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... What the rest of you people think I couldn't care less. The day atheists do my bible reading for me is the day I might as well burn it. The bible also says: Do not answer a fool according to his folly or you will be like him yourself. Do you really think I expect or intend to change your minds on any of this? Dream on.
Steve said:Sir, you flatter me! I have a surviving younger sister who will turn 80 in December. I can assure you that her prosaic acumen leaves mine 'in the shade', so to speak. I can also assure you that my own abilities have dulled considerably over the years.
But thank you for the compliment.
Section10 said:Blue lightning asked me how I saw it and I told him. That's all. What the rest of you people think I couldn't care less.
The day atheists do my bible reading for me is the day I might as well burn it. The bible also says: Do not answer a fool according to his folly or you will be like him yourself. Do you really think I expect or intend to change your minds on any of this? Dream on.
For Blue lightning
I mean everyone has their own take on the laws of God and I do think revelation evolves to an extent even if it doesn't contradict itself.
The bible is riddled with admonitions to care for the poor. People just aren't very good at it. Back then nearly everyone was destitute poor. Those who were rich weren't interested in spreading any wealth around. People and governments are much better equipped to care for others today and yet people are still in want.
There are other forces at work in this world besides just forces for good. Everyone serves somebody.
Another meaningless opinion.
I make my choice because a deity in charge is the best deal out there.
You can choose whichever way you like and so will I.
Section10 said:You're not getting what I'm saying. By virtue of your position, you cut your own legs from underneath yourself. Where you stand, nothing means anything. Everything is a choice. If it weren't there would be no accountability and no meaning. The only place meaning is lost is where you are. You're not saying anything at all.
It means that even though it is Gods word we have to take into consideration that it is humans who are then writing things down. So it will have their perspective of things. An experience of God maybe expressed differently by different people. Just like people describe an event. Some may emphasizes a particular point or even exaggerate a point. But it doesn't mean that the event didn't happen. Atheists tend to try and put Gods word in a small box and say it has to be perfect like God is controlling humans like a robot.What does that mean?
Does the bible convey God's word or not?
I am sure I have debated this before with you. Maybe not but it seems most debates end up at this stage which to be honest was far from what I was talking about with my original point. As I said Jesus is the fulfillment of the law and in Jesus we can see all of God then Jesus is the same as God. Jesus has no sin and we have a perfect example of how to live. Going back and trying to make out that God is evil with ancient stories where that are hard to understand and making that over ride the central belief of Christianity is a bit far fetched.Instead of complaining, please show how God's genocidal acts described in the bible are taken out of context, so that they really aren't genocidal acts.
I'm betting you can't.
Steve said:It means that even though it is Gods word we have to take into consideration that it is humans who are then writing things down. So it will have their perspective of things. An experience of God maybe expressed differently by different people. Just like people describe an event. Some may emphasizes a particular point or even exaggerate a point. But it doesn't mean that the event didn't happen. Atheists tend to try and put Gods word in a small box and say it has to be perfect like God is controlling humans like a robot.
It means that even though it is Gods word we have to take into consideration that it is humans who are then writing things down. So it will have their perspective of things. An experience of God maybe expressed differently by different people. Just like people describe an event. Some may emphasizes a particular point or even exaggerate a point. But it doesn't mean that the event didn't happen. .
Atheists tend to try and put Gods word in a small box and say it has to be perfect like God is controlling humans like a robot.
PS, I have had a quick look over all my posts and I cant see any obvious posts along the lines of God in the old testament. The problem is form memory is that debates on this topic are often closed as it gets way off topic and heated. But I am sure if you look you will find examples elsewhere on this site.
It means that even though it is Gods word we have to take into consideration that it is humans who are then writing things down.
in Jesus we can see all of God then Jesus is the same as God.
Jesus has no sin and we have a perfect example of how to live. Going back and trying to make out that God is evil with ancient stories where that are hard to understand and making that over ride the central belief of Christianity is a bit far fetched.
Its a number of things and not one thing in itself. This is where others who want to dispute God will use one aspect in isolation. That is never used to be fair even for non religious things.Who decides what is from God, what is exaggerated, what comes from humans, etc? What is the criteria?
You say that because those claims are of the supernatural. So apart from faith in God people who are atheists or have worldly thinking will only believe in the things they can see and touch. They will want evidence they can test. Some will be over skeptical and dismiss everything that is slightly supernatural or not able to be proven by conventional methods. But all that doesn't mean that there can be the supernatural and a God. Or Ghosts or other things that are beyond the physics of our reality. Science even talks of these things nowadays. Because some of the evidence points towards something going on beyond our reality. Yet many are not to quick to dismiss this and will consider all sorts of things like multiverses, hologram dimensions, worm holes and time travel.This would lead to the conclusion, then, that everything written is suspect. Not only the parts that Christians so desperately try to avoid from the scriptures, but the 'good' parts too. The tales of virgins giving birth, of men rising from the dead; these too will have been written from a 'human perspective'. If you claim that this makes a difference in understanding the distasteful, it must also cast doubt on the supernatural.
Or you dont understand anything about the Christian God and how His realtionship worked throughout time with humans. Or you are seeing the so called stories in the old testament in a negative light in the first place showing an evil God when you have misunderstood what the stories were about. So this would then change everything. The Old testament God would then be more in line with Jesus. It would just show a different side to God. Before Jesus there was no salvation and redemption for sins. We didnt have the transforming blood of Christs sacrifice on the cross. So the old testament is all about establishing the laws and the punishment that gos with it. It is to show that we are all sinners before God. It is that show that we need the transforming blood of Jesus to save us from sin and death.Which presents an enormous problem for you. Either your God had an amazing change of heart from the time of the Old Testament to the New, or we conclude that the scripture writers chose to portray him in two entirely different lights. Which is it, do you think?
And that is why you have to read then with the New testament and Jesus in mind. Its like only reading the first part of a two part book. You cant understand the context of the movie until you read the whole book and both parts. Jesus fulfills over 300 prophesies from the old testament. The old testament is about sin entering the world, humans being separated from God. The laws being established to show are sinners and the need for Jesus to save us from that sin and death.Except for the fact that those stories are there for all of us to read! Ancient or not.
You say that because those claims are of the supernatural.
But the point I was making is not so much for whether an event is supernatural or not.
And that is why you have to read then with the New testament and Jesus in mind. Its like only reading the first part of a two part book. You cant understand the context of the movie until you read the whole book and both parts.
It goes back 100s of years before that with the Hebrews as slaves in Egypt
Maybe but how do we know. You quickly assume the side of it not happening so that shows where you are coming from. As a non believer you will say that. You dont believe in anything supernatural. You dont have any faith in God in the first place. We have more than one person saying Jesus came back to life so it would have to be a mass exaggeration.Right, so someone exaggerated and said Jesus came back to life.
I have faith and faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.Hebrews 11:1. So as the bible says it is an assurance. Not a maybe or a unsure thing but an assurance and a confidence. That is why I can stand on Gods word and know that I am OK. But you will not know this because you dont have that faith in God in the first place. So how can you be so confident and assured that there is no God. If there is a God then how can you be so assured that what He has said is not true. You cant and so just as much as you can claim that I can't know what God has said is false. You also can't know whether it might be true true according to the way you measure things.And you have no idea if anything you believe is true or not.
Where have I said that I dont know if the bible is true or not. You have injected what you think into the situation and changed it. You have misunderstood what I said and therefor have assumed I said something. But that assumption from you is based on a what you believe not what I believe.The two statements Ive quoted shows how silly biblical belief is. You admittedly have no idea what parts of the bible are make belief and which parts aren't. In fact you admittedly have no idea if the entire bible is made up or not, yet you base your life on what is a demonstrably immoral document.
Now you are doing all my thinking. Not just mine but all Christians. And they complain about Christians doing other peoples thinking. I am very assured of what is right and what is wrong in my life. I understand why I do things and its not just about obedience. Though we all are obedient to certain things in life. Gods laws and morals make very good sense. They allow me to avoid a whole lot of trouble. They give me better outcomes such as better physical and mental health. They give me better spiritual health which is missing in secular society. We are a three dimensional person with physical, mental and spiritual sides. I see Gods handy work in my life and others all the time. This is testimony to Gods work being good for a person.I would say you can't have morality with the Christian God. With the Christian God, all you have is obedience, like a dog who is told not to jump on the chesterfield.
Umm some how I am not sure that will be the case.OK, I'll drop it. You can have the last word.
stevew said:But all that doesn't mean that there can be the supernatural and a God. Or Ghosts or other things that are beyond the physics of our reality. Science even talks of these things nowadays.
Before Jesus there was no salvation and redemption for sins. We didnt have the transforming blood of Christs sacrifice on the cross.
Jesus fulfills over 300 prophesies from the old testament.
Maybe but how do we know. You quickly assume the side of it not happening so that shows where you are coming from.
We have more than one person saying Jesus came back to life so it would have to be a mass exaggeration.
I have faith and faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.
But you will not know this because you dont have that faith in God in the first place. So how can you be so confident and assured that there is no God. If there is a God then how can you be so assured that what He has said is not true.
Gods laws and morals make very good sense.
I clarified what I meant by science supporting things that have all the hallmarks of the supernatural. I mentioned these things in my last post. Things like hologram worlds and multi verses, worm holes and time travel. These are similar to ghosts and other dimensions of the spirit world. Even time travel is always used in science fiction with movies like back to the future. But of course science wont admit supporting supernatural things because that goes against everything they believe. But if you listen to some of their language especially since the age of quantum physics and it is sounding very out of this world. They are using more of this language because they have to to explain what they are seeing. It is going beyond the normal physics and logic.Post just one scientific paper about ghosts. Just one. Otherwise you're lying. And is lying what it takes to support your beliefs?
God did. That was the only way to save us from sin and death.Who decided it took blood to atone sins?
What makes you say that. You say it like you know 100% that you are right. You would have to be God Himself to know that. John the baptist fulfills one of the prophesies of proclaiming Jesus was coming and to prepare the way. He was beheaded by Herod Antipas and is a real figure in history. When Jesus was crucified He fulfilled many prophesies as well.He fulfills not a single one. That's just a bogus belief from bogus propaganda.
I believe that we all do know God is true. People have just blocked God out with all the white noise of atheists thinking. The bible says its written in our hearts. We see it in His creation. When I look at the universe and all its celestial bodies I dont think that it all blew into perfect place. I see Gods work. How all the laws of gravity and dark energy, space and time work is really beyond our understanding. We think we know but that is just a man made explanation because man thinks everything has to have a logical reason. But we are finding now as we get closer to the tiny world where something can come into existence from nothing that there are strange things that happen beyond the explainable.If you don't know something to be true, the correct position is to wait for evidence before believing it to be. Nobody in their right mind decides to believe outrageous claims while at the same time saying "how do we know." This is akin to the alien abduction believers.
There are many in the bible.Where are the eye witness accounts?
People use faith when they trust a friend to do the right thing. There is an element of faith in a lot of things we do. We trust and have faith in our partners. We have trust that they will be faithful to us. We cannot know for sure. Like I said we all know of Gods creation and it is built into us. So we are without excuse.Faith is what is used when evidence does not exist. Faith is an excuse to believe that which has no reason to believe it. Faith is a good excuse to believe a wrong thing.
How is it so wrong to be using the same logic that you want to use to say there is no God. The same logic can make a case that you cant prove there is no God either. Many of the great non believing minds say that a case to either prove or disprove God cannot be made. So I am just using the same logic.So much so wrong here. How do you know your god is the God? How do you determine what He said when you've already said you can't?
I have been through this before many times. A case can be made to show that God did not want slavery as an ideal but accepted that it was done in the world of the ancient Israelites. But what He did do was set the process to change things so that it was regulated and eventually stopped. The other thing is that most of the so called slavery was not the type of slavery that many non believers like to focus on. It was indentured servants who often found a better life by offering themselves as payment for debt or in punishment for crimes. The practice was highly regulated and there were punishments for those who did wrong.Slavery and genocide make very good sense???????!
I believe that we all do know God is true. People have just blocked God out with all the white noise of atheists thinking. The bible says its written in our hearts. We see it in His creation. When I look at the universe and all its celestial bodies I dont think that it all blew into perfect place. I see Gods work.
Stevew said:I clarified what I meant by science supporting things that have all the hallmarks of the supernatural. I mentioned these things in my last post. Things like hologram worlds and multi verses, worm holes and time travel. These are similar to ghosts and other dimensions of the spirit world.
But if you listen to some of their language especially since the age of quantum physics and it is sounding very out of this world. They are using more of this language because they have to to explain what they are seeing. It is going beyond the normal physics and logic.
God did. That was the only way to save us from sin and death.
What makes you say that. You say it like you know 100% that you are right. You would have to be God Himself to know that. John the baptist fulfills one of the prophesies of proclaiming Jesus was coming and to prepare the way. He was beheaded by Herod Antipas and is a real figure in history. When Jesus was crucified He fulfilled many prophesies as well.
Isaiah 53:3-6
3 He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Messiah would be tortured to death: Psalm 22
There were actually 365 prophecies about Jesus.
365 Messianic Prophecies
I believe that we all do know God is true.
People have just blocked God out with all the white noise of atheists thinking.
The bible says its written in our hearts. We see it in His creation. When I look at the universe and all its celestial bodies I dont think that it all blew into perfect place. I see Gods work. How all the laws of gravity and dark energy, space and time work is really beyond our understanding. We think we know but that is just a man made explanation because man thinks everything has to have a logical reason. But we are finding now as we get closer to the tiny world where something can come into existence from nothing that there are strange things that happen beyond the explainable.
Jesus says the only way to be saved is by faith.
People use faith when they trust a friend to do the right thing. There is an element of faith in a lot of things we do. We trust and have faith in our partners. We have trust that they will be faithful to us. We cannot know for sure. Like I said we all know of Gods creation and it is built into us. So we are without excuse.
Romans 1:20
These invisible power are the laws that scientists try to explain. They are in the world of quantum physics which scientists cannot explain. They are in what scientist call dark energy and matter. They keep the universe together and stop the planets and stars flying around and going out of control. They are in a new born baby and all the animals and nature. They are in the many perfect constants that make up our universe and make planet earth inhabitable for life.
How is it so wrong to be using the same logic that you want to use to say there is no God.
I have been through this before many times. A case can be made to show that God did not want slavery as an ideal but accepted that it was done in the world of the ancient Israelites.
The practice was highly regulated and there were punishments for those who did wrong.
The irony is that slavery including the bad type was practiced by the rest of the world then. It was included in all the known history of what we have been taught about other civilizations. Yet never is it so scrutinized and condemned than when it is referred to in the bible. In fact it is hardly mentioned as bad in history and in some cases is seen by many historians as necessary and good to build the ancient world.
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