Can Protestants be saved?

Virgil the Roman · Dec 19, 2008

What I see as particularly is that some folks here, put forth here a "latitudinarian"-view that somehow "Protestants" who reject the Catholic Faith can be saved!----They cannot! I, nor a protestant, nor a Catholic, knows the state of his own soul; this I do know: to work out my salvation with fear and trembling, to implore our Good Lord's mercy; and to keep the whole of the Catholic Faith (and assent to it), in order to inherit Eternal life. I cannot know more; for when I appear for our Most High God's judgment Seat: God shall judge me rigorously and vigorously. As Holy Writ saith: "A man doth not know whether he be worthy of good or evil."

Debi1967 · Dec 19, 2008

Ravenonthecross said:
What I see as particularly is that some folks here, put forth here a "latitudinarian"-view that somehow "Protestants" who reject the Catholic Faith can be saved!----They cannot! I, nor a protestant, nor a Catholic, knows the state of his own soul; this I do know: to work out my salvation with fear and trembling, to implore our Good Lord's mercy; and to keep the whole of the Catholic Faith (and assent to it), in order to inherit Eternal life. I cannot know more; for when I appear for our Most High God's judgment Seat: God shall judge me rigorously and vigorously. As Holy Writ saith: "A man doth not know whether he be worthy of good or evil."

From the Catechism Of The Catholic Church:

(START)
Wounds to unity

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ's Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

Virgil the Roman · Dec 19, 2008

I know that; however, one does sin, after indeed finding out the fact the Catholic Church is the true Church of Christ; if one suspects that she is, or refuses to acknowledge the possibility that the Catholic Church is indeed Christ's One True Church: then they could potentially be guilty of Mortal Sin. For example, had I not came back to the Catholic Church; and remained on my path to Protestantism: I have no doubt that I'd probably have sinned mortally and consigned myself to the depths of Hell. For others' sake I cannot say; however, One isn't to reject the Catholic Church just because they do not comprehend or even fully agree with her doctrine----I came back to her in humble submission, knowing that I didn't fully agree with nor understand with alot of Catholic doctrine and teaching; however, I trusted that God lead me to his One True Church, and I prayed for his guidance. Gradually, all my qualms and disagreements melted away that I had with the Holy Mother Church----as such that I can that I'm orthodox Catholic, in that I fully assent to our Good Lord and the truth of His Holy Catholic Church, even when I don't fully comprehend or understand it. I merely say, as God requires not our understanding, but to say: "Amen, it is so."
+In Jesus & Mary+
-Matthew

P.S. (And yes; I've read that many a time; so yes that may be true only to certain point in one's life, however, once one reaches the Age of Reason, and finds the knowledge [that] (or even suspects)---the Catholic Church to be the True Church of Jesus Christ and REFUSES TO investigate, join, or explore the claim that she is in fact that one beloved Bride of Christ, then one has sinned mortally. Can I judge how culpably said person might be: NO, I cannot; for that is up to our Blessed Lord God alone to Judge. Still it remains just the same all are bound to enjoin themselves in some fashion or manner unto the One Holy Catholic Church of our Good Saviour Jhesus Christ for Salvation for it is his body; and she [the body of Christ/the Catholic Church] cannot act without her head. The Body of Christ proclaims the truth of the Catholic Faith always. And so, since she is Christ's body, one cannot find salvation outside of her.

Virgil the Roman · Dec 19, 2008

And No, I'm not trying to be a jerk. This has been thorny issue for me, for quite sometime. I'm still learning, and as regards to my own self----I beg the Lord's mercy upon me, for I presume it not: for I know not whether or not I shall indeed be saved. And I discussed with Feeney-ites as well, as well as Universalist-Modernists; so I know the Catholic Faith, don't worry to much.

(and yes, I'm in a tenuous situation myself; I live with an Evangelical roommate(a best friend of mine), so our conversations, easily morph into debates.(...I'm surprised we've not started throwing stuff at each other.) But yeah, I'm still working on this Christian "dialogue"-type thing. I kinda have to live with it. )

Debi1967 · Dec 19, 2008

Ravenonthecross said:
And No, I'm not trying to be a jerk. This has been thorny issue for me, for quite sometime. I'm still learning, and as regards to my own self----I beg the Lord's mercy upon me, for I presume it not: for I know not whether or not I shall indeed be saved. And I discussed with Feeney-ites as well, as well as Universalist-Modernists; so I know the Catholic Faith, don't worry to much.

(and yes, I'm in a tenuous situation myself; I live with an Evangelical roommate(a best friend of mine), so our conversations, easily morph into debates.(...I'm surprised we've not started throwing stuff at each other.) But yeah, I'm still working on this Christian "dialogue"-type thing. I kinda have to live with it. )

If you are discussing this with Feeeyites (who are in Schism with the Church) and are talking to Universalist and Modernists Both theologies are Heresies in the Church then you are not getting the right teaching ... Stick to the CCC and the Church documents.

Virgil the Roman · Dec 19, 2008

that's not what I meant Debi: I meant that I've debated them; not agreed with them! I'm an orthodox Catholic, I adhere to the Teachings of the Church, esp. as the Popes via Encyclical and the Roman Catechism have defined. Modernists are heretics and Feeneyites are in schism [possibly heresy?]---I would never agree with them. I've only said, I know the Church's teaching; I've debated with a myriad of folks in the past---so I know what the Church teaches. I hope I'm a little clearer for you now.

Gwendolyn · Dec 19, 2008

Accepting non-Catholics as our brothers and sisters does not mean turning a blind eye to erroneous beliefs. And the reality is, there are 33,000 denominations' worth of erroneous belief out there. We can love them, and vigorously disagree with their erroneous theologies.

Katholish · Dec 19, 2008

DD2008 said:
Katholish said:

From Lumen Gentium

15. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ's disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...s/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

Click to expand...

Being "linked" with the Church and actually being a member are two very different things. There are also degrees of commonality, which is the point of Lumen Gentium in this section. Right after that paragraph the document goes on to address our relation with the Jews and Muslims and non-believers.

Lumen Gentium certainly does not say that Protestants are Catholics, which is what you are maintaining to some extent.

DD2008 · Dec 19, 2008

Katholish said:
DD2008 said:

Being "linked" with the Church and actually being a member are two very different things. There are also degrees of commonality, which is the point of Lumen Gentium in this section. Right after that paragraph the document goes on to address our relation with the Jews and Muslims and non-believers.

Lumen Gentium certainly does not say that Protestants are Catholics, which is what you are maintaining to some extent.

Click to expand...

There is one Christ, one Bread, one Universal Christian Church. To be linked to it is to be a part of it. All of the denominations of the Church who do their part as the pillar and butress upholding the Gospel of Christ (the truth) and who baptize with a Trinitarian baptism are indeed part of the Universal Church. So I maintain that all baptized Christians are a part of the Catholic Church regardless if they know it or not.

The Baptized Christians who are in full communion with Rome are the lucky ones who are in full communion with the fullness of the faith.

Katholish · Dec 20, 2008

Your statement denies the essential visibility of the Church. Your conception is that unity of government is not required to be part of the Church, and therefore, the Church is not properly a visible entity. You are also essentially claiming that unity of doctrine is not required either.

This is a Protestant notion of what ther Church is, and is certainly contrary to Mystici Corporis which I quoted and several other magisterial sources. It is unclear to me if you are consciously dissenting from the magisterium, or if it is not clear to you that I am adequately representing the magisterial sources. If the later is the case, please let me know and I will take the time to find more explicit definitions of what it means to be part of the Church.

Virgil the Roman · Dec 20, 2008

Katholish: are you talking to me or DD? I'm confused.
Anywho, Can you explain more any ways on what you mean Katholish?!? I'm interested, so that if you could paint an image in our heads of what is the proper understanding of the Church.

Thanks,
+In Jesus and Mary+
-Matthew

Virgil the Roman · Dec 20, 2008

DD2008 said:
Katholish said:

There is one Christ, one Bread, one Universal Christian Church. To be linked to it is to be a part of it. All of the denominations of the Church who do their part as the pillar and butress upholding the Gospel of Christ (the truth) and who baptize with a Trinitarian baptism are indeed part of the Universal Church. So I maintain that all baptized Christians are a part of the Catholic Church regardless if they know it or not.

The Baptized Christians who are in full communion with Rome are the lucky ones who are in full communion with the fullness of the faith.

Click to expand...

No; Sir, you're putting forth the heretical notion that the Church is "somehow" universally is invisible or not visible as if all the Protestants were just federated allies who are in the "federation" of the Catholic Church----such a view is plainly an error. I suggest, you read Blessed Pius XII's Mystici, Along with Pope Leo XIII's Union of Christendom: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15132a.htm

Also Read Mortalium Animos by Pope Pius XI.

DD2008 · Dec 20, 2008

Katholish said:
Your statement denies the essential visibility of the Church. Your conception is that unity of government is not required to be part of the Church, and therefore, the Church is not properly a visible entity. You are also essentially claiming that unity of doctrine is not required either.

This is a Protestant notion of what ther Church is, and is certainly contrary to Mystici Corporis which I quoted and several other magisterial sources. It is unclear to me if you are consciously dissenting from the magisterium, or if it is not clear to you that I am adequately representing the magisterial sources. If the later is the case, please let me know and I will take the time to find more explicit definitions of what it means to be part of the Church.

It is neither option

The statement does not deny the visibility of the Church. You can see the visible Church all around everywhere you see a Catholic Church. Everyone knows the claims of the Pope and the Vatican so with little study you can see that in communion with that body you have the fullness fo faith.

The hearts of men are visible only to God. The Church is visible. It also has invisible parts that are in disagreement with the visible part that nevertheless move at their logical end toward Catholic unity. I believe as Lumen Gentium says:

"This is the one Church of Christ which in the Creed is professed as one, holy, catholic and apostolic, (12*) which our Saviour, after His Resurrection, commissioned Peter to shepherd,(74) and him and the other apostles to extend and direct with authority,(75) which He erected for all ages as "the pillar and mainstay of the truth".(76) This Church constituted and organized in the world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him,(13*) although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure. These elements, as gifts belonging to the Church of Christ, are forces impelling toward catholic unity."

So, they are Catholic because they are part of the universal church. They are just not in full communion with Rome. They still preach the gospel and baptize. So they are linked. A link is a joint, something attached. So, Catholic means universal. They are Catholic. To impel towards Catholic unity means moving towards getting all of the disagreeing "Catholics" to agree and come into communion with one another.

DD2008 · Dec 20, 2008

Ravenonthecross said:
DD2008 said:

No; Sir, you're putting forth the heretical notion that the Church is "somehow" universally is invisible or not visible as if all the Protestants were just federated allies who are in the "federation" of the Catholic Church----such a view is plainly an error. I suggest, you read Blessed Pius XII's Mystici, Along with Pope Leo XIII's Union of Christendom: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15132a.htm

Also Read Mortalium Animos by Pope Pius XI.

Click to expand...

Not at all. I never said they weren't in error. I'm simply saying that they are linked to the Church, thus a part of it and are impeling toward Catholic unity. As in the post above this one. Read Lumen Gentium. It's the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church from Vatican II.

They are Catholic regardless if they realize it or not. They just aren't in communion with the Bishop of Rome.

So how can all of these bodies imepl toward Catholic unity if they are not all Catholic to begin with?

benedictaoo · Dec 20, 2008

DD2008 said:
Ravenonthecross said:

Not at all. I never said they weren't in error. I'm simply saying that they are linked to the Church, thus a part of it and are impeling toward Catholic unity. As in the post above this one. Read Lumen Gentium. It's the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church from Vatican II.

They are Catholic regardless if they realize it or not. They just aren't in communion with the Bishop of Rome.

So how can all of these bodies imepl toward Catholic unity if they are not all Catholic to begin with?

Click to expand...

Here is the problem.. it's like a big bullseye. Some Prot denominations are closer to the center then others are.

It boils down to two things, invincible ignorance and vincible ignorence. Only God can judge who is what, you can not and I can not.

Only God can know who was born into Protestantism and through no fault of theirs could not get over the bias against the Church and who willfully rejects the Church and who left the Church out of invincible ignorence vrs willful ignorence.

And it's also going to boil down to who wilfully rejected baptism and claimed it was just getting wet and who truly did not know it's necessity but had they, they would have gladly been baptized. It will biol down to the same things for non Christians as well.

We have to accept we can never know. We have to admit that this division is not of God and it's a ploy of the enemy to have ppl so confused that they do not know what it true and what is error.

We have to all accept that God is more powerful then all this confusion and ignorence thanks to the "Reformation" and that folks can still be saved because Christ died for the salvation of the world.

We know where and what the true Church is (Catholic and Rome) but we just can not say where it is not.

DD2008 · Dec 20, 2008

benedictaoo said:
DD2008 said:

Here is the problem.. it's like a big bullseye. Some Prot denominations are closer to the center then others are.

It boils down to two things, invincible ignorance and vincible ignorence. Only God can judge who is what, you can not and I can not.

Only God can know who was born into Protestantism and through no fault of theirs could not get over the bias against the Church and who willfully rejects the Church and who left the Church out of invincible ignorence vrs willful ignorence.

And it's also going to boil down to who wilfully rejected baptism and claimed it was just getting wet and who truly did not know it's necessity but had they, they would have gladly been baptized. It will biol down to the same things for non Christians as well.

We have to accept we can never know. We have to admit that this division is not of God and it's a ploy of the enemy to have ppl so confused that they do not know what it true and what is error.

We have to all accept that God is more powerful then all this confusion and ignorence thanks to the "Reformation" and that folks can still be saved because Christ died for the salvation of the world.

We know where and what the true Church is (Catholic and Rome) but we just can not say where it is not.

Click to expand...

Right. All I'm doing is repeating Lumen Gentium. Which I believe to be a great document on ecclesiology. It basically says that we are all linked and that those outside of the visible structure (In communion with Rome) are still impelling toward Catholic unity.

So, obviously no one can judge the heart of another. We each must follow our conscience as formed to the best of our ability.

I personally think there is error all over the place. However, any friend of Christ is a friend of mine and I think we can work together to impel toward Catholic unity through prayer and dialog. When we just reject everyone we do nothing to further the cause of unity.

benedictaoo · Dec 20, 2008

Pertaining to faith and morals there is no doctrinal error in the Catholic Church, David. I do not know if that is what you were implying but there is no error in this place.

And it's baptism that links anyone to the Church.. it's not Protestantism. It's baptism and we can not overlook the fact that many of these denominations do not baptized properly and/or reject baptism as a means of salvation. So where does that leave them? To God's mercy.

My point is, Vll was not validating Protestant 'churches.' Just saying that proper baptism links anyone to the one and only Church there is, Catholic.

DD2008 · Dec 20, 2008

benedictaoo said:
Pertaining to faith and morals there is no doctrinal error in the Catholic Church, David. I do not know if that is what you were implying but there is no error in this place.

And it's baptism that links anyone to the Church.. it's not Protestantism. It's baptism and we can not overlook the fact that many of these denominations do not baptized properly and/or reject baptism as a means of salvation. So where does that leave them? To God's mercy.

My point is, Vll was not validating Protestant 'churches.' Just saying that proper baptism links anyone to the one and only Church there is, Catholic.

I really don't see where the disagreement is. They are linked to the Catholic Church but not in full communion with it. So, there is no error in the doctrine of the Catholic Church. But there are plenty of "catholics" who don't think that so they protest.

Everyone is left to God's mercy.

Virgil the Roman · Dec 20, 2008

benedictaoo said:
Here is the problem.. it's like a big bullseye. Some Prot denominations are closer to the center then others are.

It boils down to two things, invincible ignorance and vincible ignorence. Only God can judge who is what, you can not and I can not.

Only God can know who was born into Protestantism and through no fault of theirs could not get over the bias against the Church and who willfully rejects the Church and who left the Church out of invincible ignorence vrs willful ignorence.

And it's also going to boil down to who wilfully rejected baptism and claimed it was just getting wet and who truly did not know it's necessity but had they, they would have gladly been baptized. It will boil down to the same things for non Christians as well.

We have to accept we can never know. We have to admit that this division is not of God and it's a ploy of the enemy to have ppl so confused that they do not know what it true and what is error.

We have to all accept that God is more powerful then all this confusion and ignorence thanks to the "Reformation" and that folks can still be saved because Christ died for the salvation of the world.

We know where and what the true Church is (Catholic and Rome) but we just can not say where it is not..

Thank you; that's just what I needed to hear; and wanted to know! Simple, and non-confusing!
God bless thee,
+In Jhesus & Mary+

benedictaoo · Dec 20, 2008

DD2008 said:
I really don't see where the disagreement is. They are linked to the Catholic Church but not in full communion with it. So, there is no error in the doctrine of the Catholic Church. But there are plenty of "catholics" who don't think that so they protest.

Everyone is left to God's mercy.

I'm not disagreeing-- just pointing out and making sure you know that Vll was never a validation of Protestantism. It was pointing out that the folks who are Protestant are still linked to the Church by what ever truth it hung on to and did not reject. It's that truth that will save them... set them free. The truth where ever it is, who ever it is preached by, is Catholic, thus, there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church.

Can Protestants be saved?

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