Can someone please explain to me...

[daydreamergurl15]

If someone has never heard of the words of god, would he/she go to hell?

Acts 17:24-31

The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, nor is He served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since He Himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. And He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward Him and find Him. Yet He is actually not far from each one of us, for

"'In Him we live and move and have our being';
as even some of your own poets have said,
"'For we are indeed His offspring.'

Being then God’s offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man. The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now He commands all people everywhere to repent, because He has fixed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom He has appointed; and of this He has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead."​

All man will be judged based on His words. If we have not been obedient to it, then yes, He will punish us. And if we know of someone who have not heard then it is us to us to teach them. We can't sit there and say "How is it that God will send those to hell who have not heard?" If we know someone have not heard, then obviously He is telling us that we must be the ones to spread His word.

And in fact, He tells the Apostles and I'm sure it goes to everyone of us, that they are to spread the word to everyone on earth. If people choose not to listen, that's their choice but we can't bury our heads and not say anything and yet still tell ourselves that God will not judge them. That wouldn't even make sense for Christ to die, if the punishment of sin was not that serious.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

No they or 'you' will not go to hell just because you haven't had the oppertunity to hear the word of God.

As long as this said person makes up for the bad things they have done and show that they truley want to change, then God will forgive and forget and take them under his wing, so long as they believe and follow.

What I bolded, doesn't that count as work?
Aren't we told that work does not give one into heaven?
And if someone doesn't know that they need to repent of their sins then how would they know to make up for the bad things they have done? And if they have not heard, how exactly are they going to believe and follow?

I'm just trying to understand your reasoning...nothing more.

 

[S.O.C]

Probably because there's no biblical support for it.

My reason for mentioning the alcohol episodes in the Bible was not intended to change the topic of the original issue (age of accountability) but I was using it to demonstrate the point that some issues weather good or bad are not always spelled out in the Bible but logic would dictate otherwise and lead us to a moral conclusion. Can't always draw a line in the sand based on 1 or 2 quotes from the Bible because there are many aspects to considering Biblical text to determine what is true, what is being said, why is it being said, and what are it implications. Exegesis of Biblical text is crucial not only to understsnding but also to avoid the ignorance of spreading false doctrine. Consider the fact that when Jesus, Paul, or whom ever Biblical figure was giving speeches in synagogues or among Jewish leaders, their audience was not infants or very small children so the audience in which they typically was making statements is significant to what was being taught. What's would be the point in trying to preaching to infants? So what is being said is meant for those who hear it and there is a basic assumption that that audience can understand the message. For, example if we use the quote from Paul that "faith comes from hearing and hearing through the word of Christ" and let's say you preach the message of the Gospel in English language but the person you are communicating the message of Christ only understands Spanish language did you really communicate the Gospel? Would you expect that person to be changed or even influenced by it? Or should Paul have explain to his reader that the message of Christ must be spoken in the same language as the person who needs to hear it? The answer would be NO! The author already assume you know this because its would only make sense to do so. The Bible was not wrote for infants or small children it was created to give the word to people who can read and have a certain level of intellect to either condemn the hard hearted towards God or nurture the willing hearted towards God. To go back to what was originally said about Jesus being the only way to God is true but the interpretation of what is meant by Jesus saying "...the way..." is not really clear. Old testament saints were technically the first Christians to hear the good news and enter heaven being saved by it. How Jesus will grant salvation to the soles that did not have a chance to hear or understand who God is not for anyone but God and our Lord to decide. The character of God was demonstrated by Jesus, through love, mercy, compassion, trust, charity, and obedience so not only does sending an innocent infant to hell not make sense it goes against the character of God.

 

[Zebra1552]

My reason for mentioning the alcohol episodes in the Bible was not intended to change the topic of the original issue (age of accountability) but I was using it to demonstrate the point that some issues weather good or bad are not always spelled out in the Bible but logic would dictate otherwise and lead us to a moral conclusion.

Logic does not dictate that drinking is always wrong, so your demonstration fails. Logic dictates that drinking should be done while considering what one can and cannot handle, and similarly logic dictates looking at context and the meaning of passages in the Bible rather than reading into those passages in favor of viewing a merciful God.

Can't always draw a line in the sand based on 1 or 2 quotes from the Bible because there are many aspects to considering Biblical text to determine what is true, what is being said, why is it being said, and what are it implications. Exegesis of Biblical text is crucial not only to understsnding but also to avoid the ignorance of spreading false doctrine. Consider the fact that when Jesus, Paul, or whom ever Biblical figure was giving speeches in synagogues or among Jewish leaders, their audience was not infants or very small children so the audience in which they typically was making statements is significant to what was being taught. What's would be the point in trying to preaching to infants? So what is being said is meant for those who hear it and there is a basic assumption that that audience can understand the message. For, example if we use the quote from Paul that "faith comes from hearing and hearing through the word of Christ" and let's say you preach the message of the Gospel in English language but the person you are communicating the message of Christ only understands Spanish language did you really communicate the Gospel? Would you expect that person to be changed or even influenced by it? Or should Paul have explain to his reader that the message of Christ must be spoken in the same language as the person who needs to hear it? The answer would be NO! The author already assume you know this because its would only make sense to do so. The Bible was not wrote for infants or small children it was created to give the word to people who can read and have a certain level of intellect to either condemn the hard hearted towards God or nurture the willing hearted towards God.

Except that to say that God doesn't send people to hell up to a certain age is nothing but an assumption. You do not know and cannot know that for certain. The Bible doesn't make it clear. Claiming that an age of accountability exists when there is no biblical support for that claim is nothing short of adding to the Bible. Saying that you can suppose that an age of accountability exists from what the Bible doesn't say is nothing short of an argument from silence, which is a logical fallacy.

To go back to what was originally said about Jesus being the only way to God is true but the interpretation of what is meant by Jesus saying "...the way..." is not really clear. Old testament saints were technically the first Christians to hear the good news and enter heaven being saved by it. How Jesus will grant salvation to the soles that did not have a chance to hear or understand who God is not for anyone but God and our Lord to decide. The character of God was demonstrated by Jesus, through love, mercy, compassion, trust, charity, and obedience so not only does sending an innocent infant to hell not make sense it goes against the character of God.

It is quite clear. You cannot go to heaven without knowing Jesus in some way. Old Testament saints did know Jesus: they knew that God saves people, and without Him they are hopelessly lost. They knew quite well the concept of Jesus.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

I understand where those are coming from who claims an "age of accountability."
Why?

If you look at the stories in scripture, you realize that those who have come to God and repented on their sins were adult who understood their offensives against God. But you do find those adults were fully aware of their offensives.

On the day of Pentacost, in the book of Acts, when those hearing the Apostle Peter they were cut to the heart and asked "Men and brothers what shall we do." Peter told them, "Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Acts 2:37-38

I don't ever want to say that kids aren't capable of believing, repenting and baptizing, but I don't think many of them who can understand what that means. The kids have to be "cut to the heart" before they can repent, I don't know if they are able to grasp such a huge concept at so early an age. If they can, that's great, but once they figure that out they must know the next step is repenting and baptizing.

In scripture, we are not given the okay to baptize infants, even though some denominations practice such a thing. When one is baptized that is a decision that person makes--no one can make it for them, not even the parents. And I am not so sure that kids up to a certain age understand that. I fully believe that we should be teaching them God and His word as early as possible but it would take a long time for many of them to understand that.

I know when I was younger, I didn't truly understand sinning--against God--and needed to be cleansed of my sins, baptizing, until I was in my teens. Yes, I was being taught this but I had to actually start reading scripture on my own, seeking God to finally get to the point where I knew I needed to repent and be baptized for my sins. Now, I'm not trying to put myself as an example and say "see obviously it means their is an age of accountability" but if each person is honest with themselves and really think back, you can see, that it took a process of a long time before we understood the idea of sinning and repenting against God. Older people have a hard time understanding it, I can't imagine little kids trying to understand it at their age when sometimes they can't even really process logic and reasoning.

And I also think it's important that we realize that scripture does not speak of little kids coming to God and repenting but that it is either older children (like Joseph, David, Solomon, Timothy, etc--where scripture describes them as youthful). Some people mature faster than others.

But do I see that the scripture fully say "age of accountability", no we don't have those words in there. I can't say for certain that there is such a thing, but I think we should be fully aware of how Christ viewed little kids.

Matthew 19:12-15
Then little children were brought to Him that He might put His hands on them and pray, but the disciples rebuked them. But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven.” And He laid His hands on them and departed from there.

Mark 9:34-37
But they kept silent, for on the road they had disputed among themselves who would be the greatest. And He sat down, called the twelve, and said to them, “If anyone desires to be first, he shall be last of all and servant of all.” Then He took a little child and set him in the midst of them. And when He had taken him in His arms, He said to them, “Whoever receives one of these little children in My name receives Me; and whoever receives Me, receives not Me but Him who sent Me.”

Mark 10:13-15 (Parallel to Matthew)
Then they brought little children to Him, that He might touch them; but the disciples rebuked those who brought them. But when Jesus saw it, He was greatly displeased and said to them, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God. Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it.”
​

In such cases, I think it's also really important to know that God is judge of the world and He'll judge accurately on who is going to heaven or hell because He knows the true heart of a person, both little kids and adults.

 

[solarwave]

The question is simple...is Christ the only way or not. Obvious to most, he is not the only way.

It depends what you mean by Christ being the only way.

If you mean that all people who are saved are saved through Christ then yes. If you mean that only those who have heard certain facts about a jewish man called Jesus then I would say no. Doesn't that change being saved by grace through faith into, faith by knowledge, or upbringing, or culture?

For those in countries of other religion doesn't it become a less a good news and more a new of death for country? Does God show favoritism towards the western countries?

Christ died to save us from sin, yet some children are not old enough to understand sin. Should we believe that Love Himself would condemn those who never had a chance or that Love gives grace to us, but not only us but also the whole world?

If Christ is the gate to salvation is it not possible to walk though a gate without knowledge of the gate? Christ is good news to the many not the few.

 

[S.O.C]

Logic does not dictate that drinking is always wrong, so your demonstration fails. Logic dictates that drinking should be done while considering what one can and cannot handle, and similarly logic dictates looking at context and the meaning of passages in the Bible rather than reading into those passages in favor of viewing a merciful God.


Except that to say that God doesn't send people to hell up to a certain age is nothing but an assumption. You do not know and cannot know that for certain. The Bible doesn't make it clear. Claiming that an age of accountability exists when there is no biblical support for that claim is nothing short of adding to the Bible. Saying that you can suppose that an age of accountability exists from what the Bible doesn't say is nothing short of an argument from silence, which is a logical fallacy.


It is quite clear. You cannot go to heaven without knowing Jesus in some way. Old Testament saints did know Jesus: they knew that God saves people, and without Him they are hopelessly lost. They knew quite well the concept of Jesus.

Unfortunately, I only have time to comment on one of your debates (Drinking).
I have already proven by scripture that drinking alcohol leads to Sin and you have already agreed that it does but according to your theory that is only if one is intoxicated or drunk and does not know their limitation. You have stated that there is a limitation to drinking for each person that does not lead to Sin and people should know these limitations....correct? So based on your theory let me ask a question.
Following your logical premise. If old testament saints (who obviously did not know their alcohol limitations based on your theory, since they were intoxicated and not just buzzed), If they had YOUR ability to known exactly how much alcohol their bodies was capable of handling before their intake of those alcohol Toxins exceeded their livers capacity to filter out the amount of alcohol toxins being absorbed; they would have prevented the excess spillage of excess Toxins into their blood stream and in return would have prevented excess toxic blood from going directly to their brains and other organs in the bodies that impaired their; judgment, thought process, sensory, motor function, hand to eye coordination, speech process, etc..., and in theory had they known what you know about drinking this could have keep them from sinning like you?
Just for the record, I had an uncle that knew how to handle his drinking, he was an X-Marine; he drank a 24 pack of Michelob and a 5th of whiskey every morning before noon! And you could not even tell the man had been drinking except for the odor on his breath than he would go to the bar and get "drunk" as you put it. Again a 24pk of beer and 5th of whisky and he could walk straight as an arrow and acted as normal as anyone not drinking, well he died from a toxic liver. So, I think you need to be wise in your own conceits. If you say drinking does not lead to sin but getting intoxicated does than that is like saying if a person know their limitation of heroin intake and they only take a small amount of heroin and not the whole rock because they know their limitations than they are not sinning as opposed to someone who does the whole rock and does not know their limitation.

Our bodies are the temple of God; alcohol is a toxic (poison) substance to our bodies either in small or large moderations it does not matter. The liver can process about 0.6 ounces in one hour which equates to less than one beer an hour but regardless of how much a liver can process a person who is putting toxic garbage in their body if they have been in fact Saved than they are purposely destroying the temple of God! In small moderations. Now you can side step this all you want or try to justify your position on drinking, I am not here to judge anyone, I have done my share of drinking before I was saved but drinking in any moderation is sin. Ask yourself this question; does drinking in any amount of consumption glorify the spirit of God that is in a believer? How does it make you a better; husband, friend, Christian, father, etc...? If it does not add to your faith than what purpose does it serve for God?

"But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin... Rom 14:23"

 

[S.O.C]

Acts 17:24-31

The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, nor is He served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since He Himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. And He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward Him and find Him. Yet He is actually not far from each one of us, for

"'In Him we live and move and have our being';
as even some of your own poets have said,
"'For we are indeed His offspring.'

Being then God’s offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man. The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now He commands all people everywhere to repent, because He has fixed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom He has appointed; and of this He has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead."​

All man will be judged based on His words. If we have not been obedient to it, then yes, He will punish us. And if we know of someone who have not heard then it is us to us to teach them. We can't sit there and say "How is it that God will send those to hell who have not heard?" If we know someone have not heard, then obviously He is telling us that we must be the ones to spread His word.

And in fact, He tells the Apostles and I'm sure it goes to everyone of us, that they are to spread the word to everyone on earth. If people choose not to listen, that's their choice but we can't bury our heads and not say anything and yet still tell ourselves that God will not judge them. That wouldn't even make sense for Christ to die, if the punishment of sin was not that serious.

Right ON !

 

[Zebra1552]

SOC, if you wish to continue the discussion on alcohol, go to this thread.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Okay. How about if a person has never had the chance to hear about God, but all he has done his whole life are the most evil things you can imagine, breaking every single rule in the Bible. Does he gets to go to heaven?

While the bible does speak of eternal punishment for non-believers, we also believe in the mercy of our everlasting father. Those who have not had the opportunity to hear the message are not necessarily people who have rejected Christ.

Those who have rejected Christ will for sure suffer eternal punishment.

As to the rest, we leave that in God's hands.

For the moment, we strive at spreading the gospel as far out as we can. With all the new technology at our fingertips, it's getting easier, but itchy ears don't necessarily want to hear the good news.

 

[S.O.C]

No, send all the children to hell.

You can't be serious, even if your trying to joke sending all children to hell is not funny! God does not want anyone to perish but some have made that choice for theirselves. Infants and small children that die never have that choice. if "send all the children to hell" is truly your perspective than you are obviously on the wrong forum. This is the Christian forums!

 

[PreachersWife2004]

You can't be serious, even if your trying to joke sending all children to hell is not funny! God does not want anyone to perish but some have made that choice for theirselves. Infants and small children that die never have that choice. if "send all the children to hell" is truly your perspective than you are obviously on the wrong forum. This is the Christian forums!

be careful making statements like that. We don't "choose" Christ, he chooses us. To say that infants and small children don't have that choice means, logically, that you believe we should kill them while they're young so that they'll automatically go to heaven.

 

[S.O.C]

be careful making statements like that. We don't "choose" Christ, he chooses us. To say that infants and small children don't have that choice means, logically, that you believe we should kill them while they're young so that they'll automatically go to heaven.

So you don't believe in free will? Do we not come to faith by Gods grace? And if so were we not given as recipients of free will the choice to accept or reject salvation? if an Infants even lives long enough to hear speech or sound it stil has not developed the ability to understand words let alone the Word which is the message of salvation to all who believe. If it can't comprehend than you neiieher believe or disbelieve. They do not have the choice to accept/reject the gospel because God for reasons only known to God has decided it so. It's one thing to say infants and small children whose minds are undevelope; therefore, they will not go to hell for rejecting the Gospal but its a far cry from that to say we should kill infants so they go to heaven! I have neither the power to create life or take it away. I can play a part in the process but it is Gods sovereignty that allows all good and bad things to happen.

 

[Zebra1552]

So you don't believe in free will? Do we not come to faith by Gods grace? And if so were we not given as recipients of free will the choice to accept or reject salvation?

Earlier, you stated that there is an age of accountability, which means God does not allow people up to a certain age to have free will. Don't talk to her about free will while ignoring the consequences of your own statements.

if an Infants even lives long enough to hear speech or sound it stil has not developed the ability to understand words let alone the Word which is the message of salvation to all who believe. If it can't comprehend than you neiieher believe or disbelieve. They do not have the choice to accept/reject the gospel because God for reasons only known to God has decided it so. It's one thing to say infants and small children whose minds are undevelope; therefore, they will not go to hell for rejecting the Gospal but its a far cry from that to say we should kill infants so they go to heaven!

John 3:18 Those who believe in him are not condemned; but those who do not believe are condemned already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Either you believe, or you do not believe. There is no middle ground. And once again, you are claiming that you know for a fact what happens to these people when none of us know. The Bible doesn't tell us. Speculating is useless.

I have neither the power to create life or take it away.

You most certainly do have that power. Anyone can kill or have a hand in creating life, no matter what species.

I can play a part in the process but it is Gods sovereignty that allows all good and bad things to happen.

Then why did God allow the fall?