Can people who disagree on abortion stop attacking each other?

[David Collins]

This is one of the areas of the forum that allows us non-Christians to post.

i did pick that up. i respect freedom of speech so i dont blame you for coming here for a debate

that being said, if one party thinks an unborn baby is a life, and the other party thinks it is not, it's easy to see why there are different points of view. from my christian point of view, abortion is wrong.

 

[jayem]

how do you know if an unborn baby (you will say a fetus), is not a person? you're taking the chance of killing a person. if the mother's life is not on the line, it is immoral to commit abortion because you are risking death of another human

You’re arguing morality. My argument is legality. Where does the Constitution say—or even imply—that the unborn are “persons” as that term is used in the 14th Amendment? Conservatives have repeatedly criticized liberal SCOTUS decisions for reading things into the Constitution that aren’t there. If you think the unborn have Constitutional rigjts then you’re doing the same thing. BTW, the Dobbs decision didn’t criminalize elective abortion. It recognized that the unborn are not legal persons at the national level, and left their status to be determined by each state individually.

If you believe the unborn are persons, and elective abortion should be prohibited nationwide, the proper and most secure way to do that is with a Constitutional amendment. Get to work.

 

[Desk trauma]

You’re arguing morality. My argument is legality. Where does the Constitution say—or even imply—that the unborn are “persons” as that term is used in the 14th Amendment? Conservatives have repeatedly criticized liberal SCOTUS decisions for reading things into the Constitution that aren’t there. If you think the unborn have Constitutional rigjts then you’re doing the same thing. BTW, the Dobbs decision didn’t criminalize elective abortion. It recognized that the unborn are not legal persons at the national level, and left their status to be determined by each state individually.

The Dobbs decision left abortion law open to the feds as well.

 

[David Collins]

You’re arguing morality. My argument is legality. Where does the Constitution say—or even imply—that the unborn are “persons” as that term is used in the 14th Amendment? Conservatives have repeatedly criticized liberal SCOTUS decisions for reading things into the Constitution that aren’t there. If you think the unborn have Constitutional rigjts then you’re doing the same thing. BTW, the Dobbs decision didn’t criminalize elective abortion. It recognized that the unborn are not legal persons at the national level, and left their status to be determined by each state individually.

If you believe the unborn are persons, and elective abortion should be prohibited nationwide, the proper and most secure way to do that is with a Constitutional amendment. Get to work.

do you believe i have the ability to affect the constitution?

 

[jayem]

do you believe i have the ability to affect the constitution?

Not by yourself. But if you're serious about prohibiting abortion nationwide you can work with pro-life groups to educate people and align their values and attitudes in sync with your way of thinking. The 19th Amendment, which gave women the right to vote, was the product of a bottom-up grass roots movement. It took time--70 years or so. But it happened.

BTW: I'd cool it with the religious talk. You'll turn people off with the fire and brimstone ranting.

 

[David Collins]

BTW: I'd cool it with the religious talk. You'll turn people off with the fire and brimstone ranting.

this is a christian forum. i mean what dont you get about that? this is kinda the time and place to do that.

(there's a time and a place for everything.....)

also, i wanna circle back to a question i asked earlier. if an unborn baby is a life, then wouldnt killing it be murder in a moral sense?

 

[Ed Parenteau]

The Roman's had some rather sophisticated and grizzly abortion tools in their day. Nothing has changed much since then including the arguments. Abortion in Ancient Rome

 

[coffee4u]

Embryos are not people.

Yes they are.

Psalm 139​

13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place,
when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my unformed body;
all the days ordained for me were written in your book
before one of them came to be.

 

[jayem]

also, i wanna circle back to a question i asked earlier. if an unborn baby is a life, then wouldnt killing it be murder in a moral sense?

That depends on the reason. If the mother contracts an illness that may be worsened by the pregnancy (I worked in health care 40+ years and I’ve seen several such cases) then the answer is no. Ditto if the mother needs treatment that may cause a miscarriage or fetal malformation (such as radiation and some chemotherapy.) And the same if the pregnancy resulted from sexual assault. I’ll admit it’s morally dicier to terminate a healthy pregnancy for purely socioeconomic reasons. Or if a pregnant woman is forced to seek an abortion by her husband, boyfriend, or family. Which is fairly common. But as I stated in an earlier post, up to 20 weeks of gestation, abortion should be a private medical decision between a woman and her doctor. It’s no business of the government or anyone else.

And anyway, not everything immoral has to be illegal.

 

[David Collins]

But as I stated in an earlier post, up to 20 weeks of gestation, abortion should be a private medical decision between a woman and her doctor. It’s no business of the government or anyone else.

you're still sidestepping the main point of morality

if a woman gives birth to a child of a few days and kills it, why should it be "my business"?

 

[NxNW]

Yes they are.

Psalm 139​

13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.

Biblical quotes are not a valid argument. Still, this one ignores the fact that conception occurs in the fallopian tube, not the womb. But since you've admitted that life begins after conception, the only question is, how long after conception?

all the days ordained for me were written in your book

This seems to imply that we lack free will, and that everything is preordained.

 

[NxNW]

you're still sidestepping the main point of morality

if a woman gives birth to a child of a few days and kills it, why should it be "my business"?

A child that has been born is a human being, so it's society's business when murder occurs. An embryo is not a human being, because it lacks the capacity to breath, think, and receive sensory input.

 

[YahuahSaves]

A child that has been born is a human being, so it's society's business when murder occurs. An embryo is not a human being, because it lacks the capacity to breath, think, and receive sensory input.

Babies Learn to Recognize Words in the Womb

While in womb, babies begin learning language from their mothers

 

[NxNW]

Babies Learn to Recognize Words in the Womb

While in womb, babies begin learning language from their mothers

I'm talking about embryos, not the last few weeks of pregnancy, when high brain function is present. Also, Roe vs Wade didn't apply to that later stage.

 

[YahuahSaves]

I'm talking about embryos, not the last few weeks of pregnancy, when high brain function is present. Also, Roe vs Wade didn't apply to that later stage.

The study was in the last few months of pregnancy. So it supports the view that the pre-born are infact "human beings" as many seem to want to argue that they're not.

 

[David Collins]

A child that has been born is a human being, so it's society's business when murder occurs. An embryo is not a human being, because it lacks the capacity to breath, think, and receive sensory input.

why is it my business if a pre-born is murdered?

 

[jayem]

A child that has been born is a human being, so it's society's business when murder occurs. An embryo is not a human being, because it lacks the capacity to breath, think, and receive sensory input.

I don’t want to be pedantic, but I’m kind of a stickler for terminology. An embryo/fetus in utero is human in the biological sense. But it’s not a person in the legal sense. It doesn’t have 14th Amendment Constitutional rights. However, the Dobbs decision allows states to designate the unborn as persons under state law. Which makes things clear as mud. Of course, there’s no argument that legal personhood occurs at birth, no matter the degree of prematurity. And to be even more specific, obstetric tradition has it that birth has occurred when the newborn’s head is outside the mother’s body.

 

[Isilwen]

without contraception.

Bible reference please

 

[jayem]

why is it my business if a pre-born is murdered?

Who said it was? Should it be?

 

[David Collins]

Who said it was? Should it be?

i dont see atheists arguing for abortion at the last moment. this implies they dont care for it to be illegal