Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
I am not arguing against the Trinity doctrine.
What I am arguing against is the idea that doctrine saves anyone.
We are not saved by doctrine.
Saint Steven said: ↑
No one is saved by doctrine.
There can be more than one position on a doctrine. How do you decide which one saves?
So there is one omnipresent God who we call Father. God is spirit, He made himself visible in the man Christ Jesus who we know as the Son and He is present with us in spirit (the Holy Spirit) minute by minute, and day by day. Agree?Without the Person of Jesus, the Atonement is denied:
What Modalism is actually saying is that the separate person of Jesus Christ, the Son, is not real and never died on the cross because He does not exist. A separate Person does not exist. Only the Father (or Almighty God) exists and changes his face to turn into and look like the Son. This is a bold denial of God as a whole (since Jesus Christ is fully 100% God) and a denial of the work of the existing Second Person of God: the Son.
A human example would be that a Father agreed with his son that he would go out and pay an extremely expensive price for criminals to be free from their death sentences, and that his son would own them and they would be given to him; and he would show them compassion. After hearing about freedom from their judicial punishments of death because of the son’s payment, those criminals— instead of going with the son who bought them— believe the father is actually the one who bought them because he morphed into the mode of the son. Furthermore, the criminals claim that the son who actually bought them with his father’s urging does not even exist. They believe only the father exists and shifts into a different looking mode to become his own son, but is still the exact same person as there is not a son person and a father person, but only a father person who shifts modes. He just changed into the son. So the son who actually bought them with an extremely expensive price is denied as well as his hard work earning the payment for them to be free. This is a major insult to the son. But in reality the only way they could be free is if they understand that the son is actually a real person who exists and is not the father, and they follow him. Because since these criminals deny the son who bought them, and instead believe his father shape shifted into a son to become him, that real son that exists separately from his father will deny them in the presence of his father.
Modalism denies Jesus Christ. The Bible teaches that if you deny Jesus Christ (being the Son of God, a separate Person from the Father, and separate from the Person of the Holy Spirit), He will deny you in the presence of God the Father. Jesus Christ Himself said, “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory and that of the Father and the holy angels” (Luke 9:26). Jesus in Luke 12:9 also said, “…but whoever denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God.” So it is obvious that Modalism denies Christ despite the fact they try to claim they promote Jesus and follow Him. The Oneness “Jesus” is a “false Jesus” that does not exist and profanes, and blasphemies the true living, eternal, Son of God. It misplaces credit for propitiation onto the Father, when propitiation was strictly something the Son did. Romans 3:24 says that the redemption is in Christ Jesus, and in verse 25 it says, “God presented Him as the propitiation through faith in His blood, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His restraint God passed over sins previously committed.” It does not say that the Father was the propitiation. 1 John 2:2 explicitly states that Jesus Christ alone was the propitiation: “He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for those of the whole world.” Since the Trinity is true, Modalism is denying God by claiming the Person of the Son does not exist. 1 John 2:23 expresses it simply, “No one who denies the Son can have the Father…” All repentant sinners become Christians who receive salvation. Christians are saved because they call on the name of the Lord and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. If someone repents to a false God that does not exist, one that denies the existence of the Person of the Son, they will not have salvation. Romans 10:9 says, “…if you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.”If a person claims this verse for a Modalistic Jesus, one that denies the Person of the Son, there is no power for salvation.
Modalism denies the Father’s ability to be a righteous judge:
Not only is Modalism an offense to the Person of the Son, but it offends the Person of the Father by ignoring His sacrificial giving of His one and only Son, the Son which He loves so much in relation within the Godhead; and it claims instead that He is the one who died and gave the propitiation for sins. Ignoring the extreme sacrifice the Father allowed to happen to His precious Son is an extreme insult to the love of the Father for sinners that He would allow His own Son (who was willing) to be punished in their place; and not only that, but that the Father is the one who gave out all of the crushing punishment to His own Son. Isaiah 54:6says, “The LORD has punished Him for the iniquity of us all.” Also, 2 Corinthians 5:21 states, “He made the One who did not know sin to be sin for us, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”Modalism denies God this glory and insults the Father. The Father remained pure and untouched by sin and is the righteous judge that gave out His wrath onto Christ. If Modalism is true it means that God existing in one person, being the Father would have became sinful and then killed himself. There would be no righteous judge untouched by sin able to pour out the wrath. It would be the Father becoming sin on His own and then punishing Himself. This idea cancels out a pure and holy Person who is able to remain innocent who can judge sin. In reality, since the Trinity is what is true, there is a righteous and clean judge untouched by sin that was able to pour out His wrath onto Jesus Christ (who was made sin willingly by the Father) and complete the ability for salvation to be completed. To deny the Father’s giving of His real eternally existing Son is blasphemy, and it cancels out the ability for salvation. Such a person as the “god father” of Modalism does not exist and it profanes the true Father’s work. Therefore, Modalism completely denies the true Father.
1 John 2:22 firmly states, “He is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.”
Of course the most basic reason why Modalism cancels out salvation is that if the Trinity is true, it means that God is Three-As-One and anything other than a triune God does not exist. Worshiping a God that does not exist is idolatry. Modalism is a false religion and God commands that there should never be any other gods worshiped besides Him (Exodus 20:3). There is no forgiveness of sins if a person puts their trust into a false god. Just because the name of a false God uses the same titles and names as the true, triune God of Scripture does not mean it is the same God. Matthew 24:24 claims there will be false Christ’s coming, and 1 Corinthians 11:4 says that people can preach a different Jesus and a different spirit and Christians should not put up with it.
The modalistic god denies the Eternal Person of the Son, thus meaning they deny the true God and profane His atonement.
Article Source:
Why Modalism Is A Damnable Heresy
It makes you uncomfortable with the label Trinitarian, I suppose. - lolI believe in 1 God in heaven, on earth and in our hearts. He is Father in heaven, flesh and blood on earth, and His Spirit is omnipresent. God is one, manifest in three persons. He, the Comforter, is with us now. They are deity, and they are One. This is totally scriptural. What does that make me? You tell me.
How are such things measured?I believe a person can initially be saved without knowing about the Trinity, but once that truth is revealed to them, they cannot deny it. For to whom much is given, much is required.
Congratulations, you found the word "doctrine" in the archaic KJV.Actually, I am going with the Bible on this one.
"Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ,
hath not God." (2 John 1:9).
Congratulations, you found the word "doctrine" in the archaic KJV.
Did it tell you what "the doctrine of Christ" is?
Again, how are such things measured?
2 John 9 NIV
Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
Congratulations, you found the word "doctrine" in the archaic KJV.
Did it tell you what "the doctrine of Christ" is?
Again, how are such things measured?
2 John 9 NIV
Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
You are KJO, I get it.Blessings to you in the Lord.
The King James is the pure Word of God for our day. The same markers that are found in the original Hebrew and Greek as showing that it is divine can be found in the King James, as well. Also, a side by side comparison between the KJV and Modern Translations show that the Modern Translations attempt to water down the Trinity, the deity of Christ, the blood atonement, holy living, etc.; The devil's name is placed in Modern Translations for God, or holy things, etc.
See this CF thread here:
Reasons why I believe the KJV is the divinely inspired perfect Word of God.
You are KJO, I get it.
If you care to, address my questions as well. Thanks.
The Bible says Jesus is the "Word of God". (capital W)
Saint Steven said: ↑
Congratulations, you found the word "doctrine" in the archaic KJV.
Did it tell you what "the doctrine of Christ" is?
Again, how are such things measured?
2 John 9 NIV
Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
Are you claiming there are no problems with the KJV?Take for example your NIV that you quoted. Truly one of the most corrupt translations around. For in certain versions of the NIV, and other Modern Translations, they say it is the dragon who is standing on the sea shore in Revelation. This is just evil and wrong.
At Biblehub, it says this for the NIV translation:
Revelation 13:1 NIV
"The dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name." (NIV).
Source:
Biblehub - Revelation 13:1.
See, if you know anything about Bible language, standing on something means that you "own it"; And the devil wants to own you. In the King James, John is standing on the seashore. Yet in many Bible versions the dragon (i.e. the devil) is standing on the seashore.
Why is this a problem?
Let's look at...
Genesis 22:17
"That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the seashore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;" (Genesis 22:17).
Did you catch that? God says to Abraham that He will multiply his seed as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is upon the seashore where he will then possess the gate of his enemies (i.e. the devil and his kingdom). The apostle John who wrote Revelation was Jewish and he was a result of the promised seed of Genesis 22 standing on the seashore in Revelation 13. It was not the dragon or the devil standing on the seashore.
For certain Modern Versions eliminate the part of the passage in Revelation 13:1 that says that John is standing on the seashore (When he refers to himself as "I"). The dragon is clearly in reference to the devil in Revelation.
"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." (Revelation 12:9).
Are you claiming there are no problems with the KJV?
My question was, "How are such things measured?"the point is that "doctrine" is needed otherwise one is not of God.
How are such things measured?
The Trinity is a mystery that even the mature can't explain.
It is well-known that there are problems with EVERY English translation.Are you claiming God's Word is not pure and that He failed to preserve His words for this generation today?
6 "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." (Psalms 12:6-7).
Do you talk down to them as well?I have no problems explaining it. I have had discussions with my brothers at work about it, and they are on the same page with me on it. Those who attempt to learn primarily from men and not God are not going to understand it.
You misunderstand the word "theotes" to fit your Arianism. This word is used only in Col 2:9 and means "deity."The word GODHEAD is "theotes" and means 'divine nature or divinity which means Christ was sent by the Father and was full of the holy spirit. Actually, the word GODHEAD is used ONCE but, the trinitarian the slant imposed by the KJV translators use the word Godhead 3 times. Acts 17:29, Romans 1:20, and Colossians 2:9. The word IS a trinitarian invention. The interlinear uses the word 'deity'
My question was, "How are such things measured?"
Who's doctrine? Which doctrines? How is this claimed "need" for doctrine fulfilled?
Did the thief on the cross next to Jesus have his doctrine straight?
What about the mentally challenged? Does one need a degree from a KJO Bible college to be saved?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?