can the non-elect be saved??

[Hammster]

Non responsive. I asked if you understand the question. Do you or not?

Can the non-elect be saved? That's the question. But you've claimed that Calvinists believe something that we do not, which has been demonstrated seven ways from Sunday.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The very first thing you post in the OP is your question, "Can the non-elect be saved?" And you answer this in the affirmative.

I never gave my answer. I asked the question of Calvinists to answer.

[QUTOE] You then go on to argue against Calvinism's specific doctrines of unconditional election and limited atonement. This is where I see the disconnect.[/QUOTE]
The disconnect is your claim here. I never mentioned either unconditional election or limited atonement. I asked questions. It was you who made that connection all on your own. All I asked is for a Calvinist to explain WHY Jesus said what He said to those He described. Can you do that?

What I think everyone here has tried to say, and you've so far dismissed all of us as dodging the question and hijacking threads, is this:

There is no such thing as a saved person who is not elect.

That statement is totally irrelevant to the OP. That's why I've dismissed them.

There is no question that the elect will be saved. That wasn't the question. Can you answer it?

I think you actually agree with this statement, at least it's what I've drawn from your rather agitated responses, when you aren't reprimanding people for avoiding your questions, or threatening to report them to the authorities

I'm not agitated, but I'm not going to allow those who apparently don't like the OP to hijack this thread or deflect from the OP. And I have reported those who have tried to hijack the thread.

So if you agree with that bolded statement, then your very opening lines of the OP don't make sense. They aren't even self-consistent with what you yourself profess to believe.

Could you please elaborate specifically on what you mean here?

If this is about the basis of why a person is among "the elect," then that's a topic unto itself, one debated here ad nauseum.

No, it's not about the basis of why a person is one of the elect. In fact the question is real simple: WHY did Jesus say "so that you may be saved" to a crowd He described as not believing in Him, refusing to come to Him and not accepting Him, and WHY did He use the subjunctive mood.

But I don't think anyone can agree with your answer to your own question. We must all say "NO. The non-elect cannot be saved."

So then, WHY WHY WHY did Jesus SAY "so that you MAY BE SAVED" to them?

Maybe Jesus doesn't agree with this crowd who disagree with a "yes" answer.

As to Jesus' words to the crowd, how do you know--whether from a Calvinist, Arminian or any other perspective--that any of those people there were, or weren't, elect?

That is immaterial. But since you insist, please do this:
#1 Answer the question of WHY did Jesus say what He did IF all the crowd were those Christ didn't die for (non elect per Calvinism).
#2 Answer the question of WHY Jesus used the subjunctive mood IF all the crowd were pre-believing elect.

Is that helpful to clarify answers for either condition?

He was preaching to a crowd of unbelievers, which is not at all the same as a crowd of "non-elect."

Please answer questions #1 and #2. Your protest is immaterial. We all know that Calvinists believe that Christ didn't die for non elect. That is the focus for WHY Jesus said "so that you may be saved". Seems no one is comfortable answering WHY.

Calvinism can very consistently say that in that crowd, some, all, or none could have been elect, though all were unbelievers at that moment.

Again, absolutely irrelevant. I've given you 2 different scenarios in which to answer. Will you do that?

If anyone in that crowd later repented of their sin and came to faith, sought baptism in the Church and renounced their former unbelief, then we--Calvinists, non-Calvinists and crickets alike--would all agree that those who came to faith, were the elect.

So, please address the WHY of Jesus using the subjunctive mood for these pre-believing elect.

Those who persisted in their hardness of heart, were not elect.

Right. So, please explain WHY Jesus told them "so that you may be saved" to THEM.

I don't see how the passage quoted in the OT is even relevant to the question you're asking.

What passage was that? I quoted from John 5:33-47. Directly.

If your real challenge here, is for Calvinists to defend their views of unconditional election and all that goes with it, then let's keep it on that topic.

My OP is very clear and focused.

And I'm glad to see that you don't accept Open Theism

That is total blasphemy.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Would Calvinists identify these unbelieving Jewish leaders, addressed in John 5, as reprobate per their understanding of the term?

Seems to me that Paul, while still Saul, quite likely would have been among these same zealous Jews who were told by Jesus that they refused to receive the one whom God sent (had he been there on that day, of course). Yet Paul himself was awakened from his hard-heartedness later, and became a believer.

Please address the OP and don't hijack the thread.

 

[FreeGrace2]

First, that is quite an unsubstantiated premise, and second that is NOT what Jesus said.

What Jesus SAID is found in the OP. We all know what He said. The request is to explain WHY He said "so that you may be saved" to that crowd.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Based on that knowledge, would you say he chose, before the foundation of the world, those who were known by him to be believers?

If yes: then you affirm that some are born into this world as "non-chosen" ie "non-elect"

If no: you contradict the Bible at Eph 1:4, and you unravel and refute all the hard work you've done over the past year in using Romans 8:28 and 1 Peter 1:1-2, asserting they are speaking of choosing according to foreseen faith.

So you're in a tough spot here.

I have asked you to not hijack this thread. Either focus on the OP or post elsewhere. None of your post here is relevant to the OP.

So I'll take that as you have no answer. So please move along so that other Calvinists can take a turn.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So refreshing to see a non-Calvinist accurately represent Calvinism. I didn't think it was possible. Thank you.

I asked you to NOT hijack this thread. Your post is off topic. If you can't provide an explanation of WHY Jesus said "so that you may be saved" to that crowd, please don't fill this thread with irrelevant things.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Cool. so you affirm that some people are born into this world who have no "access" to salvation, as you once argued Calvinism is guilty of.

Also, you're totally refuted and debunked all that work you've done over the past year in using Rom 8 and 1 Peter 1:1-2.

Congrats!

This post is off topic and irrelevant to the OP.

You are trying to hijack this thread. That is a violation of forum rules.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I was once told: "God, before the foundation of the world, looked down the corridor of time and in His foreknowledge saw those who would accept the offer of His salvation through His Son Christ Jesus and He also saw those who would not accept it and they have therefore been left to their sins and disobedience toward God".
Ok, let's say this is what is meant by foreknowledge and this is true. It still places burden on the Arminian to prove the atonement of Christ isn't particular. If God saw who would be saved, then those are the only people Christ died for, which makes those who wouldn't accept the offer excluded from Christ atonement. Yes, I am a Calvinist because I believe foreknowledge is more intimate than just knowing and because scripture tells me that faith is a gift from God. As a Calvinist, I don't have to prove Christ's death wasn't limited, because even if foreknowledge is merely that and not more intimate, than Christ still died for only those whom God saw would believe. No matter how one looks at it, only those that either God chose unto salvation will be saved or those whom God saw would accept salvation would be saved, which leaves the rest without hope of salvation, therefore making the great commission still effective for only those who are God's. The proof of non-particular atonement rest solely on the shoulders of the Arminian in either view, but he can't deny in either view (especially if he believes the corridor of time statement) that Christ's death is sufficient for all, but effective only for those whom God chose or for those whom He saw would accept. Christ death is particular in either circumstance, that's why he was a substitute, the propitiation for many. It's why the narrow gate take few and the path to death takes many.

Would you kindly focus on the OP and explain WHY Jesus said "so that you may be saved" to the crowed He described as not believing in Him, refusing to come to Him for life, and not accepting Him.

Any other irrelevant response violates forum rules regarding hijacking threads.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I proved that your premise presented in the OP is false.

What was my "premise"? I asked a question. How is that a premise? You've proven only that you haven't addressed the OP. There was no premise. You've only read that in to the OP, which is also known as eisegesis.

Because of that, the rest of your argument is pointless. How many ways have we proven this now?

Zero, and counting. And your post here is non responsive, again.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Can the non-elect be saved? That's the question. But you've claimed that Calvinists believe something that we do not, which has been demonstrated seven ways from Sunday.

I stated that Calvinists believe that Christ didn't die for the non elect, and now you are saying that Calvinism doesn't believe that?????? When did you change your view on that? You sure argued that when discussing Heb 2:9.

Or have you forgotten that one?

 

[jamantc]

Divine election and human responsibility are both scriptural truths. Men are damned by their own choice and not by God. All mankind is worthy of death as they are born in enmity against God, yet God chose to save some (either by election or simple foreknowledge only those can be saved, not the non-elect or those whom were not seen as choosing Christ), not because of anything He saw they would do, but because of what He knew He would do. For God to save any is grace, sovereign grace, since we are all deserving of eternal separation from Him. Paul was clear, as was Isaiah, that God can do as He pleases with whatever He pleases. He is the potter and as the clay we are subject to His will and not that of our own. Scripture tells us that it is not of man who runs or of man who wills, but of God wills and wills for His Own purpose according to the council of His Own will. If scripture cannot interpret scripture, then we have a God that is man centered not a God who has created all things for His Own glory as scripture states. Paul preached to everyone whom he came in contact with, but why did he do this? Simple, Paul (just like us) doesn't know who the elect are and that is why the Great Commission is a call to spread the word into all the world. Jesus Himself said that all whom the Father give me will come and them I will not turn away. We are told in scripture that all who had been appointed (tasso=ordained) to eternal life believed and who ordained them to believe, surely it wasn't any of the apostles or those who believed as they could not ordain or appoint themselves. Then we are told that whosoever will believe is saved. If scripture is taken from Genesis to Revelation, God has chosen, appointed, predestined, saved a remnant, and stated that whosoever will is saved. This by no means contradicts itself when we know that our thoughts nor our ways are like His. As a Calvinist, I for one do not believe we are saved by works, but that we walk in the works which He has prepared for us before the foundation of the world and as we walk in them, we do them with gladness as to please our Lord and Savior and show that we are His. We are saved by faith alone which is a gift of God that no man should boast. If we laid prostrate in front of the Creator in awe of who He is and what He has done and know that we have be saved from what we justly deserve, we would love Him more deeply and spread His word to the ends of the earth so that those who are His may hear His word and come.

 

[Hammster]

What was my "premise"? I asked a question. How is that a premise? You've proven only that you haven't addressed the OP. There was no premise. You've only read that in to the OP, which is also known as eisegesis.


Zero, and counting. And your post here is non responsive, again.

First, we'll examine how Jesus described this crowd He was talking to:
1. v.38 "you do not believe"
2. v.40 "you refuse to come to Me and have life"
3. v.43 "you do not accept Me

According to Calvinism, this description fits their understanding of what the non-elect are.

This is from the OP. It is wrong. It's a false premise.

 

[jamantc]

Would you kindly focus on the OP and explain WHY Jesus said "so that you may be saved" to the crowed He described as not believing in Him, refusing to come to Him for life, and not accepting Him.

Any other irrelevant response violates forum rules regarding hijacking threads.

You may have my posts deleted kind sir! I answered your question but in your pathetic attempt to accept the truth that Christ specifically died for either those whom God chose or for those whom He foreknew would accept Christ. If you assume I hijacked your thread, then have me removed from the forum or banned or whatever you see just to be done with me! I am sorry that you are blind and that the scales have not been removed from your eyes. You attempt to use forum rules because you don't accept God's truth from scripture. I shall pray that God opens your sinful mind to the truth and to love to those whom you disagree with and that tolerance shall befall you unless you are truly reprobate and of the non-elect of whom God didn't choose or foresee would accept His offer. I shall refrain from posting further in your thread, not in fear of being ejected by ban from the forum, but in love for my Lord and Savior so that I do not let the sinful man from whom He saved me from being return and be agitated by such as one like you

 

[Edial]

This thread is too tightly wound.

Closing.

Please open MSC thread is you have questions.

Thank you.
Edial