Can we agree on this?

gluadys · Jul 13, 2012

ptomwebster said:
We will never be able to comprehend all that is God.

So you are changing the definition of "breathe" from its literal meaning (to take air into the lungs and expel it again).

I agree with you. We will never be able to comprehend all that is God.
Isn't that why God condescends to us, speaking to us in figures of speech that we can understand (like "breathe")?

Calminian · Jul 13, 2012

Philis said:
So you don't know? That's a fair honest answer. You don't actually know if the word "breathe" means that he literally breathes.

Philis, even in english, the term "breathed" and "breathes" are different tenses. The fact that God breathed out air at a particular time to accomplish a particular thing, does not mean God breathes continuously all the time in order to sustain His own life. Nor does it imply He has lungs. Indeed He doesn't need them to move air. I think you would agree.

I'm just curious though, what your thoughts are on this. Perhaps I could give better input if I understood better where you were coming.

Calminian · Jul 13, 2012

Philis said:
Why is that a concern?

Because then we take the author's intended meanings out of the Bible and replace them with our own. But that may not be your intention. I'm just curious what your thoughts and concerns are on this.

Calminian · Jul 13, 2012

gluadys said:
So you are changing the definition of "breathe" from its literal meaning (to take air into the lungs and expel it again).

No, that does't quite max out the meanings of the word, even in english.

verb
▸to take air into your lungs through your nose or mouth and let it out again more...
▸to bring other substances into your mouth or lungs as you breathe more...
▸to blow air from your mouth onto something more...
▸to say something very quietly more...
▸clothes that can breathe are made from cloth with very small holes that allow air in more...
▸if you let wine breathe, you open it a short time before you drink it so that the flavor improves more...

There are other definitions that apply also. To blow softly is another one I just saw.

But again, what is the alternative meaning that you could apply to this verse?

Papias · Jul 13, 2012

Tom wrote:

you do need to separate the sixth day from the eighth day. That discussion will go way beyond the op and over most members of this forum's head.

Click to expand...

Yeah, no need to get into that.

Originally Posted by Papias

Tom asked:

Are you made in His image (צלם , tselem ) and likeness ( דּמוּת , demûth) ?

Click to expand...

First - Tom, welcome to our forum! I hope you enjoy your time here.

To answer - yes, I am. Now, please answer my question:

Which of these people are made in His image and likeness?

A) David Bowie
B) Condolezza Rice
C) A child born with no arms or legs
D) You
E) A child born with no vocal chords
F) Billy Graham

Papias

Click to expand...

If you read the text correctly, all of them,

I agree. So that says that by "God's Image", he must not have meant sex, since Condi and Billy are different sexes and races. Thus it seems that God does not have physical testicles, or if He does, then it is not something we can tell from Gen 1:27 (which you quoted). Similarly, C and E show that other physical features, like vocal cords or limbs are not implied by Gen 1:27. This shows that 1:27 cannot be used to imply that God has physical lungs, or physically breathes.

Looking over the list A-F, is not the common feature the fact that they each have a soul, a mind? So from that, God "breathing into Adam the breath of life" seems to be giving him a soul - since when God made all the other animals, this was not needed.

Papias

Philis · Jul 13, 2012

Calminian said:
Philis, even in english, the term "breathed" and "breathes" are different tenses. The fact that God breathed out air at a particular time to accomplish a particular thing, does not mean God breathes continuously all the time in order to sustain His own life. Nor does it imply He has lungs. Indeed He doesn't need them to move air. I think you would agree.

So He had to breathe that one time. Where did this breath come out of?

Calminian said:
My only concern is people drawing the conclusion that if God doesn't physically breath the way we do that we can then spiritualize the entire passage.

Click to expand...

Why is that a concern?

Click to expand...

Because then we take the author's intended meanings out of the Bible and replace them with our own.

What if the intended meaning is spiritual, shouldn't we then be concerned that anyone trying to take it as literal history is taking the author's intended meaning out of the Bible and replacing it with their own?

But that may not be your intention. I'm just curious what your thoughts and concerns are on this.

My view on this is what I said in the OP. If there's something more specific you would like to know please ask.

Calminian · Jul 13, 2012

Philis said:
So He had to breathe that one time. Where did this breath come out of?

Out of God.

Philis said:
What if the intended meaning is spiritual, shouldn't we then be concerned that anyone trying to take it as literal history is taking the author's intended meaning out of the Bible and replacing it with their own?

But if the meaning is intended to be spiritual, there are indicators that it is spiritual within the text, and the actual meaning will be obvious. The same is true if everyday language.

Philis said:
My view on this is what I said in the OP. If there's something more specific you would like to know please ask.

I didn't actually see you state what you thought was being conveyed in the text. You merely said God used the word breathed to accommodate us, but didn't say what you actually thought God was conveying through the non-literal terms He used. If you don't know, then this is a good clue that it was not meant as a spiritual metaphor. If it was, the actual meaning would be apparent.

Philis · Jul 13, 2012

Calminian said:
But if the meaning is intended to be spiritual, there are indicators that it is spiritual within the text, and the actual meaning will be obvious. The same is true if everyday language.

Isn't the actual meaning pretty obvious? God made everything and He gave us life. That seems to be the meaning no matter how it's interpreted.

I didn't actually see you state what you thought was being conveyed in the text. You merely said God used the word breathed to accommodate us, but didn't say what you actually thought God was conveying through the non-literal terms He used. If you don't know, then this is a good clue that it was not meant as a spiritual metaphor. If it was, the actual meaning would be apparent.

God used the word to accomodate to us something that we can't understand. How could I explain that?

mark kennedy · Jul 13, 2012

Philis said:
Isn't the actual meaning pretty obvious? God made everything and He gave us life. That seems to be the meaning no matter how it's interpreted.

God used the word to accomodate to us something that we can't understand. How could I explain that?

How would you say the word relates to this expression?:

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, (II Tim 3:16)

gluadys · Jul 13, 2012

Calminian said:
No, that does't quite max out the meanings of the word, even in english.

The literal meaning is almost never the full range of meaning of a word. It is the basic, most common-sense meaning with other meanings being derivatives of it.

verb
▸to take air into your lungs through your nose or mouth and let it out again more...
▸to bring other substances into your mouth or lungs as you breathe more...
▸to blow air from your mouth onto something more...
▸to say something very quietly more...
▸clothes that can breathe are made from cloth with very small holes that allow air in more...
▸if you let wine breathe, you open it a short time before you drink it so that the flavor improves more...

Of these, the first and possibly the third are the most basic (and therefore literal) meanings. The others are extensions and derivatives from that meaning.

So, if the point is that the verb is to be understood literally, those meanings are not relevant. It is pretty clear that the second and the last three points are not what the writer is referring to.

But again, what is the alternative meaning that you could apply to this verse?

An alternative meaning would not be a literal meaning.

All we are establishing here is a) what the literal meaning is, and b) that the literal meaning is not applicable to an incorporeal being such as God.

Therefore, the term is a figure of speech used to accommodate the incomprehensible to human understanding.

The technical term for this type of figure of speech is anthropomorphism i.e. to speak of God in terms applicable to a human being. It covers all references to God breathing, speaking, seeing, listening, using his eyes, ears, hands, arms, etc.

Does that mean that God is not aware of us because God lacks physical sense organs and does not communicate with us because he lacks the physical organs for producing sound?

Of course not.

Calminian · Jul 13, 2012

Philis said:
Isn't the actual meaning pretty obvious? God made everything and He gave us life. That seems to be the meaning no matter how it's interpreted.

God used the word to accomodate to us something that we can't understand. How could I explain that?

See this just doesn't fit the use of figurative language in the Bible nor in any other language. You say God used the word breathed to accommodate us, but you don't actually know the purpose of using that word. Had God merely wanted to convey he made us and gave us life, He could have easily said just that. Instead He said he breathed the breath of life into Adam. Metaphorical and figurative language are used to communicate deeper more descriptive meanings. If the breathing descriptions isn't literal, then what does it mean?

For instance, we can say it's raining out side. We can say it's raining hard. Or we can say it's raining cats and dogs. It's immediately obvious that raining cats and dogs is figurative way to say it's raining extremely hard to the point where it's very loud like cats being chased by dogs or like 20 or 30 pound animals landing on the roof.

When Christ used metaphors describing himself they had very apparent meaning. When He says he is the vine and we the branches, it's a picture of how ridiculous it would be to try to do anything apart from him. For everyone knows branches wither when separated from the main plant.

Metaphors are a valuable tool in every language. The Bible is full of them. But the keys is, they are obvious. I don't think the use of the word breathed as a metaphor does anything for the passage if God merely wanted to communicate that He gave Adam life. And a straightforward reading fits with the context.

But if you really feel it was a metaphor, explain what specific emphasis it indicates. But if it's just a metaphor for life it's redundant. It doesn't add any apparent emphasis.

That's my take anyway.

gluadys · Jul 13, 2012

mark kennedy said:
How would you say the word relates to this expression?:

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, (II Tim 3:16)

It is very parallel isn't it?

God "breathed" (whatever that means in reference to an incorporeal being) life/soul into his human creation and again "breathed" a living word into the soul of the biblical authors.

Calminian · Jul 13, 2012

gluadys said:
It is very parallel isn't it?

God "breathed" (whatever that means in reference to an incorporeal being) life/soul into his human creation and again "breathed" a living word into the soul of the biblical authors.

There's a problem here too, though, with using these as parallels. Scripture does not say God breathed scripture into the writers and they in turn breath it out or wrote it down. It merely says all scripture is God breathed. The writers were merely compelled to breath or speak on God's behalf. In fact the word prophet means mouthpiece. It's not that God did an act of breathing thoughts into them, and they they in turn breathed it out. Rather, it was God who used them and compelled them to speak or breath out His words.

So again, I don't see anything metaphorical here, in which figurative languages is used to emphasize anything. The meaning is very straightforward. God caused Adam to breath by pushing air into his nostrils. God moved men to speak truth about Him.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not against metaphors. Scripture is full of them. I just don't see metaphor in any of these particular passages.

ptomwebster · Jul 13, 2012

Philis said:
So you don't know? That's a fair honest answer. You don't actually know if the word "breathe" means that he literally breathes.

Look up the words I posted in Hebrew than in Paleo Hebrew. Literally "breathes" is one of a number of meanings for the words.

I would expect the God that created the world could do anything He wanted, don't you?

Assyrian · Jul 13, 2012

The conversation reminds me a bit of Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God forimages resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. It isn't just images of Offler the crocodile god that have God wrong. Images of humans have missed out on what God is like too. God made man in his image but you can't reverse engineer the human image to get back to God's image, because being made in the image of God wasn't about our physical appearance

ptomwebster · Jul 13, 2012

Assyrian said:
The conversation reminds me a bit of Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God forimages resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. It isn't just images of Offler the crocodile god that have God wrong. Images of humans have missed out on what God is like too. God made man in his image but you can't reverse engineer the human image to get back to God's image, because being made in the image of God wasn't about our physical appearance

It might be good for you to stop, read the text and try to understand the words that are being used.

Keachian · Jul 13, 2012

ptomwebster said:
It might be good for you to stop, read the text and try to understand the words that are being used.

I'm pretty sure it's talking against this sort of thing:

Assyrian · Jul 13, 2012

ptomwebster said:
It might be good for you to stop, read the text and try to understand the words that are being used.

You think I missed something?

ptomwebster · Jul 13, 2012

Philis said:
So you don't know? That's a fair honest answer. You don't actually know if the word "breathe" means that he literally breathes.

If you would look the words I listed in Hebrew you will notice that one of several meanings of the words is literal breath. You will also want to look for the meanings in Paleo Hebrew (that's ancient Hebrew). There is a lot more in these verses than you've been taught.

You think whatever you want. I don't have time to teach you.

Greg1234 · Jul 13, 2012

Philis said:
What if the intended meaning is spiritual,

A more spiritual interpretation still affects matter and moves us further away from Darwinian theories on the origin of religion.

Can we agree on this?

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