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If the life in the womb is human then it is murder. There is no intentional lie here by the anti abortion side.
Also, to expect a friendly conversation over anything that stirs passion is delusional.
Perhaps I am less certain about this than you.I said human being. Not person. I'm sure you can differentiate between a biological term and a legal term.
Illegal homicide by the standards of current law in a country like the US? Or murder by a Christian understanding of what murder is? Those are two rather different things.Everyone knows murder is only illegal homicide. Can you prove all abortions are illegal, even to save the mother's life?
All Christians on this forum know the Golden Rule and the Second Commandment. They know what Jesus said about love, respect, and kindness. So if you want to believe I am delusional, you want to sin by treating people on the other side with total disrespect and mean insults, not make any effort to do what Jesus would do.
The intentional lie is in your own post: calling completely legal procedures murder.
I understand not wanting to debate, but throwing out there your opinion that abortion as murdering babies being "obviously a lie" is basically asking for a debate. People asked my mom to have an abortion, i would be dead if she got it, which is obviously not a lie.I never want to debate abortion with people who disagree with me on the issue because it just goes around in circles, with "pro-lifers" wrongly accusing pro-choicers of murdering babies (which is obviously a lie)...
Where is the lie though? Killing 62 million human beings within 50 years is well within the definition of "slaughter". You might not like it, but it's not a lie.The whole purpose of this thread is to NOT have extremely obvious and offensive lies such as "slaughtering unborn children" that make people look like evil idiots instead of real Christians. Read the thread title again.
What do you think the Bible says about treating others with love and respect even if you totally disagree with them? And what did you learn in English classes at school about the definition of "child, which is a BORN human being?
I think it's not so much about not wanting to debate, as not wanting to debate with people that are completely convinced they're right.I understand not wanting to debate, but throwing out there your opinion that abortion as murdering babies being "obviously a lie" is basically asking for a debate. People asked my mom to have an abortion, i would be dead if she got it, which is obviously not a lie.
That's an understandable position, though it's not self-evident that uncontrolled access to abortions is "the greatest good for the greatest number". The "greatest number" is all of society at large, and as Chuck Schumer recently pointed out there are severe issues emerging from declining birthrates. (His solution would be to bring it all kinds of immigrants, but that's treating the symptoms, not the root of the problem).Perhaps I am less certain about this than you.
The law is clear about what a person is. It has less to say about the distinction you are making. It has been pointed out that there are big differences in religious opinion about the soul's appearance on the scene; at any moment between conception and puberty. Once that theological point is cleared up the abortion debate is over.
I think this question is at the core of the debate. As I don't think there is such an entity as a soul I have to ask a different sort of question. In large part the answer for many like me is utilitarian - the greatest good for the greatest number. Yet utilitarian solutions to moral issues are sometimes too easy to construct and dismantle.
It is difficult to come to a neat answer to this moral issue unless you rely, as many do, on the authority of religion. Yet even among the religious there is much disagreement.
Thus it is probably best to regard this as a matter for individuals - and keep the Law out of it.
Not all things are black and white, but not all things are grey either. There are definitely some truths in the bible and considering abortion as murder actually makes sense. There is a life and people are taking it away without the say of the life itself.I think it's not so much about not wanting to debate, as not wanting to debate with people that are completely convinced they're right.
I used to think the world was so black and white. I don't anymore.
Illegal homicide by the standards of current law in a country like the US? Or murder by a Christian understanding of what murder is? Those are two rather different things.
With regards to my delusion comment. I wasn't insulting you, only saying that your desire will not be met out in reality because people who disagree on subjects intensely tend to become passionate. You for instance believe in unfettered access to abortion for any reason. Christianity rejects said standard and thus the conflict.
This can never be merely a friendly conversation, mainly because the stakes are so high and both sides are invested in their side.
Am I to discount a Christian understanding of murder in favour a purely secular one? As a Christian why do you think the non-Christian standard is better and or superior?The word "murder" always means illegal homicide according to constitutional laws, not Biblical laws.
You don't support abortion of convenience?Show me where I said that. Most pregnancies can be diagnosed during the embryonic stage. I only support aborting fetuses for medical reasons.
Even Jesus got mad at times and uncivil with his enemies. We do not have to necessarily engage in a standard of absolute friendliness on the subject of abortion.As ordinary citizens who do not financially or politically benefit from any opinions on abortion, we can always try to be friendlier than our elected representatives when discussing its morality. I want to see Christians try to follow the Golden Rule where an agreement is impossible.
I understand not wanting to debate, but throwing out there your opinion that abortion as murdering babies being "obviously a lie" is basically asking for a debate. People asked my mom to have an abortion, i would be dead if she got it, which is obviously not a lie.
Slavery was legal, do you think Jesus approved of the way slaves were treated? Considering something as legal meaning the same as not sinful is not logical. Also abortion is illegal at this moment, so what does that say about the topic? Nothing other than the laws changed. But God does not change and neither does His commands not to murder.If you were aborted, your death would have been a legal one. It could not have been murder.
Why did people want your mom to have an abortion?
I'm genuinely curious - if it's black and white, then why do you think so many people have differing opinions on the matter of abortion? Nobody is confused over whether killing a 6-year-old is murder. Nobody is arguing that that should be acceptable.Not all things are black and white, but not all things are grey either. There are definitely some truths in the bible and considering abortion as murder actually makes sense. There is a life and people are taking it away without the say of the life itself.
Because they have differing desires. Bottom line is people don't want to take care of a child so they put their own desires before the life of a child.I'm genuinely curious - if it's black and white, then why do you think so many people have differing opinions on the matter of abortion? Nobody is confused over whether killing a 6-year-old is murder. Nobody is arguing that that should be acceptable.
Why do otherwise decent people who have never had an abortion and have no desire to ever have an abortion think that it should be legal?Because they have differing desires. Bottom line is people don't want to take care of a child so they put their own desires before the life of a child.
Am I to discount a Christian understanding of murder in favor a purely secular one? As a Christian why do you think the non-Christian standard is better and or superior?
You don't support abortion of convenience?
The definition of murder is strictly secular. It is 00% about the laws of the state or province and country you live in. That is a fact.
For the opposite to be true, we must live in a Christian theocracy. America has been a secular nation width separation between church and state since 1791, so by constitutional law that cannot happen. Would you like to live in Vatican City?
So I wasn't wrong when I said you support unfettered access and no practical restrictions on abortion.I totally support the woman's right to privacy and oppose the government making medical decisions for her. Only God knows her body more than she does. Any law that mandates abortion reporting is a violation of the Fourth Amendment. I don't want women to choose abortions for any reason, but no matter what the reason is, the government has no legal right to stop her.
There a various reasons why people are pro-abortion. Almost everyone has an opinion on this topic, but many of them aren't interested or enthusiastic enough to look at the statistics or even the basic biological facts. There are still people out there who believe that a 12-week fetus is "a clump of cells". For them it is absurd that Hungary has a law requiring women who seek an abortion to listen to the fetus' heartbeat at 12 weeks onwards, because they don't understand that a fetus has a heartbeat after 12 weeks.Why do otherwise decent people who have never had an abortion and have no desire to ever have an abortion think that it should be legal?
Slavery was legal, do you think Jesus approved of the way slaves were treated? Considering something as legal meaning the same as not sinful is not logical. Also abortion is illegal at this moment, so what does that say about the topic? Nothing other than the laws changed. But God does not change and neither does His commands not to murder.
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