer, and is why I asked it. I too cannot say for certain, if I just look at scripture alone.

Strange thing though, when I finally knew Jesus, it was as if I'd always known him...was this your experience?

I mean, I never put it in exactly those words, but yes, there was an intense feeling of rightness and "home." Like finding the place you were always meant for, without realizing it.

 

[YahuahSaves]

Hello @firesoforion, I have a very similar story to yours, one that began when I was still an unbeliever on my 25th birthday, and that ended two months after my 30th birthday with me FINALLY coming to saving faith and being justified by God

It is, indeed, a very interesting question (how salvation actually happens, that is)

My thoughts on it (for now anyway) are these, I do not believe that I was permanently "indwelt" by the Holy Spirit until the day that I came to saving faith in the Lord Jesus, but I do believe that the Holy Spirit was busy at work in my heart and mind, softening them and causing me to want to question my very fun and successful, but very sinful life (as well to seek out God and His truth for the answers that I was looking for).

Interestingly, I started to find myself (by no doing of my own) surrounded, both at work and away from work, by an increasing number of born again believers who sought to share the Gospel with me/help me clearly understand my GREAT need for the Savior.

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - there are some things that we may never know (at least not on this side of the grave anyway), but we can trust that God has given us all that we need to know to find Him and to believe Him (and to believe in Him) As the Bible tells us,

Deuteronomy 29​

29 The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of this law.​

.

Thanks for responding, awesome how God puts people on our path to draw us to him.

Like I said in the OP, I grew up in religion. I was taught about the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but not that the 3 were one.

I was confused about the Cross and sin, so as I grew older, I developed my own beliefs about who I thought God was.

I started to seriously reject God in my mid 20s after I lost a very close friend. (Who I had prayed for God to heal) which he didn't. I still believed (knew) he was real, I just turned away from him, which led me deeper into sin. I happened to have a born-again believer friend, who wrote me letters in this dark time, and always added scriptures that would directly align with my circumstances at the time, I knew it was God trying to get through, but I viewed him with contempt. (Something I regret now).

So, what are your thoughts on spiritual discernment? My drawing from God started in 2017. (Very slow). About 6 months before repentance, my sister put on "the secret" for me to watch. At first, I got an uneasy feeling. And the whole idea of "manifesting" your reality in my opinion was ridiculous (considering my background), I was thinking, there's no mention of God and I was disturbed by it. There were 2 people in particular being interviewed. As they were talking, their eyes looked black and I was thinking they look creepy and evil. And then I thought, I should stop judging. And then by the end I thought it was OK. Like, it had some good points in it at the end but I told my sister I still thought the idea of "manifesting" was stupid.

A few weeks on, I was thinking about it and thought I'm going to try it via journalling. As I was writing I kept having this kind of "awareness" that God was watching and not approving, so I just put it aside. I've had that feeling before when I was a young teen, and I had a crush on a boy at school. The wicca stuff was becoming more mainstream and I had gotten this spell and items like a rose quartz etc, and the spell said to bury items along with the picture of the person in the ground. As I was burying it, I had this awareness of God watching, I looked up at the sky and sort of grimaced, but kept on. After about half an hour, the feeling wouldn't leave me that it was wrong - so I dug it up again and didn't try anything after that until I tried tarot in my late teens/early 20s.

 

[YahuahSaves]

Hello @Pipp@, I don't know if this is exactly what you are after, but part of what you said above (are wondering about) seems to touch on a very controversial issue within Christendom, one side (Calvinist/Reformed) teaching that we are quickened or regenerated/caused to be "born again" by God PRIOR to our coming to saving faith, while the Arminian/Free Will side holds to the opposite belief, that we must choose to come to faith apart from these things, such that God regenerates us/causes us to be born again AFTER afterwards.

If this is something that you think that you'd like to hear a little bit more about, just let me/us know

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - in direct answer to one of your questions in the OP, I do not believe that we need to have a COMPLETE understanding of who Jesus truly is to come to saving faith in Him. On the flipside, if someone who claims/believes that they are already saved (and therefore indwelt, led and taught by the Holy Spirit) refuses to believe the truth about His Deity and/or the fact of His dual nature (once it has been presented to them and they have had time to study and consider it), then I would think it a very good idea for that person to question whether or not they are truly a believer.

Ezekiel 36​

26 "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.​

27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances."​

​

Ephesians 2​

1 You were dead in your trespasses and sins,​

2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.​

3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.​

4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,​

5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved).​

.

Thanks for your input... I guess my experience would be the former then?

I actually wonder if it can be both, depending on the individual?

 

[St_Worm2]

Hello again @Pipp@, I think there is too much to talk about tonight (it's pretty late here in the States where I am), but I'll be back tomorrow sometime to reply (Dv).

I remember reading about The Secret as a bit of phenomenon, but I never really looked into it until tonight. Here's an article from a Christian online apologetics group that calls themselves GotQuestions.org. If you'd like to read it, you can do so here: What is “The Secret”? What is the law of attraction? | GotQuestions.org (they explain how someone might understand certain parts of The Secret as somehow aligning with Christian thought, but they go on to explain why a true understanding of what is being taught in The Secret is anything but harmonizable with the Christian faith).

After reading what you and the folks at Got Questions believe about The Secret, I think you will find that your concerns about it are pretty much the same theirs are (though it's often interesting to hear someone else's thoughts, of course ).

Just FYI, I read their article quickly (as I am fading fast right now ), but I don't believe that I found anything in it that I disagreed with.

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - here's a verse that seems like it might be the Christian "version" (so to speak) of the idea behind, The Secret. It's a wonderful command that is linked to a wonderful promise from God. The biggest difference is what, or better, Who, we focus all of our attention on.

BTW, be sure to understand what the command half (our half of the verse) is actually telling us to do, as you can end up turning the Lord (in this case, Jehovah Jireh) into a Cosmic Sugar-Daddy (which He, of course, is not). We can talk more about this tomorrow too, if you'd like to

Psalm 37​

4 Delight yourself in the Lord, and He will give you the desires of your heart.​

 

[YahuahSaves]

After reading what you and the folks at Got Questions believe about The Secret, I think you will find that your concerns about it are pretty much the same theirs are (though it's often interesting to hear someone else's thoughts, of course ).

Just FYI, I read their article quickly (as I am fading fast right now ), but I don't believe that I found anything in it that I disagreed with.

Thanks for the article, but I already know what it is all about and it's actually a counterfeit from Satan, leading people to believe they are "in control" of their own lives and destiny (which we are by a matter of choice to follow God or Satan (life or death). It leads people to believe they can have the desires they want apart from God and looking at HIM as an "energy force" without any identity, is another way people avoid looking for or to him at all.

I'm sorry to quote scripture here, but people seem to think, (even some Christians believe) we're here for ourselves, and Gods just going to automatically fulfill their every want, or that because people are "saved" we can do it with his power whether we look to him or not.

Colossians 1

Christ Is Supreme

15 Christ is the visible image of the invisible God.
He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation,[e]
16 for through him God created everything
in the heavenly realms and on earth.
He made the things we can see
and the things we can’t see—
such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world.
Everything was created through him and for him.
17 He existed before anything else,
and he holds all creation together.

I won't say much more, otherwise I will veer off-topic but (regardless if you believe) Satan is very real. I know because before officially coming to Christ, I didn't believe in evil except what humans are capable of. I never believed a loving God would create such a being in the first place. BOY, was I  wrong! Just Before I came to Christ, God allowed me to see and understand the lies I was believing... suffice to say, it's what made me run to the church the very next day and ask God for forgiveness. This thing had tried to convince me it was God and trying to force me to "accept Jesus into my heart" in order to fullfill my "destiny", the only thing that saved me that night is my knowledge that God gave us choice.

Again, sorry for the long-winded response but this stuff fills me with so much disgust I can't help but be honest about what I've experienced, in the hope that I can help even one person to seek the truth, because that is Jesus.

 

[spiritfilledjm]

Just a discussion here, I'm not interested in debating.

I just want to know what others views are on this question? If a person already had a background in religion, believed in their heart in the Heavenly Father, but was never taught properly about the Holy Trinity (e.g. that Jesus is the Son of God, but is not God) could they still have the Holy Spirit convicting them and guiding them in things like spiritual discernment?

edit* I ask this question because it seems before I came to Christ, I was being drawn.

John 6

44 For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up. 45 As it is written in the Scriptures, ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

I have recently (in the past year) come to Christ. I'm asking this question out of curiosity, because the only point of difference to my experiences with God has been Jesus. (Albeit, the proper addition of Jesus to my understanding has made a big difference).

Experience appreciated, thanks

I want to say no...but at the same time I don't think that's right based on the story of Balam along with Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

The Holy Spirit will operate through whomever He chooses regardless of their repentant, or lack-there-of, heart. God operated through Balam even though he was unrepentantly greedy, God operated, operates, and will operate, through those who also are unrepentant. It's just for all the good they do, it is worthless because they are non-repentant meaning they have truly not given their whole heart to God.

 

[Blade]

Just a discussion here, I'm not interested in debating.

I just want to know what others views are on this question? If a person already had a background in religion, believed in their heart in the Heavenly Father, but was never taught properly about the Holy Trinity (e.g. that Jesus is the Son of God, but is not God) could they still have the Holy Spirit convicting them and guiding them in things like spiritual discernment?

edit* I ask this question because it seems before I came to Christ, I was being drawn.

John 6

44 For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up. 45 As it is written in the Scriptures, ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

I have recently (in the past year) come to Christ. I'm asking this question out of curiosity, because the only point of difference to my experiences with God has been Jesus. (Albeit, the proper addition of Jesus to my understanding has made a big difference).

Experience appreciated, thanks

No. Luke 11:13 is only for believers. The 120 were already saved yet were told to wait for the promise. That promise what the sweet sweet holy Spirit that Jesus said Hew will pray to the Father and He will send another comforter. "And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever". I do not understand why some do not ask when were told by Christ to ask. Christ asked the Father.

So no one can have the holy spirit before they are saved. What does happen is some ask from the Holy Spirit and are not saved and they can get another spirit. God can not lie any believer that asks the Father for the holy spirit will only get the only spirit and no other. If I said that good lol.

 

[YahuahSaves]

I want to say no...but at the same time I don't think that's right based on the story of Balam along with Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

The Holy Spirit will operate through whomever He chooses regardless of their repentant, or lack-there-of, heart. God operated through Balam even though he was unrepentantly greedy, God operated, operates, and will operate, through those who also are unrepentant. It's just for all the good they do, it is worthless because they are non-repentant meaning they have truly not given their whole heart to God.

No. Luke 11:13 is only for believers. The 120 were already saved yet were told to wait for the promise. That promise what the sweet sweet holy Spirit that Jesus said Hew will pray to the Father and He will send another comforter. "And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever". I do not understand why some do not ask when were told by Christ to ask. Christ asked the Father.

So no one can have the holy spirit before they are saved. What does happen is some ask from the Holy Spirit and are not saved and they can get another spirit. God can not lie any believer that asks the Father for the holy spirit will only get the only spirit and no other. If I said that good lol.

So you guys don't believe the Holy Spirit can lead a person to repentance through conviction and spiritual discernment?

What was your experience with such things? What made you repent and believe?

 

[spiritfilledjm]

So you guys don't believe the Holy Spirit can lead a person to repentance through conviction and spiritual discernment?

What was your experience with such things? What made you repent and believe?

My bad, I was responding based mainly on the question in the subject and the fact that it's in the "Spiritual Gifts" sub-forum assuming you were asking can someone operate in the power of the gifts of the Holy Spirit without coming to repentance.

It is the Holy Spirit that leads someone to repent, it's our job to heed His voice and surrender our all to Him.

 

[Francis Drake]

Just a discussion here, I'm not interested in debating.

I just want to know what others views are on this question? If a person already had a background in religion, believed in their heart in the Heavenly Father, but was never taught properly about the Holy Trinity (e.g. that Jesus is the Son of God, but is not God) could they still have the Holy Spirit convicting them and guiding them in things like spiritual discernment?

edit* I ask this question because it seems before I came to Christ, I was being drawn.

John 6

44 For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up. 45 As it is written in the Scriptures, ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

I have recently (in the past year) come to Christ. I'm asking this question out of curiosity, because the only point of difference to my experiences with God has been Jesus. (Albeit, the proper addition of Jesus to my understanding has made a big difference).

Experience appreciated, thanks

Absolutely yes.
I heard God speak to me and tell me he lived in my heart more than 10 years before I heard the gospel or repented.

 

[YahuahSaves]

Absolutely yes.
I heard God speak to me and tell me he lived in my heart more than 10 years before I heard the gospel or repented.

That's interesting, can you give any details of that, like how he led you from that day forward until you repented? (If you want to, no pressure).

I had an experience 5 years ago where I was shown God is already  there within our spirit..like the whole reason we're even alive is because of him...and it is our minds and our human will that keeps us separated from the truth. (Of course, I could not verify that with scripture alone I don't think) but in the case of redemption, when Jesus died on the cross, and from that point forward, he has been drawing people to him. He took the sins of the whole world, and for all time, upon himself - and now its up to us to answer his call...

One of these days I'm going to do some serious journalling, and study of scripture, but since I'm "newish" to the faith, and early in my walk, I don't want to make a mistake and be deceived, so I am taking my time to learn of him through the lens of the bible alone.