Can we forgive God?

[Zstar]

What's so problematic about depictions of the Abrahamaic deity is mostly that it always conforms to the cultural pre-conceptions of the region and the era it was written in.

Take books that were written at a time when kings were expected to exterminate their enemies ruthlessly to gain more glory for themselves, and what you get are deities who send plagues and kill infants to gain more glory.
Take books that were written by middle-aged Arabian merchants, and what you get is a deity who thinks along the pragmatic lines of middle-aged Arabian merchants.

Of course, the Bahai'i will probably jump into the breach and claim that God geared his message towards the progressive understanding of mankind, always working with the "raw material" that was at hand. But why that stopped God from proclaiming straight away that slavery is not a good idea, or to use his tremendous power to resolve conflicts peacefully rather than with plagues, pillars of flame and slain firstborn... well, it just doesn't quite fit.

The source of these ideas is something I've always been interested in. How would you compare the timelines (I know there is dispute on this) of Abraham and Moses to Zoroaster? What about his differant concepts, a matter of the culture of a region?

(BTW, I've heard it said Scribes of Issiah disputed his teachings by a certian few texts there, any light on this?)

 

[Zstar]

Why do we need to forgive God? Did he make any mistake?

Interesting hugh? Maybe we will get noticed among the major posters.

 

[razeontherock]

my question is why does God allow Satan to be with humanity? Does he not have the power to move him, or does he have a reason for keeping Satan here?

I addressed this, at length.

Why do you think God put the tree of knowledge in the garden of Eden?

Jeshu addressed this, at length. So did i, and we agree, but I think Jeshu maybe stated it better. I haven't yet seen antz address this, but maybe it's not something G-d has specifically shown him?

And then took him back 3 days later. It was more of a loan, really.

I had to laugh at that joke, despite it's irreverence. I don't seem to have been blasted by a lightening bolt. This is a recurring theme, so let me take a different angle: the 3 days Jesus was dead, He wasn't given to the world. he was given to satan, death, and the grave. He could NOT be left as worm food, because He had not sinned. (You know, the whole law of sin and death thing, right?) This is what is known as GENIUS! Creative genius, and incredibly economical too. Unfathomable agony for an extended time, endured by a Person who had gone to great lengths to be able to do so, but ALL sin throughout ALL time could then be dismissed w/o requiring anymore death, for people.

No, I understand it. Why he wasn't so forgiving to start with, I don't know, but I understand.

See above.

did God give Adam and Eve a chance to repent?

We've been doing it ever since.

No, I'm judging Him on my own idea of what is good and what is bad, because I have no other system upon which to judge it.

Ahhh, honesty - I love it!! It's that Truth stuff The Episcopal Church does this too, and refuses to admit it. See here's the difference: it is the Word that Judges US, not the other way around.

 

[razeontherock]

If you don't mind elaborating upon it I was wondering what you find deeper than the 'Golden Rule' and/or what you find to be the conerstone?

The stone the builders rejected, the only One that ever actually followed the golden rule - that Jesus, born in Nazareth, is the Christ, and made Lord of Lords.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Just an aside:

The Golden Rule existed long before it was attributed to Jesus. It's not even specifically Abrahamaic, but a principle called "reciprocity" that other social species grasp as well.

The concept was present in certain forms in the philosophies of ancient Babylon, Egypt, India, Greece, Judea, and China.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

The source of these ideas is something I've always been interested in. How would you compare the timelines (I know there is dispute on this) of Abraham and Moses to Zoroaster? What about his differant concepts, a matter of the culture of a region?

Zoroaster/Zarathustra lived LONG before Abraham, provided that the latter is more than a semi-mythological founding father to begin with.
As for different concepts: just as a similar terrain can produce distinct cultures, it can also produce different religions and philosophies. People aren't slaves to external factors -they are merely influenced by them.

Christianity owes the dualist concept of an Evil One/Satan to the Zoroastrians, by the way, along with the concept of a dual afterlife and a narrow path leading people away from a fiery underworld of punishment.


(BTW, I've heard it said Scribes of Issiah disputed his teachings by a certian few texts there, any light on this?) [/QUOTE]
I've never heard of that.

 

[SithDoughnut]

Thanks guys, I've come to some interesting conclusions on things I've never considered before. I need to make that thread on sin and the like at some point (and I probably will do after a bit of study), but I've run out of questions for the moment and I think Jeshu might rupture something if he keeps thinking I'm trying to destroy God.

 

[razeontherock]

Here's the thing about evidence for G-d: it can't be put in terms of scientific evidence, and not being from the colonies you may not be familiar, but why would people write "mine eyes have seen the Glory of the coming of the Lord?"

Past tense. Present reality. Knowable.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

I've seen utter conviction, unwavering faith, dead-set confidence - but not only in Christians. Such a state of mind exists even in people who believe in absurdities, or belong to dangerous cults.

You can see it in Scientologists, in UFO-cultists, in Islamic suicide bombers, in people belonging to extreme political ideologies:

In general, I do not consider such conviction to be a good thing. It blinds the mind, obliterates the possibility for growth, and savagely tears down any thought that might lead in a different direction.

 

[razeontherock]

And this is the difference between G-d and satan: "blinds the mind, obliterates the possibility for growth, and savagely tears down any thought that might lead in a different direction" = the latter.

"the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to [them that are] bound; Isaiah 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified."

That - is G-d. Quite different from the picture you painted. It's not that hard to tell the 2 apart. People get upset with me when I do that. So what?

 

[Zstar]

Zoroaster/Zarathustra lived LONG before Abraham, provided that the latter is more than a semi-mythological founding father to begin with.
As for different concepts: just as a similar terrain can produce distinct cultures, it can also produce different religions and philosophies. People aren't slaves to external factors -they are merely influenced by them.

Christianity owes the dualist concept of an Evil One/Satan to the Zoroastrians, by the way, along with the concept of a dual afterlife and a narrow path leading people away from a fiery underworld of punishment.


(BTW, I've heard it said Scribes of Issiah disputed his teachings by a certian few texts there, any light on this?)

I've never heard of that.[/QUOTE]

I don't think Christianity completely owes the Zoroastrians, most of the sacred texts we have today are fairly recent, minus the ones engraved in stone - I wonder what is some of the oldest ones?

The book of Job is said to be ancient. The Gathas of Zoroaster is much older than the other Avesta texts -it's in an earlier form of thier alphabet.

 

[razeontherock]

The book of Job is said to be ancient.

That's the book of the Bible that was written first. Job was a contemporary of Abraham, who escaped death by being sent away from home to go to school under Noah and his son Seth. (They brought the book of Enoch with them, as well as Adam's clothing made by G-d, so the story goes ...

 

[semper_virens]

God by definition hasn't made any mistakes.

God doesn't need our forgiveness, he doesn't need to explain himself to us and he doesn't owe us anything. The idea that he does comes from projecting our cultural paradigms on the universe as if they were objective realities, and treating him like some Joe blow on the street. God created the universe for himself, the only real rights belong to him to do as he pleases.

 

[razeontherock]

oi antz, are you a universalist? If not, how do you see things working out perfectly for everyone?

And as for God not knowing that Satan would step out of line: in light of his supposed omniscience and general competence, I find that highly unlikely.

Such rich fodder for discussion here, but this is her last post? Did she get herself banned again? Last time I didn't see how that was possible, but I was proven wrong ..

 

[Jeshu]

The Truth of The Matter.

Friends how could The Truth not be The Boss over our life,
Wouldn't The Truth know best how things have been within?
So please no more bloody demands from The Truth about this,
its time to be truthful about our not so nice and truthful times!

For why would The Truth always suffer death at our hands?
That piercing penalty to sustain our untruthful life true to be?
Why would His Good Life suffer our bad life for any length of time?
Surely it is not a scientifically sound idea for us to proceed like this?

Daily our own untrue unloving ways demand The Truth to provide,
the very reason we compete and work to personally gain Good life.
Could our untrue self escape The Truth of our bad life down here?
Would The Truth then be at fault for our lying wrong murdering us?

Though didn't The Truth turn His Hell into an awesome plan?
Salvation if we freely surrender our bad life truthfully to Him!
Untruthful and not right becoming truthfully okay from now on,
as Jesus is the only Way to survive The Truth of the Matter!