Can there be morality without God?

[Ana the Ist]

Well first off I didn't mention God so you have jumped the gun a bit and assumed that. That shows more of a reaction than a response. Lets say there was no God. So we know that humans are fallible and we have a track record for thinking something is good and then finding out its not and having to live with the consequences. That has cost us in many ways throughout time with wars, our health including deaths and probably economically as well. So if we knew of a source that was infallible or at least pretty good at getting things right wouldn't it make sense to then allow that source to be the judge of what is right and wrong.

Now if we knew that this was the case from some evidence would we still put our lives into that sources hand even it we knew that we had a much better chance of living a better life with better consequences. I would say that is questionable because we still have this element of rebellion in us. We dont like being told what to do and when to do it. So it seems there is more to it than just what is the best for us. But gods aside it seems to make sense that if we cant make the right choices and dont really know how to judge things properly then we would be better off putting our lives in the hands of someone or something that did.

I disagree. As with most religions there are clear morals that are fairly similar. The Christian religion is very specific for what is right and what is wrong. It begins with the 10 commandments and is fulfilled in Christ. We can see the example of Christ in His life and teachings. There is no ambiguity in that. If anything it is subjective views which can confuse things even when it comes to religion.

You are taking what salvation and redemption truly means. You are leaving out the every essence of it. Its not something that is a get out of jail free card like you are alluding. That is a very one sided view. For one it would be rare fro someone like that to get to that point of true repentance. God deals with a persons heart not some charade they may put on. You cant fool God and thats the point. He knows peoples true intentions where mankind doesn't and will never be a good judge at what is the right thing to do when it comes to punishment and forgiveness.

But if a person was truly sorrowful and repented for what they have done why cant they be forgiven. The idea is not all about punishment with wrong doing. Its really about the person changing and becoming a good person isn't it. We know from the stats with the way our justice system works that we have failed miserably when it comes to truly changing people and stopping the bad behavior. The death penalty doesn't work, our jails are just getting overcrowded and the stats for re offending are great. Its rare for offender to rehabilitate. Our system is based on revenge and consequence not love and forgiveness. The facts are Jesus has saved many and change people from the inside out, me being one of them.

I think the current system is too sad to be funny. If you think that what we are doing now is a solution then we have no hope. If you think we will get it right in the future then you are kidding yourself. We just dont know how to really judge and punish. The system is full of double standards, dirty deals, corruption, band aid solutions, good intentions, lack of money and to many do gooders that dont know what they are doing.

The thing is when we decide that we know better as humans thats when we get it wrong. We tell ourselves that we are good enough and come up with all the latest and greatest ideas and new ways to do things. But in the end it doesn't work and we end up with just as many problems if not more to deal with. But then we do it all again but tell ourselves it will be different next time. In the end its the lunatic and inmates running the asylum and the system.

There are lots of things wrong with what you said here...but I'm just going to talk about a few of them...

" So we know that humans are fallible and we have a track record for thinking something is good and then finding out its..."

People make moral choices that we agree and disagree with. In general, I'd say the overwhelming majority of choices any person makes on any given day we would find morally acceptable. So, right of the bat you're mischaracterizing mankind.

"So if we knew of a source that was infallible or at least pretty good at getting things right wouldn't it make sense to then allow that source to be the judge of what is right and wrong."

I can actually agree with this...if such an entity existed, it would be a good idea to seek it's knowledge of good and bad...at least for the very difficult moral choices we have to make. The problem lies in communication. Even those (like yourself) who believe with all sincerity that they can ask god what to do in a given situation and believe god will answer them...there is disagreement. If two people face the exact same moral choices, and they both ask god what to do, they frequently get different answers. There's only a few possible reasons for this. The least likely explanation would be that one of the two people isn't communicating with god. A slightly more likely explanation would be that neither of them are communicating with god. A more likely explanation would be that neither of them are communicating with god... because there isn't a god to communicate with.

"Now if we knew that this was the case from some evidence would we still put our lives into that sources hand even it we knew that we had a much better chance of living a better life with better consequences"

Assuming that such an entity existed, and we could communicate with it, I don't think we'd follow it's advice...or even seek it...if we felt we had more wisdom on the right choice to make. This is evidenced by a lot of behavior...but I'll only go into a longer explanation if you really want it.

"...it seems to make sense that if we cant make the right choices and dont really know how to judge things properly then we would be better off putting our lives in the hands of someone or something that did. "

This goes back to the first sentence of yours that I quoted. What makes you think that man cannot make the right choices? What makes you think we don't judge things properly? People like yourself focus far too much on the bad choices people make and ignore the many many good choices they make that, IMO, far outweigh the bad ones. I'd argue this is a characteristic of christianity itself and its seemingly constant focus on sin and evil in the world. If christianity told it's followers that people were generally good, made good choices, and the world was a pretty great place...it would shrink rather quickly. IMO it's a shame that something that so many people believe in has such a negative opinion of the world and people in general. I don't think anyone can fully grasp the negative impact that mindset has on the world.

"But if a person was truly sorrowful and repented for what they have done why cant they be forgiven"

I see no reason that a person cannot be forgiven. The problem is that system of morality cannot be considered just, fair, or even necessarily reasonable. Such a system puts faith above good behavior. If I had to choose between the two (you know, if I were a god and I wanted people to know which one i thought was more important) I'd rather people think that good behavior was more important than faith. It's rather clear that god is more concerned with spreading faith and gaining sheep than asking the sheep to behave.

"If you think that what we are doing now is a solution then we have no hope"

Solution to what?

"The thing is when we decide that we know better as humans thats when we get it wrong. "

I think it's a much bigger problem when people think they know what their god wants other people to do...and then they try to force those people to do (or not do) those things. It's the cause of much anger, sadness, fighting, and misery in the world.

 

[stevevw]

There are lots of things wrong with what you said here...but I'm just going to talk about a few of them...

" So we know that humans are fallible and we have a track record for thinking something is good and then finding out its..."

People make moral choices that we agree and disagree with. In general, I'd say the overwhelming majority of choices any person makes on any given day we would find morally acceptable. So, right of the bat you're mischaracterizing mankind.

But you cant say that according to subjective morality because another person will disagree that humans have basically got it right. You maybe assessing this from what your society or country thinks is right. But another society like Russia or China may say you are wrong and look at us we are also successful according to what we believe.

I happen to think overall we havnt really got things right as a world. We are heading for a possible global destruction or at least some great disasters which will wipe out many. Millions of species are dying in which we are mainly responsible. There are millions who die from not having enough food yet we thrown tons and tons away. This century has been the bloodiest and the next isn't looking any better. Mental illness and suicide is on the increase and many dont put much hope or faith in the world we have created.

I think many are in denial and want to think we are OK. But we are not and the more we tell ourselves that everything is rosy the more we will be heading down a path of ultimate destruction. But the world view is you have to tell yourself that everything is good because you have been so busy stating how great we are without God. So secular societies have to present a great picture. Otherwise they then have to stop and realize that maybe they aren't so good at running things and we are not the gods we think we are of this world.
"So if we knew of a source that was infallible or at least pretty good at getting things right wouldn't it make sense to then allow that source to be the judge of what is right and wrong."

I can actually agree with this...if such an entity existed, it would be a good idea to seek it's knowledge of good and bad...at least for the very difficult moral choices we have to make. The problem lies in communication. Even those (like yourself) who believe with all sincerity that they can ask god what to do in a given situation and believe god will answer them...there is disagreement. If two people face the exact same moral choices, and they both ask god what to do, they frequently get different answers. There's only a few possible reasons for this. The least likely explanation would be that one of the two people isn't communicating with god. A slightly more likely explanation would be that neither of them are communicating with god. A more likely explanation would be that neither of them are communicating with god... because there isn't a god to communicate with.

Religion is subject to subjective and delusional thinking as much as anything. As humans we have a tendency to turn to different ideas that may give us an answer to life and bring us happiness and fulfillment. We can seek this in money and material things, lifestyle plans, love, relationships, mind altering chemicals, health kicks or many other new ideas about a better life. Thats the thing we have an inbuilt need for finding God as His knowledge is in all of us. We just substitute this for all these other things which dont quite hit the mark.

Religion can be one of the biggest ways people can be deluded as it has all the hallmarks of being something that should be good. A lot of the problem is people mask their bad intentions with something good and fool themselves and others. But this can happen with anything as well especially love and money. But if we look at Jesus we can see a who God is and how He wants us to live. There is no ambiguity and Jesus had no sin so He is infallible. This is one belief that we can put up there as a worthy way to live a good moral life. It clearly will show what we must do to follow God. The great thing is its not a set of dos and donts but a transformation into a new person able and willing to live as Jesus did.
"Now if we knew that this was the case from some evidence would we still put our lives into that sources hand even it we knew that we had a much better chance of living a better life with better consequences"

Assuming that such an entity existed, and we could communicate with it, I don't think we'd follow it's advice...or even seek it...if we felt we had more wisdom on the right choice to make. This is evidenced by a lot of behavior...but I'll only go into a longer explanation if you really want it.

I agree, this can be seen by the 100s of laws, legislation's, regulations, by laws ect that society has to make to keep people in line. Whenever society allows people to self regulate it normally ends up getting out of control and heading down the wrong side of things. See in all the talk about how humans have evolutionary need to live together and get along. What it doesn't take into consideration is we also have this side that is capable of great evil and depravity towards others. That seems to be a part of us just as much as any good. So despite thinking we will do the right thing and everything will be OK. More than likely we will stuff things up and end up wrecking everything. Left unchecked the tendency for evil will overshadow any good.
"...it seems to make sense that if we cant make the right choices and dont really know how to judge things properly then we would be better off putting our lives in the hands of someone or something that did. "

This goes back to the first sentence of yours that I quoted. What makes you think that man cannot make the right choices? What makes you think we don't judge things properly? People like yourself focus far too much on the bad choices people make and ignore the many many good choices they make that, IMO, far outweigh the bad ones. I'd argue this is a characteristic of Christianity itself and its seemingly constant focus on sin and evil in the world. If Christianity told it's followers that people were generally good, made good choices, and the world was a pretty great place...it would shrink rather quickly. IMO it's a shame that something that so many people believe in has such a negative opinion of the world and people in general. I don't think anyone can fully grasp the negative impact that mindset has on the world.

I just look at things and how they are. I dont think anyone is being negative. Its just the way it is. In fact its the non Christians who have the negative view of things. Data shows that the world is becoming more pessimistic. Depression is growing and the suicide rate is climbing. Many more people have this bleak outlook on life and the future.

We just have to look at our track record to see what humans are like. We have always told ourselves it will be better next time and we will learn from our mistakes. But it seems we are not capable of knowing what is best in the overall picture. We think we do but there always seems to be a bad consequence. What we did 30 years ago has an affect on the future. That affect, affects what we do and that has an affect on the future as well. What we are doing now is going to have some really bad affects on our future and bring a whole new bunch of problems. We pat ourselves on the back when we have achieved something good which is fair enough. But then we end up doing 2 or 3 bad things at the same time to counter this.

I think basically secular society has this inherent aspect that always will not consider the things we know we should do. Rather is may consider them but we still dont do it for many reasons. Much of that is because we are basically selfish and in denial. So what we are doing with the planet we know is not going to auger well for the future. We tell ourselves it will be OK because we have time. We dont really want to give up our lifestyles to sacrifice anything to change.

Its like the elephant in the room and its to big to harness and change course. This is the same for the arms race, economics and material wealth. So get rich others die of starvation. We know we could share everything and save many if we gave up what we have and accepted less of a lifestyle. But everything in secular society is geared at self and materialism. We dont get on with each other and so long as I'm alright thats OK. So there is a clash of cultures and lifestyles and people know this. They see the unfairness and this creates divisions.
"But if a person was truly sorrowful and repented for what they have done why cant they be forgiven"

I see no reason that a person cannot be forgiven. The problem is that system of morality cannot be considered just, fair, or even necessarily reasonable. Such a system puts faith above good behavior. If I had to choose between the two (you know, if I were a god and I wanted people to know which one i thought was more important) I'd rather people think that good behavior was more important than faith. It's rather clear that god is more concerned with spreading faith and gaining sheep than asking the sheep to behave.

The problem is the ability to be good on our own merit. Like I said we have this good side but we also have this evil side. The evil side seems to be the one that can bring us down more than the good prop us up. Thats because the good we think is good is the worlds version of good based on our own power and humans just havnt got the power and ability to do the right thing or really know what is the right thing to do. Because the world view allows many different views to exist this undermines any real authority for a solid foundation of building right and wrong.

Anyone can challenge anothers version of what they think is moral. Or morality can be corrupted because its open to interpretation and whoever can get into a position to influence what is acceptable. The world denies the truth of God and substitutes it for a compromised truth of mankind. When we deny Gods truth we open ourselves to all sorts of things coming in and deceiving us. We can turn a truth into a lie and make a lie look good like the truth.
"If you think that what we are doing now is a solution then we have no hope"

Solution to what?

The solution to how this world should live.
"The thing is when we decide that we know better as humans thats when we get it wrong. "

I think it's a much bigger problem when people think they know what their god wants other people to do...and then they try to force those people to do (or not do) those things. It's the cause of much anger, sadness, fighting, and misery in the world.

That is a problem as well. But I dont think that is to do with God. That is a human thing along the same lines as politics and other forms of power. The secular world has caused way more death and destruction with the way it has conducted itself than religion has done. Secular organizations, countries and societies have deceived people much more than religion has and caused a great deal of suffering. Even so called good organizations have done much damage. The economic and social welfare policies or lack of them with world governments have done just as much damages. Organizations like NATO, United Nations, the world Bank and many other secular organizations have done a lot of damage. Global commercialism has done great damage. Money has done great damage.

 

[MehGuy]

Nah, the only people with power are the very most, top-most elite. No one else. It doesn'tmake sense to imply that the ever-aging Christian middle class had power. They were being stripped of it before they were even born -- the feminist movements, the pro-divorce movements, the pro-abortion movements, the nature of public education, etc. were all orchestrated by the most elite people.

In fact the Christian majority that had participated in any capacity in the above were the useful idiots that helped disarm themselves.

But then they all got sucked into some big business Republican talk and ultimately they became useless.

But this doesn't even really matter because the moral climate of a place was bound to sink into the sands.

We're talking about a theologically ignorant people wit tons of money. What more could go morally wrong?

It has resulted in the destruction of the planet, the murders of tens of thousands of Third Worlders with no real elevation of their positions, mass substance abuse and addiction to cheap entertainment... Really, now, how could it not be a decadent civilization slipping into irrelevance?

So what you're saying is that it's more the fault of the lukewarm Christians for the downfall of America than the atheists?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Nah, the only people with power are the very most, top-most elite. No one else.

I respectfully disagree.

I do understand why it can look that way, even the top-most elite can forget sometimes...

The greatest power resides in the masses. It always has. Perhaps one day technology will advance to a point where we can definitively say that a few people hold power over the masses....but we haven't reached that day yet.

 

[Inkfingers]

I respectfully disagree.

I do understand why it can look that way, even the top-most elite can forget sometimes...

The greatest power resides in the masses. It always has. Perhaps one day technology will advance to a point where we can definitively say that a few people hold power over the masses....but we haven't reached that day yet.

Half a dozen cowboys can take a thousand cattle to slaughter.

Tell, me, who really has the power there in practice?

 

[Ana the Ist]

" So we know that humans are fallible and we have a track record for thinking something is good and then finding out its..."
But you cant say that according to subjective morality because another person will disagree that humans have basically got it right. You maybe assessing this from what your society or country thinks is right. But another society like Russia or China may say you are wrong and look at us we are also successful according to what we believe.

I happen to think overall we havnt really got things right as a world. We are heading for a possible global destruction or at least some great disasters which will wipe out many. Millions of species are dying in which we are mainly responsible. There are millions who die from not having enough food yet we thrown tons and tons away. This century has been the bloodiest and the next isn't looking any better. Mental illness and suicide is on the increase and many dont put much hope or faith in the world we have created.

I think many are in denial and want to think we are OK. But we are not and the more we tell ourselves that everything is rosy the more we will be heading down a path of ultimate destruction. But the world view is you have to tell yourself that everything is good because you have been so busy stating how great we are without God. So secular societies have to present a great picture. Otherwise they then have to stop and realize that maybe they aren't so good at running things and we are not the gods we think we are of this world.
"So if we knew of a source that was infallible or at least pretty good at getting things right wouldn't it make sense to then allow that source to be the judge of what is right and wrong."
Religion is subject to subjective and delusional thinking as much as anything. As humans we have a tendency to turn to different ideas that may give us an answer to life and bring us happiness and fulfillment. We can seek this in money and material things, lifestyle plans, love, relationships, mind altering chemicals, health kicks or many other new ideas about a better life. Thats the thing we have an inbuilt need for finding God as His knowledge is in all of us. We just substitute this for all these other things which dont quite hit the mark.

Religion can be one of the biggest ways people can be deluded as it has all the hallmarks of being something that should be good. A lot of the problem is people mask their bad intentions with something good and fool themselves and others. But this can happen with anything as well especially love and money. But if we look at Jesus we can see a who God is and how He wants us to live. There is no ambiguity and Jesus had no sin so He is infallible. This is one belief that we can put up there as a worthy way to live a good moral life. It clearly will show what we must do to follow God. The great thing is its not a set of dos and donts but a transformation into a new person able and willing to live as Jesus did.
"Now if we knew that this was the case from some evidence would we still put our lives into that sources hand even it we knew that we had a much better chance of living a better life with better consequences"
I agree, this can be seen by the 100s of laws, legislation's, regulations, by laws ect that society has to make to keep people in line. Whenever society allows people to self regulate it normally ends up getting out of control and heading down the wrong side of things. See in all the talk about how humans have evolutionary need to live together and get along. What it doesn't take into consideration is we also have this side that is capable of great evil and depravity towards others. That seems to be a part of us just as much as any good. So despite thinking we will do the right thing and everything will be OK. More than likely we will stuff things up and end up wrecking everything. Left unchecked the tendency for evil will overshadow any good.
"...it seems to make sense that if we cant make the right choices and dont really know how to judge things properly then we would be better off putting our lives in the hands of someone or something that did. "
I just look at things and how they are. I dont think anyone is being negative. Its just the way it is. In fact its the non Christians who have the negative view of things. Data shows that the world is becoming more pessimistic. Depression is growing and the suicide rate is climbing. Many more people have this bleak outlook on life and the future.

We just have to look at our track record to see what humans are like. We have always told ourselves it will be better next time and we will learn from our mistakes. But it seems we are not capable of knowing what is best in the overall picture. We think we do but there always seems to be a bad consequence. What we did 30 years ago has an affect on the future. That affect, affects what we do and that has an affect on the future as well. What we are doing now is going to have some really bad affects on our future and bring a whole new bunch of problems. We pat ourselves on the back when we have achieved something good which is fair enough. But then we end up doing 2 or 3 bad things at the same time to counter this.

I think basically secular society has this inherent aspect that always will not consider the things we know we should do. Rather is may consider them but we still dont do it for many reasons. Much of that is because we are basically selfish and in denial. So what we are doing with the planet we know is not going to auger well for the future. We tell ourselves it will be OK because we have time. We dont really want to give up our lifestyles to sacrifice anything to change.

Its like the elephant in the room and its to big to harness and change course. This is the same for the arms race, economics and material wealth. So get rich others die of starvation. We know we could share everything and save many if we gave up what we have and accepted less of a lifestyle. But everything in secular society is geared at self and materialism. We dont get on with each other and so long as I'm alright thats OK. So there is a clash of cultures and lifestyles and people know this. They see the unfairness and this creates divisions.
"But if a person was truly sorrowful and repented for what they have done why cant they be forgiven"
The problem is the ability to be good on our own merit. Like I said we have this good side but we also have this evil side. The evil side seems to be the one that can bring us down more than the good prop us up. Thats because the good we think is good is the worlds version of good based on our own power and humans just havnt got the power and ability to do the right thing or really know what is the right thing to do. Because the world view allows many different views to exist this undermines any real authority for a solid foundation of building right and wrong.

Anyone can challenge anothers version of what they think is moral. Or morality can be corrupted because its open to interpretation and whoever can get into a position to influence what is acceptable. The world denies the truth of God and substitutes it for a compromised truth of mankind. When we deny Gods truth we open ourselves to all sorts of things coming in and deceiving us. We can turn a truth into a lie and make a lie look good like the truth.
"If you think that what we are doing now is a solution then we have no hope"
The solution to how this world should live.
"The thing is when we decide that we know better as humans thats when we get it wrong. "
That is a problem as well. But I dont think that is to do with God. That is a human thing along the same lines as politics and other forms of power. The secular world has caused way more death and destruction with the way it has conducted itself than religion has done. Secular organizations, countries and societies have deceived people much more than religion has and caused a great deal of suffering. Even so called good organizations have done much damage. The economic and social welfare policies or lack of them with world governments have done just as much damages. Organizations like NATO, United Nations, the world Bank and many other secular organizations have done a lot of damage. Global commercialism has done great damage. Money has done great damage.

Once again, there's a lot wrong with what you've said here...but as I'm not interested in breaking it down line for line, I'll just pick several of the things you've gotten wrong. Since most of this post is just a rewording of your previous post... I'll ignore anything that isn't new.

"But you cant say that according to subjective morality"

You don't understand subjective morality. You still think that it requires me to value all moral opinions equally. I'm not likely to value anyone's moral opinions to the extent I do my own. This is what you do...this is what everyone does (for most moral choices anyway).

"I happen to think overall we havnt really got things right as a world."

This is that negative christian-based outlook I mentioned earlier. We aren't talking about the trajectory of mankind...we're talking about morality. Think of all the choices you made yesterday....were most of them morally good or bad? I can speak confidently for myself that they were almost entirely good. I think we could say the same for the vast majority of people in the world...regardless of their religious beliefs. Yet you think mankind is some sort of evil thing that can't make its own moral choices... can't make its own moral judgements. Where did you get that belief from? It's not hard to figure out. Long ago someone decided that you're better off doing what he thought was right....but how could he convince you of that? I'll tell you...first he had to convince you that mankind is evil...then he had to convince you that he knew what god thinks is good. Pretty much the same things you're trying to convince people of now lol.

"Religion is subject to subjective and delusional thinking as much as anything."

You got that right...religious people too. You decided not to address my point though. Let's say there is a moral choice before me. One person tells me that he knows god wants me to do one thing. Another person tells me he knows god wants me to do something else. How does one tell which person god is really speaking to? It's a question no one has ever been able to answer.... and for good reason. I'll let you figure out what the reason is yourself.

"The evil side seems to be the one that can bring us down more than the good prop us up. Thats because the good we think is good is the worlds version of good based on our own power and humans just havnt got the power and ability to do the right thing or really know what is the right thing to do."

Also...

"The problem is the ability to be good on our own merit. Like I said we have this good side but we also have this evil side. The evil side seems to be the one that can bring us down more than the good prop us up."

There's that negative view of mankind and our behavior again...it's a bit sad what it's done to your outlook on people. But it gets worse...

"Because the world view allows many different views to exist this undermines any real authority for a solid foundation of building right and wrong. "

So basically, you're right and anyone else that doesn't share your christian values is wrong. You think it's a bad thing for mankind that everyone has differing views on different things. Pretty much every religion pushes this view, so I won't claim it's exclusivity to christianity. It's sad though...I can only imagine how much religion has held mankind back. Could you even dream of how far we might have come if we actually considered everyone's views before deciding the correct path to take? Mankind would be wondrous.

"But if we look at Jesus we can see a who God is and how He wants us to live. "

Then why do so many who believe in Jesus disagree on how god wants us to live? How does one tell the delusional from the non-delusion? They offer the same proof (which is to say, none).

"The solution to how this world should live. "

The answer to this seems to me is ever-changing. This is one of the failures of religion and consequently, one of the reasons they fade away.

" The secular world has caused way more death and destruction with the way it has conducted itself than religion has done. "

More people today live happy and prosperous lives than any other time in history. If you want to blame secularism for all the world's ills...then I insist you give it credit for all the good.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Half a dozen cowboys can take a thousand cattle to slaughter.

Tell, me, who really has the power there in practice?

We're talking about people...not beef.

Even your faulty analogy demonstrates the point though. What happens to the cowboys if they lose all their cattle? What if all the cattle get sick and die? What if some other cowboys steal their cattle?

The cowboys' power is derived from the cattle...just as the elites' power is derived from the masses.

A cowboy can die in a stampede...but a cowboy could never run over the herd.

 

[Inkfingers]

We're talking about people...not beef.

We are talking about a tiny few can control a great many. The cattle are each potentially able to easy kill the cowboys, but they don't - because the cowboys have the power there.

Saying that the masses have the power is like saying the cattle do. They don't. They have the potential for having some power, yes, but that's all they have.

Also, seeing the state of humanity today, they are largely an animalistic mass who could do little more than stampede anyway....so the analogy works twice over.

 

[Ana the Ist]

We are talking about a tiny few can control a great many. The cattle are each potentially able to easy kill the cowboys, but they don't - because the cowboys have the power there.

Saying that the masses have the power is like saying the cattle do. They don't. They have the potential for having some power, yes, but that's all they have.

Also, seeing the state of humanity today, they are largely an animalistic mass who could do little more than stampede anyway....so the analogy works twice over.

It was a poor analogy, but I tried to make it work so you could understand. What power do the few elites have (and I'm speaking about people here) that the masses cannot take?

 

[brinny]

Without God people are left to decide what is wrong or right. That sounds great to many people because they know what is wrong and right. Oddly, people seldom agree on this. Furthermore, when people gain power over others their view of right and wrong tends to change to right being whatever protects their power or grants them more power. Historical cases of this are:

Ukraine Famine | United Human Rights Council

and

Chronology of Mass Killings during the Chinese Cultural Revolution (1966-1976) - Online Encyclopedia of Mass Violence

Religious death tolls happen, but they tend to be relatively small and with good reason, ie crusades to kick out foreign invaders from Europe or the inquisition to root out subversive elements of society ie Kabbalists who were accused of sacrificing Christian children.

Morality would, bottom line, be a matter of "opinion", wouldn't it?

Thank you kindly.

 

[stevevw]

Once again, there's a lot wrong with what you've said here...but as I'm not interested in breaking it down line for line, I'll just pick several of the things you've gotten wrong. Since most of this post is just a rewording of your previous post... I'll ignore anything that isn't new.

"But you cant say that according to subjective morality"

You don't understand subjective morality. You still think that it requires me to value all moral opinions equally. I'm not likely to value anyone's moral opinions to the extent I do my own. This is what you do...this is what everyone does (for most moral choices anyway).

OK I'm not just talking about you but society and the system as a whole. Yes you will value your opinion and the each other individual will value theirs equally. But as a system all of those opinions are equal and have a chance of being applied. This opens things up for all sorts of things. There are many things that are not illegal that are bad for us. There are things that maybe bad for us that are being allowed in society. Thats because you have to in that system of doing things. There is no clear overall moral guide and I'm not just talking about illegalities.

So therefor it is more vital that we have some clear and good guidelines for what is acceptable or not. We have more responsibility to set a good example and promote the right things. But that is hard with a plural subjective view. Someone cant say to another I think that you promoting your porn or particular lifestyle is wrong even if the stats may show that it leads to poor choices and consequences. Because we have set ourselves up for having to allow the extremes of both ends of the spectrum and everything in between. So no one can start to say we should ban this or that morally even though we are doing this in 100s of other ways with all the little rules and regulations societies have. So we need to be careful and choose wisely what we promote and teach society if we want to have those rights and freedoms.

"I happen to think overall we havnt really got things right as a world."

It depends on your subjective view according to that way of thinking. Some may consider a few thousand people being sacrificed through starvation or war is not a bad thing so that it culls the population and doesn't put pressure of the rest of our resources. Many think greed is good or being able to gather lots of wealth at the expense of the poor is acceptable. that happens a lot in a commercial system. If you break it down and look at what is actually happening, what the system is doing you will see a lot of wrong from top to bottom. But of course many dont really stop and see that because they are so caught up in it.

This is that negative christian-based outlook I mentioned earlier. We aren't talking about the trajectory of mankind...we're talking about morality. Think of all the choices you made yesterday....were most of them morally good or bad? I can speak confidently for myself that they were almost entirely good. I think we could say the same for the vast majority of people in the world...regardless of their religious beliefs. Yet you think mankind is some sort of evil thing that can't make its own moral choices... can't make its own moral judgements. Where did you get that belief from? It's not hard to figure out. Long ago someone decided that you're better off doing what he thought was right....but how could he convince you of that? I'll tell you...first he had to convince you that mankind is evil...then he had to convince you that he knew what god thinks is good. Pretty much the same things you're trying to convince people of now lol.

You have just said it yourself that overall we havnt got things right. Like I said it is not the Christian view that is negative. I only see things for what they are. You have put a lot of words/thoughts into my mouth which I havnt said. I have said that humans have the capacity to do good but what many forget is we also have the ability to do evil. That is a fact and something that is recognized without religion. You may call it something else but its still bad. Like I said its secular society that mostly thinks like this and speaks about the bad things happening. That is spelt out in the mentality of how they end up which is the high raters of anxiety, depressive thinking and suicide. Its the media that we are subjected to that is pumping out negative news stories every minute of the day. Thats the type of media we seem to want and watch.

The trajectory of societies and this world has a lot to do with it as that is what is causing the high rates of depression ect. What we do is where we end up. Where we end up is what affects our lives. We are doing things right now and have been doing things in the recent past that will cause many to become even more sick, mentally ill, and have bad consequences. The oversupply of medication such as psycho drugs, anti biotics ect are causing great problems for the future. Super bugs are forming because we have band aided health approaches with quick fix solutions. Mental problems are being created because of the over medication of psyche drugs which are actually sending people mad rather than fixing them.

I am not saying that you or others dont do any moral good. You may be more of a Christian in your actions than someone who claims they are. Afterall Jesus said some who claim to be saved Jesus will not know them. Jesus made some claims and one of them was that He was the Son of God. Another was He came to die for us to save us from sin and death. So I guess its a matter of faith. But there is no bad in what He did and claimed.
Why are people so unhappy?
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/why-are-people-so-unhappy-2014-08-19
Modern life 'causes major stress'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6545811.stm
"Religion is subject to subjective and delusional thinking as much as anything."

You got that right...religious people too. You decided not to address my point though. Let's say there is a moral choice before me. One person tells me that he knows god wants me to do one thing. Another person tells me he knows god wants me to do something else. How does one tell which person god is really speaking to? It's a question no one has ever been able to answer.... and for good reason. I'll let you figure out what the reason is yourself.

Its a bit the same as anything. One claims that this investment is better and will give you the best return, another says this diet is the best at losing weight. So that shows that its not the religion or the investment or diet. Its the person behind it that is causing all the problems when there is deception. In saying that it also doesn't mean that one of them may be the best at what it claims and tells the truth. Its just that some people will think theirs is the one when its not. That happens when there is no logic or reason used.

Just like telling if an investment is good or a diet is better you have to check it out and use some judgement about what it claims. Does it add up and make sense. With a diet you will use the known health stats that are good for losing weight as there is a lot of false info out there. With morality and God its what is classed as good. The bible even tells us to think about things and use discernment.

Hebrews 5:14 But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.

Jesus was accused of being the devil himself. He said why would the devil be casting out evil spirits. He would be defeating himself so why would he keep going around healing and casting out himself. The bible says you can tell a tree by the fruit it bears. Those that produce thorns are no good but others that produce sweet fruit are good. So you can tell a person by the fruits (good) they do. But deception and hypocrites are also spoken about. Some may appear well dressed and spoken on the outside but are full of deceit on the inside. It is a persons heart that God knows and judges.


Jesus gives a clear message and teaching. There is no two ways about it. Thats why He came so that God would be amoung us and not far away and distant that we couldn't know what He was like. But the real difference is that its not just about following a set of rules and laws to keep so that we pass a test to be saved. Its actually having a relationship with God through Jesus by having Him live in you. You are transformed from the inside out. With the spirit of God in your heart sin cannot abide in you the two cannot live together so you will be wanting to be obedient to God and please Him.

"The evil side seems to be the one that can bring us down more than the good prop us up. Thats because the good we think is good is the worlds version of good based on our own power and humans just havnt got the power and ability to do the right thing or really know what is the right thing to do."

Also...

"The problem is the ability to be good on our own merit. Like I said we have this good side but we also have this evil side. The evil side seems to be the one that can bring us down more than the good prop us up."

There's that negative view of mankind and our behavior again...it's a bit sad what it's done to your outlook on people. But it gets worse...

"Because the world view allows many different views to exist this undermines any real authority for a solid foundation of building right and wrong. "

So basically, you're right and anyone else that doesn't share your christian values is wrong. You think it's a bad thing for mankind that everyone has differing views on different things. Pretty much every religion pushes this view, so I won't claim it's exclusivity to Christianity. It's sad though...I can only imagine how much religion has held mankind back. Could you even dream of how far we might have come if we actually considered everyone's views before deciding the correct path to take? Mankind would be wondrous.

I dont say that everyone has to have the same views on everything. Its important to have the opportunity and right to be able to make the choice and not be force to do something. God allows us to make the choice through free will. I think Christian thought allows people to make the choice and have that right. Its the radical and extreme thought and beliefs that try to make others do things they dont want. But this happens is all things and not just religion. Politics and secular society can make people do things they dont want. In fact though we think we are a free society we actually have 100s of rules, regulations and laws that stop us from doing a lot. We just think we are free. That why you here people saying more and more that we are becoming like big brother and a nanny state.

I talk about what you call negative side as part of a topic where unfortunately the results and stats of what happens from the consequences of poor choices and the way in which we run our societies. Part of that is when we allow free choice and the rights for anyone to have their view promoted we also have a greater responsibility to ensure we promote the best for society. I believe there needs to be strong leadership and clear messages given about what is good and bad or right and wrong. We do it all the time with everything else. We should be able to promote a certain moral view that leads to better outcomes. We can look at stats and results and see what is best. But if we are not careful about what we allow this can have bad consequences. Just because we allow a free society doesn't mean we dont need good and clear examples and leadership.

"But if we look at Jesus we can see a who God is and how He wants us to live. "

Then why do so many who believe in Jesus disagree on how god wants us to live? How does one tell the delusional from the non-delusion? They offer the same proof (which is to say, none).

Because they put themselves in that position and dont allow God to be the one. They go beyond what they should do and start playing God themselves. They pretend they are for God but then justify worldly ambitions and motives to come into it. Unfortunately this happens and thats humans. Its easier to use a good camouflage like God or religion to promote your own personal agendas.

"The solution to how this world should live. "

The answer to this seems to me is ever-changing. This is one of the failures of religion and consequently, one of the reasons they fade away.

No thats the problem, the ever changing ways never get fixed on anything. It is always undermining because in the end it rationalizes there doesnt have to be any clear answer and it will be ok.

" The secular world has caused way more death and destruction with the way it has conducted itself than religion has done. "

More people today live happy and prosperous lives than any other time in history. If you want to blame secularism for all the world's ills...then I insist you give it credit for all the good.

I agree we are much better off with medicines, health, prosperity, material wealth. I think maybe some have benefited and others havnt. But it seems to always come at a cost. We develop great technology and have just about everything we want to make a happy life for many in well off countries. But then many begin to get isolated and not communicate like we use to because of the tech. Many become depressed and commit suicide in societies that have all the things that are suppose to make them happy. There is something still missing with all that.

On the surface we may be achieving and making thats good but is that the answer to what we are really looking for. Thats why I say that this world and Gods kingdom are two different things. The bible tells us to store up our riches in heaven where they cant rot or be stolen away. So what this world thinks is happiness and peace maybe different to what Jesus was talking about.
Nasa-funded study: industrial civilisation headed for 'irreversible collapse'?
http://www.theguardian.com/environm...sation-irreversible-collapse-study-scientists
How our society breeds anxiety, depression and dysfunction
http://www.salon.com/2013/08/26/how_our_society_breeds_anxiety_depression_and_dysfunction_partner/

 

[Ana the Ist]

"But you cant say that according to subjective morality"

OK I'm not just talking about you but society and the system as a whole. Yes you will value your opinion and the each other individual will value theirs equally. But as a system all of those opinions are equal and have a chance of being applied. This opens things up for all sorts of things. There are many things that are not illegal that are bad for us. There are things that maybe bad for us that are being allowed in society.

It depends on your subjective view according to that way of thinking. Some may consider a few thousand people being sacrificed through starvation or war is not a bad thing so that it culls the population and doesn't put pressure of the rest of our resources. Many think greed is good or being able to gather lots of wealth at the expense of the poor is acceptable. that happens a lot in a commercial system. If you break it down and look at what is actually happening, what the system is doing you will see a lot of wrong from top to bottom. But of course many dont really stop and see that because they are so caught up in it.

You have just said it yourself that overall we havnt got things right. Like I said it is not the Christian view that is negative. I only see things for what they are. You have put a lot of words/thoughts into my mouth which I havnt said. I have said that humans have the capacity to do good but what many forget is we also have the ability to do evil. That is a fact and something that is recognized without religion. You may call it something else but its still bad. Like I said its secular society that mostly thinks like this and speaks about the bad things happening. That is spelt out in the mentality of how they end up which is the high raters of anxiety, depressive thinking and suicide. Its the media that we are subjected to that is pumping out negative news stories every minute of the day. Thats the type of media we seem to want and watch.

The trajectory of societies and this world has a lot to do with it as that is what is causing the high rates of depression ect. What we do is where we end up. Where we end up is what affects our lives. We are doing things right now and have been doing things in the recent past that will cause many to become even more sick, mentally ill, and have bad consequences. The oversupply of medication such as psycho drugs, anti biotics ect are causing great problems for the future. Super bugs are forming because we have band aided health approaches with quick fix solutions. Mental problems are being created because of the over medication of psyche drugs which are actually sending people mad rather than fixing them.

I am not saying that you or others dont do any moral good. You may be more of a Christian in your actions than someone who claims they are. Afterall Jesus said some who claim to be saved Jesus will not know them. Jesus made some claims and one of them was that He was the Son of God. Another was He came to die for us to save us from sin and death. So I guess its a matter of faith. But there is no bad in what He did and claimed.
Why are people so unhappy?
Why are people so unhappy? - MarketWatch
Modern life 'causes major stress'
BBC NEWS | Health | Modern life 'causes major stress'
"Religion is subject to subjective and delusional thinking as much as anything."

Its a bit the same as anything. One claims that this investment is better and will give you the best return, another says this diet is the best at losing weight. So that shows that its not the religion or the investment or diet. Its the person behind it that is causing all the problems when there is deception. In saying that it also doesn't mean that one of them may be the best at what it claims and tells the truth. Its just that some people will think theirs is the one when its not. That happens when there is no logic or reason used.

Just like telling if an investment is good or a diet is better you have to check it out and use some judgement about what it claims. Does it add up and make sense. With a diet you will use the known health stats that are good for losing weight as there is a lot of false info out there. With morality and God its what is classed as good. The bible even tells us to think about things and use discernment.

Hebrews 5:14 But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.

Jesus was accused of being the devil himself. He said why would the devil be casting out evil spirits. He would be defeating himself so why would he keep going around healing and casting out himself. The bible says you can tell a tree by the fruit it bears. Those that produce thorns are no good but others that produce sweet fruit are good. So you can tell a person by the fruits (good) they do. But deception and hypocrites are also spoken about. Some may appear well dressed and spoken on the outside but are full of deceit on the inside. It is a persons heart that God knows and judges.


Jesus gives a clear message and teaching. There is no two ways about it. Thats why He came so that God would be amoung us and not far away and distant that we couldn't know what He was like. But the real difference is that its not just about following a set of rules and laws to keep so that we pass a test to be saved. Its actually having a relationship with God through Jesus by having Him live in you. You are transformed from the inside out. With the spirit of God in your heart sin cannot abide in you the two cannot live together so you will be wanting to be obedient to God and please Him.

"The evil side seems to be the one that can bring us down more than the good prop us up. Thats because the good we think is good is the worlds version of good based on our own power and humans just havnt got the power and ability to do the right thing or really know what is the right thing to do."

Also...

"The problem is the ability to be good on our own merit. Like I said we have this good side but we also have this evil side. The evil side seems to be the one that can bring us down more than the good prop us up."

"Because the world view allows many different views to exist this undermines any real authority for a solid foundation of building right and wrong. "

I dont say that everyone has to have the same views on everything. Its important to have the opportunity and right to be able to make the choice and not be force to do something. God allows us to make the choice through free will. I think Christian thought allows people to make the choice and have that right. Its the radical and extreme thought and beliefs that try to make others do things they dont want. But this happens is all things and not just religion. Politics and secular society can make people do things they dont want. In fact though we think we are a free society we actually have 100s of rules, regulations and laws that stop us from doing a lot. We just think we are free. That why you here people saying more and more that we are becoming like big brother and a nanny state.

I talk about what you call negative side as part of a topic where unfortunately the results and stats of what happens from the consequences of poor choices and the way in which we run our societies. Part of that is when we allow free choice and the rights for anyone to have their view promoted we also have a greater responsibility to ensure we promote the best for society. I believe there needs to be strong leadership and clear messages given about what is good and bad or right and wrong. We do it all the time with everything else. We should be able to promote a certain moral view that leads to better outcomes. We can look at stats and results and see what is best. But if we are not careful about what we allow this can have bad consequences. Just because we allow a free society doesn't mean we dont need good and clear examples and leadership.

"But if we look at Jesus we can see a who God is and how He wants us to live. "

Because they put themselves in that position and dont allow God to be the one. They go beyond what they should do and start playing God themselves. They pretend they are for God but then justify worldly ambitions and motives to come into it. Unfortunately this happens and thats humans. Its easier to use a good camouflage like God or religion to promote your own personal agendas.

"The solution to how this world should live. "

No thats the problem, the ever changing ways never get fixed on anything. It is always undermining because in the end it rationalizes there doesnt have to be any clear answer and it will be ok.

" The secular world has caused way more death and destruction with the way it has conducted itself than religion has done. "

I agree we are much better off with medicines, health, prosperity, material wealth. I think maybe some have benefited and others havnt. But it seems to always come at a cost. We develop great technology and have just about everything we want to make a happy life for many in well off countries. But then many begin to get isolated and not communicate like we use to because of the tech. Many become depressed and commit suicide in societies that have all the things that are suppose to make them happy. There is something still missing with all that.

On the surface we may be achieving and making thats good but is that the answer to what we are really looking for. Thats why I say that this world and Gods kingdom are two different things. The bible tells us to store up our riches in heaven where they cant rot or be stolen away. So what this world thinks is happiness and peace maybe different to what Jesus was talking about.
Nasa-funded study: industrial civilisation headed for 'irreversible collapse'?
Nasa-funded study: industrial civilisation headed for 'irreversible collapse'? | Nafeez Ahmed | Environment | The Guardian
How our society breeds anxiety, depression and dysfunction
How our society breeds anxiety, depression and dysfunction - Salon.com

Before I reply, I'd like to point out you quoted yourself, thinking it was my quote, and then agreed with yourself lol. Take a look at this part of your post...

"You have just said it yourself that overall we havnt got things right."

You said this in response to something you thought I wrote in post 106...but it's actually your quote from post 102 that I responded to in 106. Lol basically, you quoted yourself... then agreed with it, remarking how it was exactly what you were saying. A simple mistake, but seriously, maybe it's time to consider shortening your posts a bit if you can't remember what you said just one page ago. Anyway...you said this...

"OK I'm not just talking about you but society and the system as a whole."

As I said in my last post, you just don't seem to get subjective morality. It's not like your idea of christian morality where everyone gets together and decides what's wrong and right. There is no "system as a whole" when it comes to morality. When I make a moral choice for myself, I make it by myself. When I make a moral judgement... I make it based on my morals. I'm not saying that society doesn't influence my morals...it does... but unlike the system you believe you share with god, I don't base my judgements on what others think. It's based upon what I think. So, for example, if I hear about someone getting raped on the news...I don't sit there and think "gee...I wonder if everyone else thinks this is wrong or right?" Instead I think, "Gee...he shouldn't have done that." There's no conference call with "the system". I simply make a judgement based upon the info I have. Its just that quick.

Go back to when I said, "You don't understand subjective morality." Really let that sentence sink in for a minute... because you don't. It's not a "system" that if we all suddenly decided to follow it, it leads us to ruin. It's a description of the way morality works now. That's all. So pretty much everything you said from...

"But as a system all of those opinions are equal and have a chance of being applied. "

To...

"So no one can start to say we should ban this or that morally even though we are doing this in 100s of other ways with all the little rules and regulations societies have."

Makes zero sense at all. You act like it's some sort of guideline or principle or "system" that we can all choose to follow if we wanted...It's not. When I say that I'm a moral relativist/subjectivist it means that I think that describes the way morality works now. If you disagree, and you do, you'd argue by citing examples that show it isn't the way morality works. The fact that you seem to think it's some kind of guiding principle of morality that we should all avoid just shows me you really have no idea what you're talking about.

This thread isn't about subjective vs objective morality though... it's about whether or not secularism is ruining the world. You posted some articles about how people are taking more meds for depression and anxiety disorders. You seem to think this is a result of moving away from christianity. It isn't. None of the articles you cited claimed that secularism is to blame in any way. The reality is that the happiest people in the world all come from the most secular nations in the world. The least happy all come from very religious nations. Some of the most prosperous nations in the world are also the most secular... while the least prosperous are all very religious.

What you're proposing has been done. There have been many many nations that instituted christian values as guidelines for how everyone should live. Those nations all suffered poverty, violence, moral degradation and far far worse. Instituting religious values does nothing to help a people...but it's done a lot to hurt them.

Get happy in the world's happiest countries - CNN.com

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...lar-societies-fare-better-religious-societies

 

[Loudmouth]

Thats what I dont get with atheist non believers. You accuse believers of trying to install our morals onto others. you claim that no one knows the true meaning of right and wrong and especially say that our God is not one who has any claim to being worthy to judge. Yet you then use the same stance and morals to judge God and believers with. Are the moral values you are using to assess that God is immoral the true morals according to you. How do you know that the morals you are judging God with are the truth. How do you know that what God does isn't associated with a greater truth. It seems you are now claiming you know what is truly right and wrong.

How do you determine if God is moral?

If you are not capable of determining what is moral on your own, how can you say that God is moral?

It seems that you are confusing obedience with morality.

You almost deny the truth so that you can accuse God. You claim to know what God thinks. You believe in mans ability to be subjective but you dont apply that to a believer so that you can take away any human aspect involved where God is concerned. You focus on an evil that men do whether they are representing God or not and blame God for it all. But then conveniently overlook any good that people do as Christians at the same time. God and believers are damned if they do and damned if they dont according to that logic.

I tend to agree with Steven Weinberg on this one.

“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”--Steven Weinberg

 

[stevevw]

Before I reply, I'd like to point out you quoted yourself, thinking it was my quote, and then agreed with yourself lol. Take a look at this part of your post...

"You have just said it yourself that overall we havnt got things right."

You said this in response to something you thought I wrote in post 106...but it's actually your quote from post 102 that I responded to in 106. Lol basically, you quoted yourself... then agreed with it, remarking how it was exactly what you were saying. A simple mistake, but seriously, maybe it's time to consider shortening your posts a bit if you can't remember what you said just one page ago. Anyway...you said this...

Ok well whats happening as unlike the normal replies you are including my posts in the same writing as yours and without quote marks. So all the writing looks the same. So you are taking one sentence that I may have said and putting in among what you say all in the same style writing. So I am not able to tell the difference. This may be because the reply button is not working. But still if you put quotes around it it should show it as different. Thats why I was coloring my quotes different to high light them. But it looks like I missed one. Oh well I thought you agreed with me for once. And yes I do carry on but I like to elaborate rather than make a short reply that can be dismissive.

"OK I'm not just talking about you but society and the system as a whole."
This is what I mean above as I spotted this time. Its in the same writing as yours and can be confused as something you say. It should either be quoted as something I said like, this is what you said and highlighted.

As I said in my last post, you just don't seem to get subjective morality. It's not like your idea of christian morality where everyone gets together and decides what's wrong and right. There is no "system as a whole" when it comes to morality. When I make a moral choice for myself, I make it by myself. When I make a moral judgement... I make it based on my morals. I'm not saying that society doesn't influence my morals...it does... but unlike the system you believe you share with god, I don't base my judgements on what others think. It's based upon what I think. So, for example, if I hear about someone getting raped on the news...I don't sit there and think "gee...I wonder if everyone else thinks this is wrong or right?" Instead I think, "Gee...he shouldn't have done that." There's no conference call with "the system". I simply make a judgement based upon the info I have. Its just that quick.

Go back to when I said, "You don't understand subjective morality." Really let that sentence sink in for a minute... because you don't. It's not a "system" that if we all suddenly decided to follow it, it leads us to ruin. It's a description of the way morality works now. That's all. So pretty much everything you said from...

"But as a system all of those opinions are equal and have a chance of being applied. "

To...

"So no one can start to say we should ban this or that morally even though we are doing this in 100s of other ways with all the little rules and regulations societies have."

Makes zero sense at all. You act like it's some sort of guideline or principle or "system" that we can all choose to follow if we wanted...It's not. When I say that I'm a moral relativist/subjectivist it means that I think that describes the way morality works now. If you disagree, and you do, you'd argue by citing examples that show it isn't the way morality works. The fact that you seem to think it's some kind of guiding principle of morality that we should all avoid just shows me you really have no idea what you're talking about.

This thread isn't about subjective vs objective morality though... it's about whether or not secularism is ruining the world. You posted some articles about how people are taking more meds for depression and anxiety disorders. You seem to think this is a result of moving away from Christianity. It isn't. None of the articles you cited claimed that secularism is to blame in any way. The reality is that the happiest people in the world all come from the most secular nations in the world. The least happy all come from very religious nations. Some of the most prosperous nations in the world are also the most secular... while the least prosperous are all very religious.

I understand what subjective morality is but as you said this forum isn't about morality I will leave it at that as that subject is a big one and though its sort of related will only complicate things. But one thing I would like to point out is that I didn't say or imply that the results of people with depression ect is from moving away from Christianity. I was merely pointing out that for whatever reason the present lifestyles of modern day societies especially those in more modernized countries are showing a lot of stress, depression, anxiety and suicide. We already know of the higher levels of heart disease, diabetes and other lifestyle related illnesses. These go hand in hand with modern life.

There is also data showing that economically something is going wrong with the system. So you have to look at an overall historic view and see what the trends are and where things are heading. What is happening now maybe the culmination and end result of many years of particular things that society has been doing. Some say that our system of doing things is not working and what we have been seeing with financial collapses and other breakdowns with families and the justice system are just signs that our way of doing things is wrong.

Some believe that commercialism and the love of money and material things is causing most of our problems. Putting profits before people. So in some ways people who have little maybe truly happy because they dont have all those trappings to delude them into thinking they are happy and better off.

How do we know that communism for example isn't a better way of doing things politically and maybe socially. Some talk about a one world government. So eventually our system may completely break down and we will find ourselves in a different world with different ways of doing things that maybe more repressive.

I am not sure you can clearly determine why a society is happy and successful. Many will say that the countries you mention as secular are basically built on Christian values. The religious ones you mention who are suffering are normally the poor , uneducated ones and there are many factors why that is besides religion. In some ways the western countries have contributed to their problems. In other ways we are responsible for helping them.

But if you break down the factors about what Christianity does in our societies there are stats which show people are better off with a religion and belonging to one. They foster a sense of belonging, support the vulnerable in society and give hope where there is none. They can teach and instill a good sense of morality and there are stats which show there are better outcomes for people physically, mentally, emotionally and financially.

What you're proposing has been done. There have been many many nations that instituted christian values as guidelines for how everyone should live. Those nations all suffered poverty, violence, moral degradation and far far worse. Instituting religious values does nothing to help a people...but it's done a lot to hurt them.

There have been times throughout history where religion has led to good results in society. But basically in a modern secular world and politics you cant have religion ruling things as it will be rejected. Belief has to be something chosen and free will is important if we are to come to that choice.

But you could also look at all the communist countries and dictators that are non religious and there will be many more that are causing misery and suffering. Throughout history secular politics and rulers have accounted for many more deaths and suffering that religion has ever caused. Thats because it is humans who are the ones doing it.

As for the links you posted its a bit funny because I have links that support the opposite for how religion affects people. So I guess you have to assess the source to see if its legit or not. Or maybe stats can be found for both sides of the story. I notice one was Australia as well. But there are many factors that make up a happy country. Australia has beautiful weather and great beaches. So even if you are poor you can sit on the beach and absorb the surroundings. Go to England where the weather is horrible and it makes a difference. They say there is such as thing as weather depression. People get depressed because of the bad overcast and dull miserable weather.

The other thing with comparing religion to secular life is that a large part of what religion is suppose to be is associated with suffering, poverty, homelessness, mental illness and all the other things that societies have problems with. In one way they are attracting those people and associated with them because they are involved in helping them. So their congregations will have a larger proportion of these people.

But like I said if you break down the workings of religion and what effects it has on people and society the research shows that it has a beneficial effect merely by the fact that it is including all those people who are vulnerable and isolated in society. Mainly because it gives hope and a sense of belonging and promotes a good lifestyle. Members of congregations are subject to continuous positive teachings about good living and being kind to others. That is what they are there for and that is their main mission in life. Most of the time secular society hasn't got time for this. Governments dont put time and money towards these things so its the religious charities mostly that are involved in helping the vulnerable in society.

https://www.dosomething.org/facts/11-facts-about-global-poverty

Heres some research from one of the sites you linked which shows that belonging to religion helps a person with their physical and mental health.
Religious Americans are reported to have more robust immune systems, lower blood pressure, and better recovery times from operations, (although these claims have been disputed) (2, 3). Attending church provides many potential health advantages including promotion of a healthier lifestyle, improved stress management, and better social support (4). Such benefits could explain why religious Americans live longer according to some studies
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-human-beast/201302/do-religious-people-really-live-longer
Being married and being involved in religious activities are generally associated with positive effects in several areas, including physical and mental health, economic outcomes, and the process of raising children.
The Benefits from Marriage and Religion in the United States: A Comparative Analysis
8 Ways Religion Impacts Your Life
Puts a smile on your face
Raises self-esteem (if you live in the right place)
Soothes anxiety
Protects against depressive symptoms
Motivates doctor visits
Lowers your blood pressure
Helps you resist junk food
But could make you fat
http://www.livescience.com/18421-religion-impacts-health.html

 

[Strathos]

“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”--Steven Weinberg

Even atheists can realize this is nonsense.

 

[stevevw]

Loudmouth

How do you determine if God is moral?

Through Jesus Christ. He was God in the flesh who came down from heaven to show us who God was and how we should live. It is only though Him that we come to God.

I tend to agree with Steven Weinberg on this one.

“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”--Steven Weinberg

Evil people hide behind religion to do evil. What he didn't say to counter balance that out is that religion also can make bad people do good. Its always one sided when it comes to atheists beliefs.

The other thing is the logic he uses can be applied to anything so it doesn't say much about religion but rather more about humans. For example for people good with money to swindle you that takes a banker or finance broker. The greatest rip offs that have occurred with money are from people who are in positions of looking after money and are good at dealing with money.

 

[terryjohn]

Does our morality oblige God to save us? Is God duty bound to only save only those who are moral? Do not all men have morals of some kind?

 

[Loudmouth]

Even atheists can realize this is nonsense.

In your own words, what makes it nonsense?

 

[Loudmouth]

Loudmouth
Through Jesus Christ. He was God in the flesh who came down from heaven to show us who God was and how we should live. It is only though Him that we come to God.

That really doesn't answer the question. All you have described is where the commands came from. What you didn't discuss is how we know if those commands are moral.

Evil people hide behind religion to do evil. What he didn't say to counter balance that out is that religion also can make bad people do good. Its always one sided when it comes to atheists beliefs.

Religions have also made good people do bad. Your own posts show how this is done. First step, you pronounce that no matter what God says, it has to be moral by definition. Second step, put your words in God's mouth, and people obey.

 

[Strathos]

In your own words, what makes it nonsense?

The fact that it's hard to define "good" and "evil" people if their acts are not relevant (you shall know them by their fruit), and the fact that many other kinds of ideologies and beliefs other than religion can compel people to do evil things that they otherwise wouldn't do.