Can omnipotence coexist with free will?

[Wiccan_Child]

Can omnipotence coexist with free will?

 

[Lord Emsworth]

There is no libertarian free will. And ommipotence doesn't make that much sense either.

So, no.

 

[dysert]

Can omnipotence coexist with free will?

I don't see why not. An omnipotent being would have the capability to not exercise his power as he sees fit. And a being with free will could continue to make choices regardless of the omnipotent being. I don't see a mutual exclusion there.

 

[Tinker Grey]

I tend to agree with dysert. However, I would suppose that omnipotence implies the ability to effect whatever it is that one wills. If so, is it possible for such a being to be in a state of "not willing" anything?

 

[Elioenai26]

Can omnipotence coexist with free will?

Some will say yes. Some will say no. It depends on one's understanding of "free will".

I say yes.

I am a free agent and am culpable for my actions and I coexist with God who is omnipotent.

So yes.

 

[ChristianT]

I tend to agree with dysert. However, I would suppose that omnipotence implies the ability to effect whatever it is that one wills. If so, is it possible for such a being to be in a state of "not willing" anything?

If His will is to affect what His will is and to what extent He asserts it.

 

[Elioenai26]

I tend to agree with dysert. However, I would suppose that omnipotence implies the ability to effect whatever it is that one wills. If so, is it possible for such a being to be in a state of "not willing" anything?

Omnipotence is the attribute of being capable of actualizing any state of affairs that are logically possible.

It is not simply being able to do "whatever" one wills.

For example. When theologians say God is omnipotent, they mean very simply that He is able to actualize any state of affairs so long as they are not logically impossible.

God cannot make a stone too heavy for him to lift. He cannot make a "married bachelor" or a "round square" etc etc.

 

[ChristianT]

Omnipotence is the attribute of being capable of actualizing any state of affairs that are logically possible.

It is not simply being able to do "whatever" one wills.

For example. When theologians say God is omnipotent, they mean very simply that He is able to actualize any state of affairs so long as they are not logically impossible.

God cannot make a stone too heavy for him to lift. He cannot make a "married bachelor" or a "round square" etc etc.

I disagree to a point. I believe He made a virgin pregnant, of course even if she wasn't a virgin, I don't believe Jesus was born of man and woman.

 

[SithDoughnut]

Can omnipotence coexist with free will?

Yes. As said before, any being has the choice to not exercise its power.

 

[Elioenai26]

I disagree to a point. I believe He made a virgin pregnant, of course even if she wasn't a virgin, I don't believe Jesus was born of man and woman.

When Mary was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit, conception occurred and she was no longer a virgin from that point on. She was a virgin prior to conception, afterwards, she was a woman who was pregnant. She was not a pregnant virgin. Nowhere will you find the biblical authors stating that she was a virgin after conception.

So there is no contradiction here.

 

[ChristianT]

When Mary was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit, conception occurred and she was no longer a virgin from that point on. She was a virgin prior to conception, afterwards, she was a woman who was pregnant. She was not a pregnant virgin. Nowhere will you find the biblical authors stating that she was a virgin after conception.

So there is no contradiction here.

But the conception didn't happen the same way ever before nor ever [will] again. And obviously she didn't remain a virgin considering James the Just was Jesus' "brother," in the family sense.

 

[Elioenai26]

But the conception didn't happen the same way ever before nor ever [will] again. And obviously she didn't remain a virgin considering James the Just was Jesus' "brother," in the family sense.

You're exactly right. Jesus' birth was unique. None before Him, nor none after Him will be born the way He was.

What you are referring to is the "means" by which Mary was made pregnant. To say that this case of conception was unique is not to say that it is logically impossible.

If we were to say that God made Mary conceive and then say that she was a virgin "at the same time" that she was pregnant, then this would be an example of a logical impossibility.

See the difference now?

 

[ChristianT]

You're exactly right. Jesus' birth was unique. None before Him, nor none after Him will be born the way He was.

What you are referring to is the "means" by which Mary was made pregnant. To say that this case of conception was unique is not to say that it is logically impossible.

If we were to say that God made Mary conceive and then say that she was a virgin "at the same time" that she was pregnant, then this would be an example of a logical impossibility.

See the difference now?

Sure. Different means to the same end. Logical birth. Of course, it was the birth of the Logos, so of course it's logical lol jk I get it.

 

[Max S Cherry]

If we were to say that God made Mary conceive and then say that she was a virgin "at the same time" that she was pregnant, then this would be an example of a logical impossibility.

See the difference now?

I am jumping in here without trying to answer the original question, but I need to ask if that is really a logical impossibility.

Is a virgin a woman without child? I thought a virgin is defined as a woman (person) who has never had sexual intercourse, and if that is the case and if God did not have sexual intercourse with Mary, she was still a virgin, right? There is no logical impossibility that I see.

 

[Clare73]

When Mary was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit, conception occurred and she was no longer a virgin from that point on. She was a virgin prior to conception, afterwards, she was a woman who was pregnant. She was not a pregnant virgin.

There is no contradiction here.

For two reasons:

1) There is no contradiction between "pregnant" and "virgin".

The definition of virgin is: one who has not had sexual intercourse.

Nowhere will you find the biblical authors stating that she was a virgin after conception.

Are you sure about that?

2) Jesus was born before Joseph and Mary were married (Lk 2:5-6), during the Jewish betrothal period
in which there were no sexual relations.

Mary was both a virgin and pregnant.

You have no warrant, neither in language nor the Biblical record, for saying Mary was not a virgin when Jesus was born.

Jesus was born of a virgin.

In the faith,
Clare

 

[elopez]

Can omnipotence coexist with free will?

It depends on how you define the two.

I think free will in the libertarian sense is incompatible with omnipotence. Then again I think that idea of free will is false to begin with.

 

[Clare73]

It depends on how you define the two.

I think free will in the libertarian sense is incompatible with omnipotence. Then again I think that idea of free will is false to begin with.

Biblically, man's will is not absolutely free.

It is governed by his dispositions.

Biblically, free will is the ability to choose voluntarily, without external constraint.

The omnipotence of God operates within the disposition of men so that they freely and voluntarily choose according as he moves their hearts.

Biblical free will and Biblical omnipotence are not incompatible.

In the faith,
Clare

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Would plantinga argue if god is free to force a man to sin he must actually do so? Just as mans freedom to sin apparently implies he must sin? But god is good so it would be impossible for him to cause a man to sin, no? Therefore his potence is limited by ethics. Omnipotent? Maybe God would say "thats Greek to me." therefore god is not entirely free. A sign of his lack of omnipotence. Therefore if absolute freedom is possible, it may not be god's. All good things come to an end somewhere.

Act II. Enter man. Perhaps he aspires to omnipotence, because he does not comprehend ethics. Thus he is wrapped in the shadow of his own ignorance.

 

[Elioenai26]

For two reasons:

1) There is no contradiction between "pregnant" and "virgin".

The definition of virgin is: one who has not had sexual intercourse.



Are you sure about that?

2) Jesus was born before Joseph and Mary were married (Lk 2:5-6), during the Jewish betrothal period
in which there were no sexual relations.

Mary was both a virgin and pregnant.

You have no warrant, neither in language nor the Biblical record, for saying Mary was not a virgin when Jesus was born.

Jesus was born of a virgin.

In the faith,
Clare

You have completely missed my point. For what I wrote was in response to ChristianT regarding the logical impossibility of a woman being a virgin in the sense of not being pregnant, and at the same time being pregnant.

It is true, Mary was a virgin in the sense that she had not had sexual intercourse with a man. In fact, in this sense, she remained a virgin after Jesus was born and until she had intercourse for the first time with her husband.

If there was ambiguity, then I apologize. I assumed you understood the context in which we were speaking.

 

[Elioenai26]

I am jumping in here without trying to answer the original question, but I need to ask if that is really a logical impossibility.

Is a virgin a woman without child? I thought a virgin is defined as a woman (person) who has never had sexual intercourse, and if that is the case and if God did not have sexual intercourse with Mary, she was still a virgin, right? There is no logical impossibility that I see.

The ambiguity in the connotation of virgin is only present when talking about Mary, for Mary is the only woman to have ever conceived a child without the agency of a man.

In our normal usage of the term "virgin", it refers to a woman who has never had sexual intercourse with a man.

So there is no logical impossibility in stating that Mary was a virgin and was pregnant, if in the sense of the word "virgin", we understand it to mean "a woman who has never been with a man".