Can there be morality without God?

[ThinkForYourself]

I don't need to read your mind. I just need to be able to use logic.

Clearly it is silly to think logic tells you what I would do in a given situation when you don't know me.

What you really mean is that your logic tells you would do in a given situation. So, just because you would act immorally if God didn't carry a big stick doesn't mean everyone would.

 

[Inkfingers]

Clearly it is silly to think logic tells you what I would do in a given situation when you don't know me.

What you really mean is that your logic tells you would do in a given situation. So, just because you would act immorally if God didn't carry a big stick doesn't mean everyone would.

I do not believe that you actually understand the subject; hence you keep repeating this as if is means anything.

So I politely decline trying to educate you on the matter until you show otherwise.

 

[Strathos]

We already live in a godless, uncreated universe, so that doesn't pose a problem.


eudaimonia,

Mark

According to you...

 

[Eudaimonist]

According to you...

Yes, according to me, just like your claim that God is required for anything to exist is according to you.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Strathos]

Yes, according to me, just like your claim that God is required for anything to exist is according to you.

And several billion other people throughout history.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

I don't need to read your mind. I just need to be able to use logic.

You are thoroughly confused.

Logic is the study and application of methods and principles used to discern correct reasoning from incorrect reasoning.

What you're using is called 'imagination'. You imagine yourself to possess knowledge that you categorically do not and can not possibly possess - namely, the content of other people's thoughts. This is what you've predicated your apologetic on, not any rigorous application of logic.

Such vacuous naked assertions are dismissed out of hand, immediately and unceremoniously.

 

[Eudaimonist]

And several billion other people throughout history.

So? What does adding people really matter? What if the number of people who take my position were to be twice the number that take yours? How about ten times that number? How about a hundred times?

What do numbers matter?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

And several billion other people throughout history.

Please educate yourself on this extremely basic logical fallacy,

Fallacy: Appeal to Popularity

 

[OldWiseGuy]

What in the blue hell do you think you're talking about?

The premise is yours, remember? You said Christian morality is not about adhering to a code. Do you mean to say you don't accept your own premise? Or do you mean to say it is possible to categorically identify 'sinful' acts and behaviors without having a moral code?

Well read Christians know exactly what I mean (We often answer from scripture).

Here's some 'blue' fer ya.

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." (2 Corinthians 3:6)

We're basically talking about two entirely different moralities. God's vs man's. It's hard to describe God's morality to someone who doesn't believe in God; it's 'foolishness' to you, which of course proves scripture.

I just read of a perfect example of man's morality. A young man was convicted of murder and sentenced to 55 years in prison. He didn't commit murder. He was one of four burglars that were fired upon by the home owner, who killed one of them. Because 'someone' was killed during the event all of the other burglars were convicted of murder.

This is a perfect example of the logic and morality of man (it's almost as bad as putting those damned flower gardens in the middle of intersections (I just laugh).

 

[Ana the Ist]

. And for rules to be sacred they have to be believed in as absolute and not just the codifying of the desires of men in a social contract. They have to be at least as authoritative (and independent of human desire) as the laws of physics and mathematics. Things that are unquestionably true about the nature of the universe itself.

Anything less and they are contrivances built on sand and to be worked around if at all possible so long as you don't get caught and you don't rock the boat in doing so. And thus are not morals.

That's an interesting comparison...morals are facts that describe the universe much like they way mathematics and physics do.

Of course, the major difference between morals and mathematics/physics is that we can demonstrate mathematics and physics as facts. That's not something you can do with morals. Furthermore, we have a methodology for discovering laws of physics (science) and mathematics is basically a methodology in itself...there seems to be no methodology for discovering these morals you speak of.

So while it's an interesting comparison... it seems that morals have very little (if anything at all) in common with physics and mathematics.

 

[Ana the Ist]

We're basically talking about two entirely different moralities. God's vs man's. It's hard to describe God's morality to someone who doesn't believe in God; it's 'foolishness' to you, which of course proves scripture.

Why not take a stab at describing god's morality to us instead of just discounting everyone without trying? I think you'd be surprised at just how many things we can understand without actually believing in them.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

We're basically talking about two entirely different moralities. God's vs man's.

Once again, even granting the existence of a 'god', you have no access to his morality. All you have is the words of men pretending to speak on his behalf.

It's hard to describe God's morality

You can stop right there. Describing 'god's morality' is hard no matter who you're attempting to describe it to, whether they believe the stories of the Bible or not. Believers can't even agree on what 'god's morality' supposedly is, which is to be expected, because it doesn't exist anywhere outside your imagination.

The fact remains you have no reliable means of gleaning that 'god's morality' exists in the first place, let alone what it is, let alone why it should necessarily be adopted.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Why not take a stab at describing god's morality to us instead of just discounting everyone without trying? I think you'd be surprised at just how many things we can understand without actually believing in them.

It's hard to describe God's morality because it's so hard to demonstrate in an evil world. In fact your question is best answered by this event.

"And he went out from thence, and came into his own country; and his disciples follow him.

And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?

Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

But Jesus, said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.

And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them." (Mark 6:1-5 KJV)

 

[Ana the Ist]

It's hard to describe God's morality because it's so hard to demonstrate in an evil world. In fact your question is best answered by this event.

"And he went out from thence, and came into his own country; and his disciples follow him.

And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?

Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

But Jesus, said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.

And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them." (Mark 6:1-5 KJV)

I mean this in all sincerity....

That passage doesn't tell us a lot about what's morally good and bad.

Are you sure you quoted the right passage?

 

[Autumnleaf]

Why not take a stab at describing god's morality to us instead of just discounting everyone without trying? I think you'd be surprised at just how many things we can understand without actually believing in them.

God's morality would be, 'Thou shalt not kill.'

Man's morality would be that killing people is wrong unless it is done in the interest of the greater good of society. ie War, abortion or whatever other LEGAL reason it is justified by.

One is cut and dried and the other is capricious.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

God's morality would be, 'Thou shalt not kill.'

Even granting your god's existence, and the assertion that he has made moral decrees, and the assertion that the Bible accurately represents his moral decrees, your holy book has this same god character breaking this decree all the time, and explicitly commanding people to break it. So no, far from being 'cut and dried', it's entirely subject to his whims.

 

[Ana the Ist]

God's morality would be, 'Thou shalt not kill.'

Man's morality would be that killing people is wrong unless it is done in the interest of the greater good of society. ie War, abortion or whatever other LEGAL reason it is justified by.

One is cut and dried and the other is capricious.

Well the problem with "cut and dry" would be....what if someone is trying to kill me? What if I can't get away? Should I just let them kill me since god doesn't want me to kill?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I mean this in all sincerity....

That passage doesn't tell us a lot about what's morally good and bad.

Are you sure you quoted the right passage?

The passage isn't about morality per se, it's about the inability to describe what it is to unbelievers. The example of Jesus being rendered just another family member while at home attests to this. He was not able to deliver the gospel message. I can hear his family telling him, "Give it a rest, Jesus."

 

[Autumnleaf]

Well the problem with "cut and dry" would be....what if someone is trying to kill me? What if I can't get away? Should I just let them kill me since god doesn't want me to kill?

You disarm them and incapacitate them until the constable can take them into custody.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Even granting your god's existence, and the assertion that he has made moral decrees, and the assertion that the Bible accurately represents his moral decrees, your holy book has this same god character breaking this decree all the time, and explicitly commanding people to break it. So no, far from being 'cut and dried', it's entirely subject to his whims.

God did instruct Israel to kill their enemies, but such killing wasn't murder, and thus didn't violate the commandment.

The commandment not to kill (murder specifically) is part of the letter of the Law, "which killeth." It's moral component is in it's antithesis, which is the spirit of the law. Christians intrinsically follow the spirit of the law, but seldom express it, such is it's spiritual nature.