Linguistically, can truth exist without falsehood, in your opinion? And if it can't, what does that tell us (if anything) about gods who use language?
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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Can truth exist without falsehood?
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JuJube
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Since you read the bible, at one time only truth exisited. It was only until satan approached Eve, sowed doubt about what God had said, and then told her a bald face lie, "Surely you will not die". Thus, falsehood was born by the father of lies. IMO
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No. Truth would not be "true" if there were no falsehoods. It could still exist logically but we would neither call it true or false...
It would just be an absolute.
As to your second question: Dunno. Humans use language and language is an outgrowth of our natural ability to reason but it is a purely human construct... Perhaps we could say that it was through language that we create order from chaos and we do that through abstract revelation from God...
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JohnLocke
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1. Truth can exist without falsehood. e.g. the presence of absence of 3-ness has nothing to do with the 2-ness of the 2 I just wrote.
2. On the other hand, there is a fine tradition that asserts that no ultimate truth may be expressed in language, or to put it more accurately, any utterance must necessarily fail to capture the whole truth of anything it attempts to express. Whether this failure constitutes falsehood, is somewhat debatable. It does, however, provide a great argument for why it is that perfect gods do not speak.
Personally, I do subscribe to the belief that no truth can be fully expressed by any utterance, and therefore any utterance is to at least some degree false (herein defined as something other than entirely and whole true).
Cheers
2. On the other hand, there is a fine tradition that asserts that no ultimate truth may be expressed in language, or to put it more accurately, any utterance must necessarily fail to capture the whole truth of anything it attempts to express. Whether this failure constitutes falsehood, is somewhat debatable. It does, however, provide a great argument for why it is that perfect gods do not speak.
Personally, I do subscribe to the belief that no truth can be fully expressed by any utterance, and therefore any utterance is to at least some degree false (herein defined as something other than entirely and whole true).
Cheers
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I don't understand the question. Is the question whether such a world can exist that all propositions are true, and none are false? Because no.
I have no idea what it means to say that only truth existed. JuJube is using the word "truth" in a completely nonsensical way.
I have no idea what it means to say that only truth existed. JuJube is using the word "truth" in a completely nonsensical way.
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Yes and love can exist without hate, but for love to exist the possibility of hate must exist and also for truth, the possibility of falsehood.
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R
rebelEnigma
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Truth is defined by the one with the power to institute and define truth. Christ (God) calls Himself the Way, the Truth, and the Life. God Himself is truth so whatever He says is true. Scripture says that it is impossible for God to lie (here's the verse):
"God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged." -Hebrews 6:18
Falsehood is merely the absence of truth, just as darkness is the absence of light. Chaos is the absence of what? Order. Truth can exist without falsehood, but falsehood cannot exist without truth. This is because you use truth to determine falsehood; if there were no truth then there could not be falsehood since the concept exists only in the absence of truth. Much like light: if light never existed, then there could not be any darkness since the concept of darkness is such that it only Is when light Isn't. And if there were no light to speak of, how would one determine what was dark? Likewise, if there were no truth to speak of, then how could one see falsehood?
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JohnLocke
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Yes, it is my position that the statements purported to be made by God are not entirely the truth, the whole truth, and admitting of nothing other than the truth. This is not to say God is a liar. Lying has a men rea requirement, a state of mind, that is the intent to deceive. Further, I would argue that it must be a malicious intent. For example, when one tries the latest dish from one's friend and it truly tastes horrible, when you say, "It's really not my favorite" are you lying? Are you telling the truth? Or is it something else entirely?
RecoveringPhilosopher:
I don't understand how you can propose that there could not be a universe in which all propositions about said universe were true and none false. If I compose a universe of exactly 1 number 2, and then propose that the contents of the universe is 2, and make no other propositions, then all the propositions concerning that universe are true and none false. Or is there imbedded in your statement an assumption that human beings exist, have that ability to make propositions, even clearly erroneous ones?
Rebel
I'm not sure Chaos is the absence of Order. For example, the absence of anything, is nothing, but still it seems to possess neither chaos nor order. I think you set up a false relationship between the two, is it not often said that a sufficiently complex order is indistinguishable from chaos? Further, the determinist believe that chaos necessarily cannot exist, because there is a direct and orderly chaos for every instance.
Further, your verse merely states that "by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie" refers back to the two unchangeable things. So it leaves open the possibility that God could lie by other things.
Your final point doesn't make sense to me, "if there were no truth to speak of, then how could one see falsehood?" 2+2=4, this is true. Must I necessarily propose the falsehood 2+2=22 for it to be true? Surely not. Do I need to make the erroneous proposition before I can state the truthful one?
I think of truth as an aspect of things, relationships etc. as with falsehood. I need not have ever seen blue to know red, for when I first see blue, I know it is not red and can distinguish that which is red from that which is not red, but all that is not red is not blue. How to define "truthiness" is way too long a discussion.
Cheers
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Things do not need their opposite in order to exist.
Just because we wouldn't call it true doesn't mean it isn't true. It just means that we'd call it something differnet. I can call a dog a rooster all I want, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a dog.
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That's why I said it would still exist but we would neither call it true or false...
WFTV was asking "linguistically" and the word true implies the existence of a falsehood is some ways...
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That's a funny example. 2 is an abstract concept and cannot exist in a universe. Also, your concept of a proposition is funny. After you've said it, is it still true? Do you have to have said it for it to be true? Are other propositions false only if you say them? These questions are very strange, and they are all implied by your very strange example.
What I had in mind was a universe in which every conceivable proposition was true. This would of course be a completely contradictory universe, and therefore impossible.
Most importantly, the word truth is getting thrown around in an inappropriate and undefinable way. Can someone define truth for me, such that it can exist?
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This is senseless. Do you mean when all propositions are necessarily true? Please see what I said to JohnLocke.
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Electric Skeptic
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Of course; it must. Truth is defined by correspondence to reality; there will always be some statements that do not correspond to reality and are hence false.
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Dear Waiting for the Verdict, more often than not, truth is in the eye of the beholder, and since there are so many opinions, statements, and even beliefs, what is Truth?? Jesus told us that He is the Way and the Truth, and believe Him. Thousands of Christian men and = women believe this too. Jesus gave us 2 Commandments, Love God first, and love each other, as you love yourselves. Follow His Word, His way, and His Truth, and you CANNOT go wrong. I say this with love and humility, Waiting for the Verdict, and send greetings. Emmy, sister in Christ.
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