Can we all at least agree on this basic statement of faith about the Second Coming?

eclipsenow said:

This is from Theopedia - a site I'm referring to for shorter theology definitions. It seems fairly helpful. I think below is a fairly gospel focussed message of eschatology - without all the details we all disagree on. Can we agree that this is what we agree on - in the most basic language - in the most general sense?
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The Second Coming or Second Advent of Jesus Christ is seen as a yet future event by Christians. Jesus Christ's first coming, about 2,000 years ago, was to deal with sin. Before He ascended to heaven, He said, "if I go away, I will come back"; and His Spirit is given as a "guarantee" of His return and of our salvation in Him,^[1]^ to sustain the Church until His return.^[2]^ His return or Second Coming is sometimes called the Parousia (Greek: coming presence, arrival)^[3]^ and will be for the judgment of his enemies and the salvation of those who await his return.^[4]^ The many denominations of Christianity vary widely regarding the details surrounding Christ's return in relationship to the Great Tribulation and the Millennium. Because of the many false prophecies of man regarding His return, over the past 2,000 years, few dare to claim complete and authoritative interpretation of the many related prophetic biblical passages. However, it is commonly accepted that:

• Jesus Christ died on the cross.
• He was resurrected bodily.
• He ascended into heaven.
• He will return to earth, judge the world and establish his kingdom,
• No one knows the day or hour of Christ's return.

Daniel, the Gospel of Matthew and the Revelation are considered to be the most fruitful sources of study, although many parts of the Bible are sprinkled with references to the "last day(s)" and the "second coming" of Christ. A specific reference to it is contained in the early ecumenical creeds.

Multimedia

• The Basis of the Second Coming (MP3), by Arnold Fruchtenbaum

Testimony of the early creeds

The second coming (or return) of Christ is contained as an article of faith in all the ancient creeds:

• "He ascended into heaven. From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead" Apostles' Creed.
• "He shall come again with glory to judge both the living and the dead" Nicene Creed.
• "From thence he shall come to judge the living and the dead, at whose coming all men must rise with their bodies and are to render an account of their deeds" Athanasian Creed.

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As a Catholic, we use the Nicene creed, and I agree with all of these points.

eclipsenow said:

This is from Theopedia - a site I'm referring to for shorter theology definitions. It seems fairly helpful. I think below is a fairly gospel focussed message of eschatology - without all the details we all disagree on. Can we agree that this is what we agree on - in the most basic language - in the most general sense?
---

The Second Coming or Second Advent of Jesus Christ is seen as a yet future event by Christians. Jesus Christ's first coming, about 2,000 years ago, was to deal with sin. Before He ascended to heaven, He said, "if I go away, I will come back"; and His Spirit is given as a "guarantee" of His return and of our salvation in Him,^[1]^ to sustain the Church until His return.^[2]^ His return or Second Coming is sometimes called the Parousia (Greek: coming presence, arrival)^[3]^ and will be for the judgment of his enemies and the salvation of those who await his return.^[4]^ The many denominations of Christianity vary widely regarding the details surrounding Christ's return in relationship to the Great Tribulation and the Millennium. Because of the many false prophecies of man regarding His return, over the past 2,000 years, few dare to claim complete and authoritative interpretation of the many related prophetic biblical passages. However, it is commonly accepted that:

• Jesus Christ died on the cross.
• He was resurrected bodily.
• He ascended into heaven.
• He will return to earth, judge the world and establish his kingdom,
• No one knows the day or hour of Christ's return.

Daniel, the Gospel of Matthew and the Revelation are considered to be the most fruitful sources of study, although many parts of the Bible are sprinkled with references to the "last day(s)" and the "second coming" of Christ. A specific reference to it is contained in the early ecumenical creeds.

Multimedia

• The Basis of the Second Coming (MP3), by Arnold Fruchtenbaum

Testimony of the early creeds

The second coming (or return) of Christ is contained as an article of faith in all the ancient creeds:

• "He ascended into heaven. From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead" Apostles' Creed.
• "He shall come again with glory to judge both the living and the dead" Nicene Creed.
• "From thence he shall come to judge the living and the dead, at whose coming all men must rise with their bodies and are to render an account of their deeds" Athanasian Creed.

Click to expand...

Like everything we produce there may be some flaws or differences even in the creeds. But I find them a good basis for determining what is orthodox and what is not. And yes, it is correct regarding the 2nd Coming.

I have my own way of expressing it, by pinpointing the train of thought, since Bible often builds upon Bible. Daniel is the main source of the doctrine of the 2nd Coming with respect to its details.

It is always assumed that Salvation will come one day to the world from the time of the Fall itself, but details of the 2nd Coming originate in Daniel 7. Most everything in the NT in regard to Christ's Coming looks back upon Dan 7 as their authoritative source. How important Daniel was!

Daniel presented a clear context for the 2nd Coming and determined the nature of our expectation. One, Christ is the Son of Man who will *come from heaven.* All preliminary forms of God's Kingdom are "pre-Kingdom" and transient, or perhaps even false.

Two, Daniel indicated the context of Christ's Coming would be the destruction of the "Little Horn," aka the Antichrist. And the purpose of his Coming would be to establish God's Kingdom on earth in a world that is currently politically allied against Him in various parts of the world.

Yes, there are many disagreements about the Millennium and the Tribulation. The Millennial arguments originated in the Early Church and tended to separate a physical Israel form a spiritual Church, indicating that the "physical" was metaphorical and symbolic of the spiritual.

The argument over the Tribulation, interestingly, are over the same subject matter, but reassert a literal, future Millennium. It reasserts the hope of Israel's national salvation, while still admitting a distinction exists between Israel as God's People and the Church as God's People.

eclipsenow said:

This is from Theopedia - a site I'm referring to for shorter theology definitions. It seems fairly helpful. I think below is a fairly gospel focussed message of eschatology - without all the details we all disagree on. Can we agree that this is what we agree on - in the most basic language - in the most general sense?
---

The Second Coming or Second Advent of Jesus Christ is seen as a yet future event by Christians. Jesus Christ's first coming, about 2,000 years ago, was to deal with sin. Before He ascended to heaven, He said, "if I go away, I will come back"; and His Spirit is given as a "guarantee" of His return and of our salvation in Him,^[1]^ to sustain the Church until His return.^[2]^ His return or Second Coming is sometimes called the Parousia (Greek: coming presence, arrival)^[3]^ and will be for the judgment of his enemies and the salvation of those who await his return.^[4]^ The many denominations of Christianity vary widely regarding the details surrounding Christ's return in relationship to the Great Tribulation and the Millennium. Because of the many false prophecies of man regarding His return, over the past 2,000 years, few dare to claim complete and authoritative interpretation of the many related prophetic biblical passages. However, it is commonly accepted that:

• Jesus Christ died on the cross.
• He was resurrected bodily.
• He ascended into heaven.
• He will return to earth, judge the world and establish his kingdom,
• No one knows the day or hour of Christ's return.

Daniel, the Gospel of Matthew and the Revelation are considered to be the most fruitful sources of study, although many parts of the Bible are sprinkled with references to the "last day(s)" and the "second coming" of Christ. A specific reference to it is contained in the early ecumenical creeds.

Multimedia

• The Basis of the Second Coming (MP3), by Arnold Fruchtenbaum

Testimony of the early creeds

The second coming (or return) of Christ is contained as an article of faith in all the ancient creeds:

• "He ascended into heaven. From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead" Apostles' Creed.
• "He shall come again with glory to judge both the living and the dead" Nicene Creed.
• "From thence he shall come to judge the living and the dead, at whose coming all men must rise with their bodies and are to render an account of their deeds" Athanasian Creed.

Click to expand...

Here's the problem with following the doctrines and traditions of men through the creeds, is that you end up with a doctrine that allows contradicting the Bible to be orthodox while on the other hand don't you dare contradict the creeds or you'll be labeled a heretic. For instance, how many eschatology's are there? Each a contradiction to the other. So, at most only 1 creedal eschatology can be true. Even if that 1 is true, the rest contradict the Bible. Therefore, contradicting the Bible is orthodox, while contradicting the creeds is heretical.

Let's take a closer look at what the creeds said: "He will come again to judge the living and the dead."
In the following verse, almost all English translations except the literal translations(which say "He is about to come", translate the the following as if it were the future tense of "come" ie "will come". However, will is a present indicative followed by the present infinitive. So when people see "will come", as we English speakers do, we assume it to be a future tense. But that's not quite what it means. Whereas it is in the future from when written, it really conveys the sense of the imminent future, not an unknowable distant future.

Acts 17:31 Acts 17:31 Greek Text Analysis


From Chat gpt on Acts 17:31 I asked this question:
Could it then be interpreted in Acts 17:31 that the judgement is in the imminent future when written with the judging ongoing from there?

Yes, in Acts 17:31, the use of the present indicative μέλλει (is about to) combined with the present infinitive κρίνειν (to judge) can indeed be interpreted to imply that the judgment is imminent, and the judging will be ongoing from that point forward. Here’s the verse again for reference:

> διότι ἔστησεν ἡμέραν ἐν ᾗ μέλλει κρίνειν τὴν οἰκουμένην ἐν δικαιοσύνῃ ἐν ἀνδρὶ ᾧ ὥρισεν, πίστιν παρασχὼν πᾶσιν ἀναστήσας αὐτὸν ἐκ νεκρῶν.

> "because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead." (ESV)

### Key Points in Interpretation

1. **Imminence of Judgment**:
- The verb μέλλει (is about to) suggests an impending action, indicating that the judgment is not far off but expected soon. This provides a sense of urgency and certainty about the event.
- This aspect of the verb can convey that the judgment is imminent when the statement is made.

2. **Ongoing Nature of Judgment**:
- The present infinitive κρίνειν (to judge) conveys a continuous aspect. When the judgment begins, it will be an ongoing process.
- This ongoing aspect implies that the act of judging will continue from the point it starts, emphasizing the enduring nature of the judgment.

### Combining Both Aspects

- **Imminent Future**: The present indicative μέλλει combined with the present infinitive κρίνειν points to an action that is about to commence soon after the statement.
- **Continuous Action**: Once this action (judging) begins, it will continue as an ongoing process.

### Translation and Interpretation

- **Translation**: "Because he has fixed a day on which he is about to judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed."
- **Interpretation**: This construction indicates that God has set a specific future day for judgment, which is approaching imminently. When this day arrives, the act of judging will be a continuous, ongoing process carried out in righteousness.

### Contextual Consideration

In the context of Acts 17, Paul is speaking to the Athenians about the certainty of a coming judgment. The use of the present indicative μέλλει and the present infinitive κρίνειν reinforces the urgency and assuredness of this event, emphasizing that it is both near and significant, and once it begins, it will be comprehensive and ongoing.

### Summary

In Acts 17:31, the present indicative μέλλει followed by the present infinitive κρίνειν can be interpreted to suggest that the judgment is imminent and will be ongoing from the point it begins. This interpretation fits well with the overall message of urgency and certainty that Paul is conveying about the coming judgment.

Ed Parenteau said:

In the context of Acts 17, Paul is speaking to the Athenians about the certainty of a coming judgment. The use of the present indicative μέλλει and the present infinitive κρίνειν reinforces the urgency and assuredness of this event, emphasizing that it is both near and significant, and once it begins, it will be comprehensive and ongoing.

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But the final Judgment and all the things leading up to it, remain unfulfilled.

At the glorious Return, Jesus only separates the nations. Matthew 25:31-33 They are seen in Zechariah 14:16-21
The Judgment of every person who has ever lived, will happen after His thousand year reign on earth. When the Book of Life is opened. Rev 20:11-15, Matthew 25:46

Any doctrine or creed that says Jesus will Judge individuals at His Return, or that anyone receives immortality then, are wrong and contradict scripture.

keras said:

But the final Judgment and all the things leading up to it, remain unfulfilled.

At the glorious Return, Jesus only separates the nations. Matthew 25:31-33 They are seen in Zechariah 14:16-21
The Judgment of every person who has ever lived, will happen after His thousand year reign on earth. When the Book of Life is opened. Rev 20:11-15, Matthew 25:46

Any doctrine or creed that says Jesus will Judge individuals at His Return, or that anyone receives immortality then, are wrong and contradict scripture.

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The context tells us a different story.
Matthew 25:34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

As to Zechariah 14. Again we need the context. First of all, there is no more tribe of Judah to go to fight at Jerusalem and secondly, when was the last time a military used all those animals in their camps?
13On that day a great panic from the LORD will come upon them, so that each will seize the hand of another, and the hand of one will rise against the other. 14Judah will also fight at Jerusalem, and the wealth of all the surrounding nations will be collected—gold, silver, and apparel in great abundance. 15And a similar plague will strike the horses and mules, camels and donkeys, and all the animals in those camps.

Ed Parenteau said:

The context tells us a different story.
Matthew 25:34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

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Like many Prophesies, Matthew 25 tells a story, a sequence of events and starts with verse 31; at the glorious Return, then ends 1000 years later, at the GWT Judgment; in verse 46.
Proved by Revelation 20:11-15, where the final washup of Creation takes place, after Jesus has reigned for His reward of a thousand years, Zechariah 14:16-21

As for Zech 14:13-15, those dead livestock may be only allegorical for modern transport, or they are actual, as after the Sixth Seal disaster, we lose most modern means of transport and communications, etc.

keras said:

Like many Prophesies, Matthew 25 tells a story, a sequence of events and starts with verse 31; at the glorious Return, then ends 1000 years later, at the GWT Judgment; in verse 46.
Proved by Revelation 20:11-15, where the final washup of Creation takes place, after Jesus has reigned for His reward of a thousand years, Zechariah 14:16-21

As for Zech 14:13-15, those dead livestock may be only allegorical for modern transport, or they are actual, as after the Sixth Seal disaster, we lose most modern means of transport and communications, etc.

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No matter what you have to add to the scripture to make it fit, there is no more earthly tribe of Judah. There's nothing that says Christ will reign on the earth and there is no literal 1000 year reign "with Christ" as "a thousand years 'with the Lord is like a day or a watch in the night".
Besides, John has a vision in the Spirit of 2 separated 1000 year periods which coincide with the 2 ages of Ephesians 1:18-22 below. The first. He "reigned"(past tense) with those "who came to life". The second: He "will reign"(future tense) with the "rest of the dead who came back to life" Which is the eternal reign.

This goes back to what Jesus said in John.
Those who came to life.
John 5:
24Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life.
25Truly, truly, I tell you, the hour is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

Those who came back to life.
28Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice 29and come out—those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Luke 1:31
Behold, you will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to give Him the name Jesus. 32He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David, 33and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever. His kingdom will never end!”

Psalm 45:6
Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever, and justice is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Psalm 93:2
Your throne was established long ago; You are from all eternity.
Psalm 102:12
But You, O LORD, sit enthroned forever; Your renown endures to all generations.

Isaiah 9:
6For unto us a child is born,
unto us a son is given,
and the government will be upon His shoulders.
And He will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7Of the increase of His government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on the throne of David
and over his kingdom,
to establish and sustain it
with justice and righteousness
from that time and forevermore.


Here's how long the church age lasts.
Ephesians 3:20Now to Him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to His power that is at work within us, 21to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen.

Here's the purpose of the gospel and how long it lasts.
Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God to salvation to every one that believes; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
1 Peter 1:25
but the word of the Lord stands forever." And this is the word that was proclaimed to you.
Revelation 14:6
Then I saw another angel flying overhead, with the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on the earth--to every nation and tribe and tongue and people.


Here's where He reigns from which in both ages:
Ephesians 1:18 I ask that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you may know the hope of His calling, the riches of His glorious inheritance in the saints, 19and the surpassing greatness of His power to us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of His mighty strength, 20which He exerted in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly realms, 21far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in the present age but also in the one to come.
22And God put everything under His feet and made Him head over everything for the church, 23which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

He was already reigning from the right hand of God. "Must" is an emphatic present tense verb in the following verses.
1 Corinthians 15:
23But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him.
24Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. 25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For “God has put everything under His feet.” Now when it says that everything has been put under Him, this clearly does not include the One who put everything under Him. 28And when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will be made subject to Him who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all.
Acts 3:21
Heaven must take Him in until the time comes for the restoration of all things, which God announced long ago through His holy prophets.

I just can't find anything anywhere in scripture that claims Jesus returns in the flesh and reigns on a physical throne in earthly Jerusalem based on the following verse.
John 16: 13When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.

A. `For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus……For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, and the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.` (1 Thess. 4: 14 – 17)

We see that the Lord comes to the clouds, bringing those believers who had died. All the believers rise together to meet the Lord in the air.



B.`When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him...` (Matt. 25: 31)


`when Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God,..` (2 Thess. 1: 7)

`Then the Lord will go forth and fight against those nations, as He fights in the day of battle. And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two…` (Zech. 14: 3 & 4)

We see here that when the Lord comes to earth, to the Mount of Olives He comes with His Holy Angels to bring vengeance upon those of the nations who do not know God.


Big difference between the two: one to the clouds for the believers, and the other one to the earth for the rebellious nations.

Ed Parenteau said:

I just can't find anything anywhere in scripture that claims Jesus returns in the flesh and reigns on a physical throne in earthly Jerusalem

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Psalms 2:6, Isaiah 2:2-3, Revelation 29:6b....and they shall reign with Christ for the thousand years.

keras said:

Psalms 2:6, Isaiah 2:2-3, Revelation 29:6b....and they shall reign with Christ for the thousand years.

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Galatians 4:26But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.
Hebrews 12: 22But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Why is the New Jerusalem called the bride of Christ and is the shape of the most holy place and the size of the Roman Empire?

Who reigned with Christ for a thousand years Revelation 20:4 and who will reign with Christ for a thousand years Revelation 20:6 and where do you place these (2) thousand year periods seeing as you take them literally?

Ed Parenteau said:

Who reigned with Christ for a thousand years Revelation 20:4 and who will reign with Christ for a thousand years Revelation 20:6 and where do you place these (2) thousand year periods seeing as you take them literally?

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They are the same thousand years. The final 'Day', in God's timing, of His 7000 year plan for mankind.
Revelation 20:4 clearly explains; who they are, also all the faithful people still alive when Jesus Returns.

AMill believers are making a big mistake to reject the specific thousand years, reiterated 6 times in Rev 20 and referred to as Gods reward to Jesus, the fulfilment of how Jesus will come as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
The many Prophesies which the Jews thought would be fulfilled in the first Century.

keras said:

They are the same thousand years. The final 'Day', in God's timing, of His 7000 year plan for mankind.
Revelation 20:4 clearly explains; who they are, also all the faithful people still alive when Jesus Returns.

AMill believers are making a big mistake to reject the specific thousand years, reiterated 6 times in Rev 20 and referred to as Gods reward to Jesus, the fulfilment of how Jesus will come as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
The many Prophesies which the Jews thought would be fulfilled in the first Century.

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No they're not the same. One group "came to life" and reigned (past tense) John 24-25 and the other group "came back to life" and "will reign" future tense John 28-29.
The Bible already specifically stated twice that "with the Lord a thousand years is like a day" and repeating it 6 times in a vision doesn't make it literal. Where's that rule found in scripture? It's just a manmade tradition.

Ed Parenteau said:

The Bible already specifically stated twice that "with the Lord a thousand years is like a day" and repeating it 6 times in a vision doesn't make it literal. Where's that rule found in scripture? It's just a manmade tradition.

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Your confusion and mixing up of the Prophesies, is apparent.
Time in heaven is not the same as time on earth.
The fact is that a specific number repeated six times in scripture, is very significant and to just dismiss it, as AMills do, is their serious error.

The point with the GT martyrs, whose souls Jesus will bring back with Him, is that they are not yet made immortal. That will happen at the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium.

keras said:

Your confusion and mixing up of the Prophesies, is apparent.
Time in heaven is not the same as time on earth.
The fact is that a specific number repeated six times in scripture, is very significant and to just dismiss it, as AMills do, is their serious error.

The point with the GT martyrs, whose souls Jesus will bring back with Him, is that they are not yet made immortal. That will happen at the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium.

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That's my point-He is reigning from heaven and never returns in the flesh to reign on the earth once He ascended into heaven where He reigns forever.
Jesus said that when He left, the world would never see Him again, but that He would reveal Himself to the believer. Has Christ not revealed Himself to you?
John 14:
18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19In a little while the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you also will live. 20On that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you are in Me, and I am in you. 21Whoever has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me. The one who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and reveal Myself to him.”

22Judas (not Iscariot) asked Him, “Lord, why are You going to reveal Yourself to us and not to the world?”

23Jesus replied, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24Whoever does not love Me does not keep My words. The word that you hear is not My own, but it is from the Father who sent Me.