Can someone be a ____ and still a Christian?

[General Mung Beans]

Fascism however can often conflict with Christianity, fascism sets one race of people as being more important than others. It does not regard every man as equal and doesn't witness love.

Fascism in itself is not racist actually-just authoritarian. Nazism were not really "authentic" fascists.

 

[StartedAtEly]

Can someone be a Socialist, Communist, or Fascist and still be a Christian? I mean can they be intellectually compatible? To me it reasons that some political ideologies would not line up with Christian moral and practice.

If someone subscribes to a political ideology that is contrary to the teachings of Christ, then one would have to call into question whether they are really Christian or not. I see this all the time in the UK, 'Christians' campaigning aggressively on far-left political causes, then still insisting they are Christian. Bothers me actually

 

[Randy_R]

If someone subscribes to a political ideology that is contrary to the teachings of Christ, then one would have to call into question whether they are really Christian or not. I see this all the time in the UK, 'Christians' campaigning aggressively on far-left political causes, then still insisting they are Christian. Bothers me actually

"..a political ideology that is contrary to the teachings of Christ..." Hmm, that's an interesting idea. Let's see what the Bible says regarding issues.

“If your enemies are hungry, feed them. If they are thirsty, give them something to drink." (Roms 12:20). Neither conservative nor liberal parties consistently give humanitarian aid to their enemies without getting something in return.

"Live in harmony with each other" (Rom 12:16). None of the American political parties are doing very good with this one.

"So anyone who rebels against authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and they will be punished." (Rom 13:2). By default all American parties fail on this one since the country was founded though rebellion against England which was the authority at the time. Also freedom from England could have been done peacefully and through legal means though it would have taken much longer.

"Owe nothing to anyone—except for your obligation to love one another." (Rom 12:8). I think we can safely say all parties have failed this one in spades.

“You have heard the law that says the punishment must match the injury: ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say, do not resist an evil person!" (Mt 5:38-39). Every political party and country breaks this one. This is one reason that as an Anabaptist Christian I don't participate it politics or civil government. As Christians we have a worldview and way of living that goes against the ways of this world - We're in the world but not of it.

“No one can serve two masters. For you will hate one and love the other; you will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.” (Lk 16:13). By definition political parties serve the country and the citizens of that country, not God. Where countries and political parties have interests and ways of conducting themselves that happen to coincide with things that Christ has commanded, it as not because they serve Christ as their only master, but only because that serves their interests at the time. The political parties may have committed Christians in them, but they have to serve all the people Christian and non-Christian and are composed of both Christian and non-Christian, so no country and no political party can be said to be Christian or on Christs side.

These are just a few verses to show that no political party follows the teachings of Christ. Every party and every country do some things that are praiseworthy, and every political party and every country do things that contradict the clear teachings of Christ. We can't take the opinion that any particular party is the true Christian party or that our country (whichever that may be) is more than any other, God's country.

Finally we must remember that our true citizenship is in heaven. Any earthly citizenship we have or any party membership we have must take a distant second at most (Mt 22:37-39; Lk 16:13; Phil 3:20)

 

[sealacamp]

"So anyone who rebels against authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and they will be punished."

Well then all Christians in the first century failed as well since you want to look at biblical quotes out of context. You see Christianity was illegal in the first century and so everyone that was a Christian broke the law. In fact everyone in China and all Muslim countries that are Christian are law breakers as well because being Christian is illegal. So they are all law breakers and rebels as well.

Think about that for awhile and hopefully you can come into the Lords truth instead of your own.

Sealacamp

 

[Randy_R]

Well then all Christians in the first century failed as well since you want to look at biblical quotes out of context. You see Christianity was illegal in the first century and so everyone that was a Christian broke the law. In fact everyone in China and all Muslim countries that are Christian are law breakers as well because being Christian is illegal. So they are all law breakers and rebels as well.

Think about that for awhile and hopefully you can come into the Lords truth instead of your own.

Sealacamp

“We must obey God rather than any human authority." (Acts 5:29).

Obeying God supersedes obeying human authority, so they weren't breaking Rom 13:2 by practicing there faith. They did however obey the meaning of Rom 13:2 in that we never have any evidence of Christians starting a rebellion to overthrow Caesar to found a "Christian Empire".

Also, Christs robe is white, not red, white and blue.

 

[sealacamp]

“We must obey God rather than any human authority." (Acts 5:29).

Obeying God supersedes obeying human authority, so they weren't breaking Rom 13:2 by practicing there faith. They did however obey the meaning of Rom 13:2 in that we never have any evidence of Christians starting a rebellion to overthrow Caesar to found a "Christian Empire".

Also, Christs robe is white, not red, white and blue.

Yeah that is right however you neglected to note that in your previous post. Scripture viewed in isolation can easily be distorted and taken out of context. Christ supports all those who are his no matter what flag the live under. In fact our flag is the Christian flag not the US flag so I really don't know what you are eluding to with your final comment. When we follow God instead of men there are plenty of people who do construe that as rebellion against, whoever, but in this case I will use Ceasar, and that is why so many Christians were put to death. It was not because they were Christians but because their loyalty to Christ made them appear to be rebels to some and they were summarily executed. So to me your previous comments did not appear complete in relation to scripture.

Sealacamp

 

[BondiHarry]

Can someone be a Socialist, Communist, or Fascist and still be a Christian? I mean can they be intellectually compatible? To me it reasons that some political ideologies would not line up with Christian moral and practice.

The answer would be no because the true Christian, although they may find themselves living under such forms of government, will not morally or intellectually support any institution which wars against the precepts of Jesus Christ. Each of these systems make government an object of idolatry, engage in institutionalized theft and encourage covetousness and/or placing one's allegiance to the state.

 

[Randy_R]

Each of these systems make government an object of idolatry, engage in institutionalized theft and encourage covetousness and/or placing one's allegiance to the state.

Sounds like America to me, so someone can't believe in capitalism and be a true Christian?

 

[LBP]

It's a debate that has been fleshed out on other threads, but I happen to believe that capitalism as practiced in America is so far from what Christ was talking about that the characterization of our nation as the "Great Satan" is closer to the mark than the characterization as "God's Country." I also happen to believe that communism (in theory) is almost exactly what Christ was talking about. And my wife, a longtime Communist in the Soviet Union who is now a devout Baptist, agrees. The key problems with Communism as practiced in the Soviet Union were that it was "godless communism" rather than "God-centered communism" and that the ruling elite weren't communists at all -- they were the same greedy, self-centered, exploitive pigs who, human nature being what it is, rise to the top in every economic system. I don't believe there is anything inherently un-Christian at all about communism or socialism. (I had never read Marx before meeting my wife, but he was indeed a genius of sorts; for those who don't know, he had virtually no association with Russia, lived the last 34 years of his life in London, and had to give himself a crash course in Russian even to understand the admirers who latched onto his ideas and began writing to him.)

 

[BondiHarry]

Sounds like America to me, so someone can't believe in capitalism and be a true Christian?

What I am saying is that one can be a Christian and a capitalist but that men who don't know Christ may use the wealth they acquire through capitalism to satisfy the lusts of the flesh rather than using it to help those in need. Plus of course, America is burdened with a government that has stepped far away from its Constitutional and moral foundation and has seriously corrupted our market system.

 

[Randy_R]

The answer would be no because the true Christian, although they may find themselves living under such forms of government, will not morally or intellectually support any institution which wars against the precepts of Jesus Christ. Each of these systems make government an object of idolatry, engage in institutionalized theft and encourage covetousness and/or placing one's allegiance to the state.

Any government system can be an idol, any one can engage in institutional theft, any one can encourage covetousness, and encourage allegiance to the state.

On the other hand socialist and communist governments can be used by Christians as an instrument to help the poor and provide equality to it's citizens. And as far as persecution under communist governments in the past, persecution is good for the church. It gets rid of the wannabe's. Besides, capitalism has far more insidious threats to the People of God than the open persecution in the old communist countries. Finally, it's possible to have a socialist or communist society with freedom of religion just as it's possible to have religious persecution under a capitalist system.

 

[BondiHarry]

Randy, helping the poor with money that has been stolen is immoral and wealth redistribution by coercive means is a foundation of all statist systems. Religious freedom is commendable but so is economic freedom and this latter is always compromised in statist systems. Statism places reliance on fallen men and man is the last place we should place our faith. Capitalism has less potential for harm because in its pure form no one can use coercive means to achieve their goals whereas in statism coercion is an integral part of social interaction.

 

[LBP]

Randy, helping the poor with money that has been stolen is immoral and wealth redistribution by coercive means is a foundation of all statist systems. Religious freedom is commendable but so is economic freedom and this latter is always compromised in statist systems. Statism places reliance on fallen men and man is the last place we should place our faith. Capitalism has less potential for harm because in its pure form no one can use coercive means to achieve their goals whereas in statism coercion is an integral part of social interaction.

This seems to me to be an abstract, fantasy-land sort of perspective. Capitalism is virtually the perfect recipe for bringing out the worst of human nature. To say that "no one can use coercive means" within a capitalistic system is absolutely bizarre, as is any suggestion that capitalism doesn't "place reliance on fallen men." The fact of the matter is that no economic system is going to operate in reality as it is intended in theory, precisely because those who exemplify the worst of human nature will always find a way to corrupt it -- but I still believe that socialism and communism have more potential to create the sort of world of which Jesus would approve than capitalism does.

 

[BondiHarry]

LBP, perhaps you should rely less on how things seem to you and more on how they seem to Jesus by what He has said throughout the Bible. Statism relies not on reason or appealing to the best in men but on brute force (do as we say or you will be fined, imprisoned, denied permission to operate etc). By coercion I am speaking of brute force. Yes, bad people can bring pressure to bear to manipulate others to a desired action in capitalism but as I was suggesting when I spoke of its pure form no capitalist can use actual force or go running to the government and use its power of coercion by proxy. Lacking the ability to use brute force and limited by the corrective action of a free market, bad people have far less ability to manipulate others in capitalism than they can in a statist economic system.

How can free markets bring out the worse in people? To succeed in a free market, one must offer quality products or services at reasonable prices or lose their business to others who will. They must also pay their employess competitive wages and provide suitable working conditions or again they will lose their quality employess to competitors who will. It is when the use of brute force is allowed that the worst in people is brought out. Why work hard to provide for yourself and your family when you can simply use the government to loot the wealth or labor of others to get what you want? Why save adequately for your retirement when you can simply use the government to loot younger workers to get a retirement stipend? Why worry about making foolish choices in how you live when the government is right there to bail you out and lessen the impact of those choices? When men look not to God and His righteousness and wisdom but look instead to the wisdom of men and the un-Biblical institutions they create is when we see the greatest opportunity for the worst that is in men to come out.

 

[LBP]

LBP, perhaps you should rely less on how things seem to you and more on how they seem to Jesus by what He has said throughout the Bible. Statism relies not on reason or appealing to the best in men but on brute force (do as we say or you will be fined, imprisoned, denied permission to operate etc). By coercion I am speaking of brute force. Yes, bad people can bring pressure to bear to manipulate others to a desired action in capitalism but as I was suggesting when I spoke of its pure form no capitalist can use actual force or go running to the government and use its power of coercion by proxy. Lacking the ability to use brute force and limited by the corrective action of a free market, bad people have far less ability to manipulate others in capitalism than they can in a statist economic system.

How can free markets bring out the worse in people? To succeed in a free market, one must offer quality products or services at reasonable prices or lose their business to others who will. They must also pay their employess competitive wages and provide suitable working conditions or again they will lose their quality employess to competitors who will. It is when the use of brute force is allowed that the worst in people is brought out. Why work hard to provide for yourself and your family when you can simply use the government to loot the wealth or labor of others to get what you want? Why save adequately for your retirement when you can simply use the government to loot younger workers to get a retirement stipend? Why worry about making foolish choices in how you live when the government is right there to bail you out and lessen the impact of those choices? When men look not to God and His righteousness and wisdom but look instead to the wisdom of men and the un-Biblical institutions they create is when we see the greatest opportunity for the worst that is in men to come out.

It seems to me that you argue in favor of capitalism in theory, and then criticize "statism" as practiced. The reality is that capitalism is, as I previously stated, almost the perfect vehicle for bringing out the worst in human nature. It would be difficult for me to imagine a society more thoroughly out of touch with Jesus' teachings than the one in which we Americans find ourselves today, which simply perverts Jesus' teachings beyond all recognition - stands them 180 degrees on their heads - and calls this "Christianity." The regimes of Stalin, Hitler and Mao were more brutal, destructive and blatantly evil, but I'm not sure that even they were as corrupting and soul-killing to their citizenry as a whole as the capitalistic one in which we live. Ours is more subtle and, because it calls "Christian" that which is a complete perversion of Christianity, more diabolical IMO. The reality is that any economic system would embody Christian values if the planet were populated by six billion clones of Jesus; but with the planet populated by six billion very flawed humans, all systems end up being in practice caricatures of what they are in theory. All that being said, if the planet were populated by six billion Jesus clones, I believe the end result would look pretty much like communism. When Jesus returns, I doubt He is going to preside over a transformed earth full of Wal-Marts and McDonalds. When Jesus told the Rich Young Ruler to "Sell everything you have and give to the poor," I doubt He really meant "Use your wealth to open a chain of camel franchises and provide minimum-wage jobs to the folks who work for you." (I'm well-aware of the ingenious, albeit unconvincing, ways in which Americans who equate capitalism and Christianity manage to explain away verses such as this. Indeed, the gyrations Americans go through to convince themselves that a complete perversion of Christianity is "God's Country" is precisely what I'm talking about.)

 

[Randy_R]

Randy, helping the poor with money that has been stolen is immoral and wealth redistribution by coercive means is a foundation of all statist systems. Religious freedom is commendable but so is economic freedom and this latter is always compromised in statist systems. Statism places reliance on fallen men and man is the last place we should place our faith. Capitalism has less potential for harm because in its pure form no one can use coercive means to achieve their goals whereas in statism coercion is an integral part of social interaction.

"helping the poor with money that has been stolen is immoral and wealth redistribution by coercive means is a foundation of all statist systems." This year GE payed ZERO taxes. Also 60% of all large corporations in America pay no taxes. Instead the tax burden is placed on the middle class, and help for the needy is drastically cut due to lack of funds. The taxes that the corporations and super rich AREN'T paying... THAT'S stolen money. THAT'S redistribution of the wealth to the rich on the backs of the workers. Economic freedom is only equitable where there those having the money pay the most.

 

[BondiHarry]

LBP, for your many words in your last post you provided no evidence to support your view and scripture is clear God hates stealing, using unfair balances and covetousness. It is God who gives men the ability to acquire wealth, informs us we are stewards of what He provides and it is He who will reward or punish us as stewards.

Randy, have you studied economics? Do you not understand that taxes on business are transferred to the consumer since businesses will simply raise their charges for the goods and services they provide to make up for the shortfall caused by the taxes imposed on them. By what you say apparently you believe the wealth that men produce belongs not to them but to the state. As a Christian, I'd LOVE to know what scripture you cite to justify this belief as I have never come across it.

 

[LBP]

LBP, for your many words in your last post you provided no evidence to support your view and scripture is clear God hates stealing, using unfair balances and covetousness.

Kind of makes my point. Isn't "stealing, using unfair balances and covetousness" a pretty accurate description of the America in which we live? It's why I doubt seriously that God is looking down on America as "His Country."

It is God who gives men the ability to acquire wealth, informs us we are stewards of what He provides and it is He who will reward or punish us as stewards.

There is no "wealth" other than the earth God has created. I doubt seriously that when the Bible talks of being good stewards of this wealth, it is talking about a Wal-Mart every square mile, a McDonalds every block, the American Dream of a 5,000 square foot house and four cars, and the virtual rape of the planet for which capitalism has been approximately 99.9% responsible.

 

[Randy_R]

Do you not understand that taxes on business are transferred to the consumer since businesses will simply raise their charges for the goods and services they provide to make up for the shortfall caused by the taxes imposed on them.

And thus you have shown from your own words that capitalism is an unjust exploitative system that favors the the rich at the expense of the workers - until they revolt.

 

[BondiHarry]

And thus you have shown from your own words that capitalism is an unjust exploitative system that favors the the rich at the expense of the workers - until they revolt.

You REALLY need to study economics Randy. The state 'taxinig' business will do one of two things. The first is what I explained which is passing the cost of the taxes to the consumer (whcih causes inflation) OR, since you don't like that and blame the capitalist and not the politicians who create that tax, they can refrain from passing the cost of the tax and pay it themselves in full but what do you think happens then? Less investment in the tools the business needs to remain competitive or less investment in workers and their compensation. Either way, the greed of the state hurts the people be they consumers or the employees.

Besides, the moral purpose of government is to secure the blessings of liberty and that can be fully funded without taxing income or business.