Can someone educate me?

[sentipente]

I think I'm not following you. Why do you conclude that God did not adopt us? What is your take on Galatians 4 and Ephesians 1? Just hoping to better understand your take on this.

BFA

You can't adopt your own child. We are assuming that you accept the story of Creation so that all humans were created by the God we are discussing here.

 

[Avonia]

I think the pont was that, according to #13 and #14, all are equal, but some are more equal than others. Do you have a comment on that point?
BFA

To be clear, I'm not taking a cut at the Seventh-day Adventist 28 fundamental beliefs. They are just fine as long as we look at them for what they are - beliefs.

I'm pointing out the tension we hold between being inclusive and exclusive.

 

[moicherie]

How can you adopt your own creation? When your children are bad do you give them for adoption then readopt them when they are good? Do they stop being your children, so why do we think God does this?

 

[StormyOne]

How can you adopt your own creation? When your children are bad do you give them for adoption then readopt them when they are good? Do they stop being your children, so why do we think God does this?

Some are not ready to grasp this simple truth... because the "bible" says we were adopted it must be true... so some people in 2008 have allowed 1st century concepts to dictate what they think here and now.... As if Paul (the assumption being Paul wrote Galatians) was the expert on who belongs to God and who does not.....

Once more, if there is One God and he created everything, then everything he created belongs to him... All humans belong to God.... and yes the bible can be wrong....

 

[Drwhat]

Hi By faithalone1,
Sorry but I don't agree with any of those 5 statements, because there are no scriptures to back any of them up. Plus God cannot ever be classified and contained into statements of faith, it is the entire SUM of Gods word that has to be considered in spiritual matters and not just SOME (Psalm 139:17). God bless.

 

[Avonia]

Hi By faithalone1,
Sorry but I don't agree with any of those 5 statements, because there is no scriptures to back any of them up. Plus God cannot ever be classified and contained into statements of faith, it is the entire sum of Gods word that has to be considered in spiritual matters (Psalm 139:17). God bless.

How can you look at "the sum" and reject a part? This is a reciprocal error to the one most common in Adventism.

Looking at one part and not the Whole is just as lacking as not seeing the Whole in any one part.

Welcome to the conversation!

 

[sentipente]

Hi By faithalone1,
Sorry but I don't agree with any of those 5 statements, because there are no scriptures to back any of them up. Plus God cannot ever be classified and contained into statements of faith, it is the entire SUM of Gods word that has to be considered in spiritual matters and not just SOME (Psalm 139:17). God bless.

But you violated your principle by quoting only a part of a part of the entire SUM (Psalm 139:17).

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Some are not ready to grasp this simple truth... because the "bible" says we were adopted it must be true... so some people in 2008 have allowed 1st century concepts to dictate what they think here and now.... As if Paul (the assumption being Paul wrote Galatians) was the expert on who belongs to God and who does not.....

Once more, if there is One God and he created everything, then everything he created belongs to him... All humans belong to God.... and yes the bible can be wrong....

If the Bible is not the basis of our understanding on this subject, then why should we even conclude that we were created by God at all? We both know that there are alternate theories. Why not simply accept one of the alternate theories? If the Bible is not the basis of our conclusion on the subject of creation, isn't it my word against Darwin's?

As a side note, I wonder whether the concept of "adoption" could be more closely compared to the concept of "kinsman redeemer" found in the book of Ruth.

Although I appreciate the clarification of your position, I notice that we're getting a bit off topic. My purpose in this thread is not to debate your position, but simply to better understand it. Do you (or anyone else) have any other thoughts or concerns regarding fundamental beliefs #11-15?

BFA

 

[StormyOne]

If the Bible is not the basis of our understanding on this subject, then why should we even conclude that we were created by God at all? We both know that there are alternate theories. Why not simply accept one of the alternate theories? If the Bible is not the basis of our conclusion on the subject of creation, isn't it my word against Darwin's?

As a side note, I wonder whether the concept of "adoption" could be more closely compared to the concept of "kinsman redeemer" found in the book of Ruth.

Although I appreciate the clarification of your position, I notice that we're getting a bit off topic. My purpose in this thread is not to debate your position, but simply to better understand it. Do you (or anyone else) have any other thoughts or concerns regarding fundamental beliefs #11-15?

BFA

there is one definite fact that we can agree on; God created. Whatever he created belongs to him. That's the part you might be having trouble with, and thats fine..... as for the fundies 11-15 each have their own problems.... again they are comprised of theobabble and meaningless phrases.... one example; if one believes God is everywhere, then the purpose of gathering in a church once a week to "worship" him makes no sense.....

 

[Byfaithalone1]

there is one definite fact that we can agree on; God created.

Why should we agree on that? If it isn't necessary for our positions to be consistent with Scripture, we could just as easily conclude that God created the first piece of matter and that everything simply evolved from there. We could conclude that humanity is merely an accident, and that the existence of man is not really evidence of intelligent design.

Whatever he created belongs to him.

How do we know what He created? What is the basis upon which we could determine that?

That's the part you might be having trouble with, and thats fine.

It is. But I won't belabor the point. I continue to appreciate your time in helping me understand your position.

.... as for the fundies 11-15 each have their own problems.... again they are comprised of theobabble and meaningless phrases.... one example; if one believes God is everywhere, then the purpose of gathering in a church once a week to "worship" him makes no sense.....

Agreed. Although I personally see value in the fellowship of believers, one could hardly conclude that God is concerned with the gathering of believers on one specific day vs. another or in one specific place vs. another (however, I may be getting ahead of myself as we haven't yet tackled the subject of the "sabbath").

BFA

 

[StormyOne]

Why should we agree on that? If it isn't necessary for our positions to be consistent with Scripture, we could just as easily conclude that God created the first piece of matter and that everything simply evolved from there. We could conclude that humanity is merely an accident, and that the existence of man is not really evidence of intelligent design.



How do we know what He created? What is the basis upon which we could determine that?



It is. But I won't belabor the point. I continue to appreciate your time in helping me understand your position.



Agreed. Although I personally see value in the fellowship of believers, one could hardly conclude that God is concerned with the gathering of believers on one specific day vs. another or in one specific place vs. another (however, I may be getting ahead of myself as we haven't yet tackled the subject of the "sabbath").

BFA

You are correct... let me revise my statement for clarification. I believe God created. I believe he created humans therefore humans are his children. What you believe and/or conclude if you are comfortable with it, you will get no argument from me. Likewise for you scripture may be the supreme authority, but I do not share that view.....

Lastly, there is no value in spending time with people who refuse to accept or acknowledge where I am in my journey. If that time is simply spent with them attempting to get me to conform with their views, I'll pass on that type of fellowship.....

 

[sentipente]

If the Bible is not the basis of our understanding on this subject, then why should we even conclude that we were created by God at all?

It could be because Nature is the only book the Creator wrote, nevermind what theologians claim about the bible. Why we would substitute a later claimant for the original is astounding.

 

[moicherie]

Once more, if there is One God and he created everything, then everything he created belongs to him... All humans belong to God.... and yes the bible can be wrong....

And hence Christianitys dilemma, it has taken the writings of first century disciples written for first century Christians who had no idea their work would still be read in 2008 because as far as they were concerned Jesus was coming for them in their time. And it decided their worldview was to be totally accepted forever with no questions asked. If we did that with other aspects of life we would never make new discoveries.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

You are correct... let me revise my statement for clarification. I believe God created. I believe he created humans therefore humans are his children.

As you might suspect, we share this belief. However, I'm beginning to understand that we may have taken a different path to arrive at this conclusion.

Likewise for you scripture may be the supreme authority, but I do not share that view.....

My position (if you're interested in it at all) is that Scripture is authoritative, not that it is the supreme authority. God is the supreme authority. The Scriptures are but one way to know God. Can you help me understand the ways in which our perspectives might be different on this subject?

Lastly, there is no value in spending time with people who refuse to accept or acknowledge where I am in my journey.

Hopefully, you are beginning to notice that I don't know where you are in your journey. That is why I am asking questions. You have been very patient with my questions, and I do appreciate that.

If that time is simply spent with them attempting to get me to conform with their views, I'll pass on that type of fellowship.....

I really don't think my intent in this thread has been to try to get you to conform with my views. I have noted in passing the ways in which our perspectives have been different on certain issues, and I've also noted the ways in which our perspectives are quite similar. I hope that you aren't reading nefarious motives in my posts, because I truly have none. Some of the ideas that you're throwing out are unlike anything I have ever heard from progressive SDAs before, and I'm genuinely trying to understand. In my attempts to understand, I may ask follow-up questions and I may express my perspective on the subject so I can better understand the ways in which we agree and disagree. All of this helps me to gain a broader perspective on your understanding and the path that you took to get to that understanding. You'll note that I have not been dogmatic. In fact, I believe this side discussion began when I asked for your perspective on Galatians 4 and Ephesians 1. If you interpreted something inappropriate or sadistic from that question, please know that it was not my intent to cause offense.

Hopefully, you are still open to exploring these topics with me. I appreciate your time.

BFA

 

[StormyOne]

BFA you are fine, I am not suggesting that you have ulterior motives, I was speaking generically, not you specifically.....I agree that the bible is one way to find out about God... there are other ways... ask away, I am enjoying the dialog....

 

[Byfaithalone1]

BFA you are fine, I am not suggesting that you have ulterior motives, I was speaking generically, not you specifically.....I agree that the bible is one way to find out about God... there are other ways... ask away, I am enjoying the dialog....

We are getting to some of the more controversial SDA fundamentals, so I'd like to begin to take them one at a time. Can we discuss fundamental #16?

"By His death on the cross Jesus triumphed over the forces of evil. He who subjugated the demonic spirits during His earthly ministry has broken their power and made certain their ultimate doom. Jesus' victory gives us victory over the evil forces that still seek to control us, as we walk with Him in peace, joy, and assurance of His love. Now the Holy Spirit dwells within us and empowers us. Continually committed to Jesus as our Saviour and Lord, we are set free from the burden of our past deeds. No longer do we live in the darkness, fear of evil powers, ignorance, and meaninglessness of our former way of life. In this new freedom in Jesus, we are called to grow into the likeness of His character, communing with Him daily in prayer, feeding on His Word, meditating on it and on His providence, singing His praises, gathering together for worship, and participating in the mission of the Church. As we give ourselves in loving service to those around us and in witnessing to His salvation, His constant presence with us through the Spirit transforms every moment and every task into a spiritual experience."
​

I have some specific questions about this one:

Q1: Do you believe that the freedom that Jesus offers is given for the purpose of growing into the likeness of His character? If so, why?

Q2: Do you believe that man is actually becoming more like God? If so, how is that demonstrated? Does man become less sinful over time?

Q3: Is it God's desire that every task become a spiritual experience?

Q4: Do you have any other specific thoughts regarding FB #16?
​

BFA

 

[Avonia]

Q3: Is it God's desire that every task become a spiritual experience?

The word "spiritual" covers a broad territory if you start asking people what it means to them.

I look at creation as a spectrum of densities. As the vibration of a thing goes up, it moves up. Ascension.

One way to phrase this is that we are aspects of God that flew down into great density, and now we are working our way back up. (Jacobs Ladder)

 

[StormyOne]

Q1: Do you believe that the freedom that Jesus offers is given for the purpose of growing into the likeness of His character? If so, why?

what is freedom? I think that those who are followers will have certain traits, i.e. love for others, compassion for others, wanting justice for others....

Q2: Do you believe that man is actually becoming more like God? If so, how is that demonstrated? Does man become less sinful over time?

What does that mean, more like God? Who knows what God is like? Less sinful? Compared to? How would a person know? There are some assumptions built into the question as posed that I don't know I agree with....

Q3: Is it God's desire that every task become a spiritual experience?

What does that mean "a spiritual experience?" God is a spirit, we are not. I do not subscribe to the idea that humans are composed of mind, body and spirit.

Q4: Do you have any other specific thoughts regarding FB #16?

No not particularly other than it is more meaningless phrases and vague terminology....

 

[Byfaithalone1]

The word "spiritual" covers a broad territory if you start asking people what it means to them.

I look at creation as a spectrum of densities. As the vibration of a thing goes up, it moves up. Ascension.

One way to phrase this is that we are aspects of God that flew down into great density, and now we are working our way back up. (Jacobs Ladder)

Any answer to Q1, Q2 or Q4?

BFA

 

[Byfaithalone1]

I think that those who are followers will have certain traits, i.e. love for others, compassion for others, wanting justice for others....

Can we safely say that such persons are "growing into the likeness of His character?" I don't know that I can say that.

What does that mean, more like God? Who knows what God is like? Less sinful? Compared to? How would a person know? There are some assumptions built into the question as posed that I don't know I agree with....

I agree completely. That's why I asked the questions. I think the questions you raised above are some of the same questions I have and it seems that you may sense some of the same assumptions that I also sense when I read FB #16. We may have a similar perspective on this issue.

What does that mean "a spiritual experience?" God is a spirit, we are not.

My point exactly.

BFA