Can scientists believe in modern miracles?

Jipsah · Apr 19, 2022

SeventhFisherofMen said:
At the end of the study both groups were evaluated by 12 physicians and each patient was given a score. While both groups stayed in the hospital for about the same period of time for care the group that was prayed for demonstrated a 10% decrease in score which means they had less severe events take place as compared to the control group. The higher the score the more serious the health complications, and the prayer group had a 10% lower score.
So there is your study.

So there is A study. One study, small sample. Conclusion to be drawn from it - that in that study patients who were prayed for fared better than those who did not. Now the scientific thing to do is examine all the variables amongst the test subjects, and see if there was any other commonalities among those whose health improved and those who did not. Then use the data acquired to conduct a better, more targeted, study.

Jipsah · Apr 19, 2022

bling said:
"Science" would say: If it happened then it happened naturally.

Not without further study they wouldn't. That study was utterly inconclusive.

Jipsah · Apr 19, 2022

tturt said:
Scientists researched prayer. Christian Testimonies - The power of prayer

The research team leader was an atheist. They were studying the human brain and when a dying Christian woman prayed,, their instruments measured unexpected results.

What waa this instrument measuring? RF signal strength? If so, why?

SeventhFisherofMen · Apr 19, 2022

Jipsah said:
So there is A study. One study, small sample. Conclusion to be drawn from it - that in that study patients who were prayed for fared better than those who did not. Now the scientific thing to do is examine all the variables amongst the test subjects, and see if there was any other commonalities among those whose health improved and those who did not. Then use the data acquired to conduct a better, more targeted, study.

You are correct, that was one study I found in a google search I did last night at 2:00 AM, there were other studies that came up from my search but I didn't have the time or energy to read all of them. I wouldn't assume that just because I quote A study that that means there's only one.

As far as your statement that there needs to be more done to make it a better study, I'm not sure what's making you think that it's not already a good study. It feels like even when results are presented there is a point where someone is not satisfied and wants more proof, even when proof has already been presented.

SkyWriting · Apr 19, 2022

SeventhFisherofMen said:
You are correct, that was one study I found in a google search I did last night at 2:00 AM, there were other studies that came up from my search but I didn't have the time or energy to read all of them. I wouldn't assume that just because I quote A study that that means there's only one.

As far as your statement that there needs to be more done to make it a better study, I'm not sure what's making you think that it's not already a good study. It feels like even when results are presented there is a point where someone is not satisfied and wants more proof, even when proof has already been presented.

There is no such thing as proof in science. Only additional data.

SeventhFisherofMen · Apr 19, 2022

SkyWriting said:
There is no such thing as proof in science. Only additional data.

I'm sure you understand the point I was trying to make here.

SkyWriting · Apr 19, 2022

SeventhFisherofMen said:
You are correct, that was one study I found in a google search I did last night at 2:00 AM, there were other studies that came up from my search but I didn't have the time or energy to read all of them. I wouldn't assume that just because I quote A study that that means there's only one.

As far as your statement that there needs to be more done to make it a better study, I'm not sure what's making you think that it's not already a good study. It feels like even when results are presented there is a point where someone is not satisfied and wants more proof, even when proof has already been presented.

There is the "alligator brain" and the "judge brain" and the analytical judge brain that considers facts and slowly thinks about issues has very little control. The alligator brain moves quickly and decisively, and operates on mostly autopilot. Usually, the judge brain will make up excuses for the alligator brain. It will reach and scratch till it finds some justification. "I Got the red sports car because I can get to work on time easier!" Any facts that counter the "alligator brain" actions are dismissed by the judge.

SeventhFisherofMen · Apr 19, 2022

SkyWriting said:
There is the "alligator brain" and the "judge brain" and the analytical judge brain that considers facts and slowly thinks about issues has very little control. The alligator brain moves quickly and decisively, and operates on mostly autopilot. Usually, the judge brain will make up excuses for the alligator brain. It will reach and scratch till it finds some justification. "I Got the red sports car because I can get to work on time easier!" Any facts that counter the "alligator brain" actions are dismissed by the judge.

I'm not sure what that has to do with what I said.

Homeowner · Apr 20, 2022

SeventhFisherofMen said:
Whether it's their own words or someone else's, a 10% difference is a 10% difference whether someone calls it significant or not.

Well as explained it doesn't mean anything statistically. Thankfully Jesus did bit better with his healing. Curing 10% of someone's leprosy wouldn't probably have made anyone's day that much better.

Jipsah · Apr 20, 2022

SeventhFisherofMen said:
As far as your statement that there needs to be more done to make it a better study, I'm not sure what's making you think that it's not already a good study. It feels like even when results are presented there is a point where someone is not satisfied and wants more proof, even when proof has already been presented.

OK, Tom Dick, and Harry all have cancer. Father Kim an RCC priest prays for Tom, Rev. Johnson the Baptist prays for Dick, and old Sister the Pentecostalist prays for Harry. Over the next year Dick and Harry both die, while Tom has complete remission. Conclusion - You should get a Roman Catholic to pray for you. Can't argue with results, now can you? The proof is right there.

SkyWriting · Apr 20, 2022

SeventhFisherofMen said:
I'm not sure what that has to do with what I said.

No matter what "Facts" are given, they can't change the emotion that decisions are actually based on.

SeventhFisherofMen · Apr 21, 2022

SkyWriting said:
No matter what "Facts" are given, they can't change the emotion that decisions are actually based on.

but what does that have to do with the study quoted?

SeventhFisherofMen · Apr 21, 2022

Homeowner said:
Well as explained it doesn't mean anything statistically. Thankfully Jesus did bit better with his healing. Curing 10% of someone's leprosy wouldn't probably have made anyone's day that much better.

But if you took 10% of all lepers in Israel that might be the same percentage of people that went to meet Jesus and be healed.

Chris35 · Apr 21, 2022

Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don’t understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.

Is the problem really proof or is it blindness?

Valletta · Apr 21, 2022

SkyWriting said:
No matter what "Facts" are given, they can't change the emotion that decisions are actually based on.

Check out Dr. Alex Carrel
Contemporary Miracles Associated with Blessed Mary, Saints, and the Holy Eucharist [Spitzer Scholarly Article]

SkyWriting · Apr 21, 2022

Valletta said:
Check out Dr. Alex Carrel
Contemporary Miracles Associated with Blessed Mary, Saints, and the Holy Eucharist [Spitzer Scholarly Article]

I've experienced miracles three times. Analysis of those events matches other stories I've read where the focus was on the long story and not on inflated claims of grandeur or control.

Hear God's Voice - Get Prayers Answered - Instructions (in plain English) Here-
God heard your prayer, planned, and laid out your answer for you to experience - before you prayed.

As far as flaking paint goes, it's not an issue if ones not a painter. If the paint outline looks like The-Bishop-of-Cadberry, it's not worth my time investigating if it does or not.

SkyWriting · Apr 21, 2022

SeventhFisherofMen said:
Whether it's their own words or someone else's, a 10% difference is a 10% difference whether someone calls it significant or not.

The reason for 100's of studies to prove a point is important. For example, was the prayer group in a separate country? Given that the prayer group actively attended church every week for 6 months it it possible that one person revealed to one other person who they were praying for? This could swing a 10% change in how many visits to the hospital family members made. Perhaps one or two peoples names made it out of the prayer group into the community. This would increase family visits and move the data points by 10%. It would only take a few visits to improve an outcome.

This is the reason for "double blind" studies. But it would be hard to pray for somebody not knowing who you were praying for. That would be a double blind study.

People who want to believe in prayer are blind to the details that could account for the outcome they are "praying" for to be true.

SkyWriting · Apr 21, 2022

TruthSeek3r said:
Can a scientist, as someone who follows the scientific method, believe in miracles?

Can a scientist believe that miracles still happen today?

Are there any examples of scientists who believe in modern miracles?

_____

As a reminder of the definition of Scientific Method:

From Scientific method - Wikipedia:

The scientific method is an empirical method of acquiring knowledge that has characterized the development of science since at least the 17th century (with notable practitioners in previous centuries). It involves careful observation, applying rigorous skepticism about what is observed, given that cognitive assumptions can distort how one interprets the observation. It involves formulating hypotheses, via induction, based on such observations; experimental and measurement-based testing of deductions drawn from the hypotheses; and refinement (or elimination) of the hypotheses based on the experimental findings. These are principles of the scientific method, as distinguished from a definitive series of steps applicable to all scientific enterprises.[1][2][3]

Although procedures vary from one field of inquiry to another, the underlying process is frequently the same from one field to another. The process in the scientific method involves making conjectures (hypothetical explanations), deriving predictions from the hypotheses as logical consequences, and then carrying out experiments or empirical observations based on those predictions.

Most physicians believe in divine intervention. Statistically.

o_mlly · Apr 21, 2022

TruthSeek3r said:
Can a scientist, as someone who follows the scientific method, believe in miracles?

Sure. They simply call them something else like an emergent property or brute fact. Both claims require no causal explanation.

RileyG · Apr 21, 2022

Yes. Why not? Some scientists can be devout believers and people of faith.

Can scientists believe in modern miracles?

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