Can someone be evil and righteous?

[BrotherJJ]

OTE="salt-n-light, post: 75081308, member: 400942"]My sister and I had a discussion on the meaning of "good" and "evil" vs. "righteous" and
"unrighteous"

My sister stance is that we are all evil but through Jesus and receiving the Holy Spirit be made righteous. You are still evil even after be made righteous. You can be both at the same time

My stance is that we are all evil but through Jesus and receiving the Holy Spirit be made righteous. But if you are righteous you are made clean, you are no longer evil. If you are evil you can't be righteous.You can't be both at the same time.

We both agree that no one is good, but our understanding of evil is different. I read it as if you're calling someone evil you're pronouncing a judgement that may not be true. She's saying that its a judgement we already have from birth and its just reiterating the truth.

If anyone can provide clarity with scriptures that would be awesome.[/QUOTE]

Using a simple search tool 71 NT verses came up on righteousness. I listed a few & I believe they agree with your sisters view.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
(NOTE: Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us)

1 Tim 1:9 God saved us, & called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, according to his own purpose & grace, which was given us "in Christ" before the world began
(NOTE: God saved us, not according to our works, according to his own purpose & grace, which was given us "in Christ")

Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
(NOTE: Righteousness is imputed not earned)

Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
(NOTE: Righteousness is imputed not earned)

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.
(NOTE: Righteousness is a gift from God. A gift is given not earned)

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
(NOTE: It's our faith placed in Christ's righteousness whereby we are justified/saved)

2 Cor 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
(NOTE: We become the righteousness of God thru faith in Christs works)

1 Cor 1:30 Because of him that you are "in Christ", who has become for us wisdom from God that is, our righteousness, holiness & redemption
(NOTE: Thru belief in the Christ/Lord our righteousness (Jeremiah 23:6) also comes our holiness & redemption)

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
(NOTE: The righteousness of God is accessed thru the faith "OF" Christ & given to all that trust/believe in Jesus)

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
(NOTE: Its thru His righteous work at Calvary & our faith place in them whereby we receice remission/forgiveness/pardon from sin)

The bad news: Even though we are covered/sealed via His indwelling Holy Spirit with/in His righteousness, We will have & struggle with, our evil Adamic sin nature until we die.

The good news: A future crown of righteousness awaits:

2 Tim 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. Best wishes, BrotherJJ.

 

[A_JAY]

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[eleos1954]

good or evil ... it's what one chooses and we have choices daily. I would say evil is sin .... and do we (as christians) sin? .... yes we do ... so we have the capacity to be either at any time ... Jesus helps us overcome sin ... therefore helps us overcome evil (being sinful).

Luther said we were Saint and Sinner at the same time.

I would agree with that.

Also ... the apostle Paul put it this way ....

Romans 7

Struggling with Sin

13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? Certainly not! But in order that sin might be exposed as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do, I do not do. But what I hate, I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I admit that the law is good. 17In that case, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh; for I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want to do. Instead, I keep on doing the evil I do not want to do. 20And if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.21So this is the principle I have discovered: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God’s law. 23But I see another law at work in my body, warring against the law of my mind and holding me captive to the law of sin that dwells within me.b24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?

25Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with my mind I serve the law of God, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

Righteousness is an attribute of moral purity belonging to God alone (John 17:25). It is He alone who is truly righteous. No one in the world is righteous in the eyes of the Lord, that is, except the Christian.

We are counted righteous (even though we are not) in the eyes of God when we receive Jesus by faith (Phil. 3:9). Our righteousness is based on what Jesus did on the cross.

The righteousness that was Christ’s is counted to us. We, then, are seen as righteous in the eyes of God. Though we are actually worthy of damnation, we are made righteous (Is. 61:10) by Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross. As a result, will spend eternity in the presence of the holy, pure, loving, kind, gentle, and righteous God. Our righteousness.

 

[lsume]

My sister and I had a discussion on the meaning of "good" and "evil" vs. "righteous" and
"unrighteous"

My sister stance is that we are all evil but through Jesus and receiving the Holy Spirit be made righteous. You are still evil even after be made righteous. You can be both at the same time

My stance is that we are all evil but through Jesus and receiving the Holy Spirit be made righteous. But if you are righteous you are made clean, you are no longer evil. If you are evil you can't be righteous.You can't be both at the same time.

We both agree that no one is good, but our understanding of evil is different. I read it as if you're calling someone evil you're pronouncing a judgement that may not be true. She's saying that its a judgement we already have from birth and its just reiterating the truth.

If anyone can provide clarity with scriptures that would be awesome.

There is a time when you must be born again. Only through Christ can anyone understand what that means. If one seeks with Truth they will find It. I pray that you find The Truth.

 

[Aussie Pete]

My sister and I had a discussion on the meaning of "good" and "evil" vs. "righteous" and
"unrighteous"

My sister stance is that we are all evil but through Jesus and receiving the Holy Spirit be made righteous. You are still evil even after be made righteous. You can be both at the same time

My stance is that we are all evil but through Jesus and receiving the Holy Spirit be made righteous. But if you are righteous you are made clean, you are no longer evil. If you are evil you can't be righteous.You can't be both at the same time.

We both agree that no one is good, but our understanding of evil is different. I read it as if you're calling someone evil you're pronouncing a judgement that may not be true. She's saying that its a judgement we already have from birth and its just reiterating the truth.

If anyone can provide clarity with scriptures that would be awesome.

The human being is tripartite. We are spirit, soul and body. Adam had a neutral spirit which was empty. He had life in his soul which is called natural life (1 Corinthians 2:14). Adam was neither good nor evil.

God deliberately made man incomplete. Man was given only one prohibition. He was given complete freedom, apart from eating at the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. There was also the tree of life. Both were in the middle of the garden.

Man could have eaten from the tree of life. He would have been completed according to God's will. (Genesis 3:22 & 23 implied.) Instead he ate from the knowledge tree and died instantly. His death was not physical or the end of existence. His spirit and soul became dead to God. His spirit remained incomplete but defiled. God could no longer dwell there. His natural life became blinded to God and God's ways. His nature became sinful. We do not become sinners because we sin. We sin because we are sinners by nature.

The person who is born again has a new spirit which is alive to God, clean and fit for God to live in. However, the natural life in the soul is unchanged. So Christians have a dual nature, which is what Jesus meant by denying yourself, taking up your cross and following Him. The life in the soul is not changed. It is to be crucified daily. The real life of the Christian is now in his/her spirit.

So a part of us is perfectly righteous, holy and pure (1 John 3:9 and so on). The main reason we do not live righteously is a lack of knowledge. Unless and until we realise that we cannot live the Christian life by our own striving, we will live a life of failure and defeat. Once we quit trying and start trusting, we will make progress. Please note that it is not automatic. As Adam had to choose, so do we. It's a daily choice - self will, self love, self effort? Or God's will, God's love and God's power? The former leads to defeat, failure and dead works. The latter leads to joy, peace, and works that abide for eternity.

 

[Phil W]

My sister and I had a discussion on the meaning of "good" and "evil" vs. "righteous" and
"unrighteous"
My sister stance is that we are all evil but through Jesus and receiving the Holy Spirit be made righteous.
You are still evil even after be made righteous. You can be both at the same time

She has forgotten about the miracle of rebirth.
Our old evil self has to die before that happens, and God has given us the tools to accomplish it.
Here is how it is done..."
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

My stance is that we are all evil but through Jesus and receiving the Holy Spirit be made righteous. But if you are righteous you are made clean, you are no longer evil. If you are evil you can't be righteous.You can't be both at the same time.

I agree.

We both agree that no one is good, but our understanding of evil is different. I read it as if you're calling someone evil you're pronouncing a judgement that may not be true. She's saying that its a judgement we already have from birth and its just reiterating the truth.

If, unfortunately, you both agree that "no one is good", what is the point of arguing?
Until you realize we don't have to be evil anymore, (since Jesus conquered sin while in the flesh,) you will both continue to walk the road of darkness.

If anyone can provide clarity with scriptures that would be awesome.

It is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
No flesh focused mind, no vile affections, and no lusts equals a truly righteous person.
Peter writes..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; (1 Peter 4:1)
John writes..."We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not." (1 John 5:18)

I pray you will both continue your search for the truth...and be wise enough not to fall for those doctrines that accommodate sin.

 

[DebbieJ]

My sister stance is that we are all evil but through Jesus and receiving the Holy Spirit be made righteous. You are still evil even after be made righteous. You can be both at the same time

I agree with your sister. We are still in the flesh, therefore are still sinners as we struggle with it daily. On the other hand, we are made righteous because of Christ. We are both. When we leave earth for heaven, no longer in the flesh, that's the only time we are no longer both, but one - righteous and sinless.

 

[Neogaia777]

Whatever words you want to use, we are both, some less so, some more so, but with an inability to judge, lest we ever forget that, etc, but we are both, etc, until we leave this world of both, etc, or this world is changed that is both, etc, cause until then, etc, we are both, etc, some less so, some more so, etc, etc, etc, with an inability to tell or judge between both, etc, or who is less or more so between both, etc, as an added consequence of being in this world of both, etc, lest we ever forget that, etc, until we leave this world of both or this world changes that is both, etc...

God Bless!

 

[A_JAY]

I associate evil with Hitler, Dr Mengele, serial killers, Pol Pot. A totally different category

 

[A_JAY]

guess what I'm wrestling with is where does it end, since no one can enter into God's Kingdom as a saint and sinner, one must be prevailing the other no? And do I have that authority to call one "evil" or "righteous" since unless I see their fruits, I don't know the heart of man.

salt:"And do I have that authority to call one "evil" or "righteous" since unless I see their fruits, I don't know the heart of man?"

Tricky question. Look at Ephesians 2:8-9 for fruits. But no that's not our job. Let God do it. Check out Romans 2:1-3. Paul is saying that if we judge others then we are doing it too. Just let God judge.

Be aware of evil. Ask Jesus to deliver us from evil. But judging can lead to haughtiness and pride.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

For the one who is Born Again
the Holy Spirit will point out to us
evil deeds and thoughts that we have
and bring us to repentance.

Far from ever being perfect but,
desiring that perfection
humbles us daily
drives us closer to Christ
as we realize that
the flesh is starting to stink.

We once enjoyed the smell of sin
knowing now that we were deceived.

M

 

[salt-n-light]

salt:"And do I have that authority to call one "evil" or "righteous" since unless I see their fruits, I don't know the heart of man?"

Tricky question. Look at Ephesians 2:8-9 for fruits. But no that's not our job. Let God do it. Check out Romans 2:1-3. Paul is saying that if we judge others then we are doing it too. Just let God judge.

Be aware of evil. Ask Jesus to deliver us from evil. But judging can lead to haughtiness and pride.

That's why I couldn't grapple with saying that someone is evil. Although it basically true due to our sinful nature, even if I said it in my mind, I didn't think I had authority to say it.

 

[A_JAY]

God's Blessings to you.

 

[alan650]

I think the Bible is very clear that we will always be fighting with our sin nature until the day we die. Labeling it "good vs evil" in the lens of looking at others can be both helpful and harmful at times. I think if we are approaching people we all have inherent knowledge that we are all capable of sinful behaviors. We'd be lying to ourselves if we said we have no sin just like John says. There are definitely people who are overall evil and Hitler and unrepentant serial killers come to mind. However, in our day to day life, we should have mercy to others knowing they are sinful imperfect people, whether they are a Christian or not. We all need grace from God on a daily basis.

 

[Rachel20]

We're not yet righteous, but we're accounted as righteous just as Abraham was when he believed God. For now, we still struggle against sin, which Paul described in Romans 7:21-25 -

I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

The tenses of salvation in scripture - saved, being saved, will be saved:

Justification = saved from the penalty of sin = past event when you're first saved.
Sanctification = saved from the power of sin = continual struggle against sin inorder to be set apart to God in this life (what Paul was describing).
Glorification = saved from the presence of sin = future event when we pass from this life into God's presence.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

My sister and I had a discussion on the meaning of "good" and "evil" vs. "righteous" and
"unrighteous"

My sister stance is that we are all evil but through Jesus and receiving the Holy Spirit be made righteous. You are still evil even after be made righteous. You can be both at the same time

My stance is that we are all evil but through Jesus and receiving the Holy Spirit be made righteous. But if you are righteous you are made clean, you are no longer evil. If you are evil you can't be righteous.You can't be both at the same time.

We both agree that no one is good, but our understanding of evil is different. I read it as if you're calling someone evil you're pronouncing a judgement that may not be true. She's saying that its a judgement we already have from birth and its just reiterating the truth.

If anyone can provide clarity with scriptures that would be awesome.

Evil can be both an action or it can be a state of being. When we become born again we receive His Holy Spirit that changes the inner man thus we are made righteous before Him. However, we are still in the flesh so we still have the potential to commit evil. Be blessed.

 

[timothyu]

Evil is evil whether one takes over nations and executes millions or simply covets a neighbour's wife or lusts for possessions. We are all equally sinners. That concept is lost when we focus instead on the degree of sin. We begin to see ourselves as good while labelling others as bad, the ol' redefining good and evil ploy. Putting our will, our desires ahead of letting God use His will through us all has the same damaging affect. This is why God says what we do to others, we do to ourselves because God is seeing the big picture of 'sin' rather than the individual action. Everyone puts their will first and seeks gain often at the expense of others. The 10 Commandments and Jesus' 2, make that clear.

 

[Phil W]

That's why I couldn't grapple with saying that someone is evil. Although it basically true due to our sinful nature, even if I said it in my mind, I didn't think I had authority to say it.

What sin nature?
We are supposed to be new creatures with divine natures after rebirth.
It is written..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Cor 5:17)
Don't ignore what is written, in favor of an argument that accommodates evil.

 

[Behold]

My sister and I had a discussion on the meaning of "good" and "evil" vs. "righteous" and
"unrighteous"

My sister stance is that we are all evil but through Jesus and receiving the Holy Spirit be made righteous. You are still evil even after be made righteous. You can be both at the same time

My stance is that we are all evil but through Jesus and receiving the Holy Spirit be made righteous. But if you are righteous you are made clean, you are no longer evil. If you are evil you can't be righteous.You can't be both at the same time.

We both agree that no one is good, but our understanding of evil is different. I read it as if you're calling someone evil you're pronouncing a judgement that may not be true. She's saying that its a judgement we already have from birth and its just reiterating the truth.

If anyone can provide clarity with scriptures that would be awesome.

Transgression is iniquity and this has to do with doing what the Law and Commandments forbid.

When adam ate the apple, he was not evil before he ate it, but once he ate it his understanding of evil was generated and this understanding creates the desire to do wrong.

The attraction of sin, is that sin attracts, its pulls, it tempts, and because it is in our adamic nature, we obey or we resist, until we are delivered from the power of sin that is the Law.

See, if you didnt know what was wrong, could you do it?
If you had no sin in your head or heart, would you do any?
Its BECAUSE sin, as the knowledge of good vs evil, becomes your mind......this understanding produces behavior that is defined by the Law as good or not.

Evil is the absence of Good. Its the setting aside of the Holy in favor of doing the wrong.
But, you have to know of the wrong to do it, before you can do it....and its the choosing that is what defines your doing.

 

[Phil W]

We're not yet righteous, but we're accounted as righteous just as Abraham was when he believed God. For now, we still struggle against sin, which Paul described in Romans 7:21-25 -
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Rom 7:23's condition is rectified by Rom 8:2..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."

O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Romans 6:24's lament was already addressed by Paul in Rom 6:6..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
Most of Romans 7 is a narrative of Paul's past under the Mosaic Law. It isn't his present condition while writing.
We can truly be righteous now.

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Don't forget that Paul started Rom 7 with this in verse 5..."For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death."
We haven't been in the "flesh" since killing it in Rom 6:3-6.
The results are spelled out in Rom 6:7..."For he that is dead is freed from sin."
Thanks be to God.