ToBeBlessed said:
You haven't shown me that grace is after righteousness. I don't even understand how you have come to that conclusion. Then you pop over to the blood. Earlier you said that grace was by the blood. Which is it? You give me a Chapter and a half of references. Why don't you show me the scripture and explain it verse by verse in it's entirety. A verse here and a verse over there doesn't always make the best argument. I at least break it down. Can't you break down the scriptures in writing and put your own commentary in there as a thorough explanation for me?
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. *** but by the law of faith**is a statement.
"(So here is the question)" law or works because they asked what we are asking as well lol)
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law
Romans‬ [bless and do not curse]3‬:[bless and do not curse]25-31‬
(" so faith before circumcision and after is the issue , do they ignore the law because they have faith?")
What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture?
Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
(" so Abraham is being used as an example to answer the question:
and he believed God had faith in him then this produced righteousness to grace bit of dept so he owed something")
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works
Romans‬ [bless and do not curse]4‬:[bless and do not curse]1-6‬
KJV
7.Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also?
("They used David clearly saying he received righteousness not through works but it was through being sin free or forgiven of iniquity but again they bring up law to who is it for law abiders circumcised or uncircumcised")
for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision?
("So they are again going over law was he given faith and uncircumcised or after circumcision?")
Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
(" and now they see its for uncircumcised ")
And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also
(" so concluded he revived faith-righteousness the obeyed the law") they put it in order again below)
And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham,
which he had being yet uncircumcised. For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith
For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, ([bless and do not curse]Romans‬ [bless and do not curse]4‬:[bless and do not curse]7-16‬ KJV)
Faith to believe - produces righteousness -gives grace and makes you want to follow the law.
Hope I didn't mess this up lol