Can men not obey the truth and be saved?

[The Bible is Right]

John 8:32 Jesus said: And ye SHALL KNOW THE TRUTH, AND THE TRUTH SHALL MAKE YOU FREE.

 

[eldermike]

Bible,

I beleive that says "know" the truth, not obey the truth. The truth is Jesus is God, He lived a perfect sinless life, took on the sins of the world on the cross, shedding the blood that was necessary and suficent for payment of sins of man, died, rose in 3 days, assended to Heaven. There is nothing to obey, it has to be believed.

Jesus did tell us to teach His ways and we should not only teach them but live them, but they will not save you unless you beleive the truth first. If you beleive, you are saved, if you are saved you will want to do His will because He lives in you.

I can't imagine trying to obey God in hopes He would save me for it. Who keeps score? How much do I have to do? I got to tell you, if it's all of it we are all lost and if it's only part, which part, who picks the stuff that is required and decides on the stuff that we can let slide? Is one lie too much, two, three?

Blessings

 

[LightBearer]

What must you do to enjoy this “glorious freedom of the children of God”? Jesus Christ said: “If you remain in my word, you are really my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” (John 8:31, 32) That is the key to freedom—learning and then obeying Christ’s commands and teachings

 

[eldermike]

I agree, once a person is saved they then can enjoy doing the will of God. In fact personal experience has taught me it's the only joy.

 

[The Bible is Right]

[

Originally posted by eldermike
Bible,

I beleive that says "know" the truth, not obey the truth. The truth is Jesus is God, He lived a perfect sinless life, took on the sins of the world on the cross, shedding the blood that was necessary and suficent for payment of sins of man, died, rose in 3 days, assended to Heaven. There is nothing to obey, it has to be believed.

Jesus did tell us to teach His ways and we should not only teach them but live them, but they will not save you unless you beleive the truth first. If you beleive, you are saved, if you are saved you will want to do His will because He lives in you.

I can't imagine trying to obey God in hopes He would save me for it. Who keeps score? How much do I have to do? I got to tell you, if it's all of it we are all lost and if it's only part, which part, who picks the stuff that is required and decides on the stuff that we can let slide? Is one lie too much, two, three?]

Romans 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness,indignation and wrath...

Gal.3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

Gal.5:7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?

1Peter 1:21 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

The truth is to be believed and obeyed in order to be saved!

Heb. 5:8-9 Though he were  a Son, yet learned HE "obedience" by the things which he suffered:

9 And being made perfect, HE became the author of eternal SALVATION UNTO ALL THEM THAT "OBEY" HIM;

 

[The Bible is Right]

Originally posted by eldermike
Bible,



[I can't imagine trying to obey God in hopes He would save me for it. Who keeps score? How much do I have to do? I got to tell you, if it's all of it we are all lost and if it's only part, which part, who picks the stuff that is required and decides on the stuff that we can let slide? Is one lie too much, two, three? ]

Blessings

Heb.5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

With you above statement, and looking at Heb.5:9 do you think that you ought to obey him to be saved?

 

[eldermike]

I agree, We should obey, as all that are saved should do. But you beleive that through obediance we are saved. How are you doing so far, getting close to being saved?

God said: JN 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

 

[The Bible is Right]

[Originally posted by eldermike
I agree, We should obey, as all that are saved should do. But you beleive that through obediance we are saved. How are you doing so far, getting close to being saved?

God said: JN 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

]

What is your definition of believe?

 

[ZiSunka]

Originally posted by eldermike
Bible,

I beleive that says "know" the truth, not obey the truth. The truth is Jesus is God, He lived a perfect sinless life, took on the sins of the world on the cross, shedding the blood that was necessary and suficent for payment of sins of man, died, rose in 3 days, assended to Heaven. There is nothing to obey, it has to be believed.

Jesus did tell us to teach His ways and we should not only teach them but live them, but they will not save you unless you beleive the truth first. If you beleive, you are saved, if you are saved you will want to do His will because He lives in you.

I can't imagine trying to obey God in hopes He would save me for it. Who keeps score? How much do I have to do? I got to tell you, if it's all of it we are all lost and if it's only part, which part, who picks the stuff that is required and decides on the stuff that we can let slide? Is one lie too much, two, three?

Blessings

Preach on Brother!!

 

[The Bible is Right]

Originally posted by lambslove


[Preach on Brother!!]

 

When we stand before the judgement seat of Christ and we didn't do what he told us to do to be saved, will we say "Preach on Brother then"?

 

[LouisBooth]

"When we stand before the judgement seat of Christ and we didn't do what he told us to do to be saved, will we say "Preach on Brother then"?"

NO, he will say, are you saved by the blood of the lamb, you'll say, yup, and that will be it. Nothing else matters, no works, no baptism, nothing. Things you're talking about are SANCTIFICAITON.

 

[Blackhawk]

The Bible is Right,

I believe that yes that all who are saved will have works. This is because:

Phil 1:6b
6 "... that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus."
(NAU)

If we are saved the Holy Spirit is working in us to sanctify us.  Also there is no easy faith in the Bible.  Meaning that to have faith in God is not just something that I can have and just live my life anyway I please.  This is the point of James. 


James 2:17
17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, {being} by itself.
(NAU)

That sure is a popular passage huh?  This passage shows that if we say we have faith but we do not produce works then we really do not have faith. 

James 2:14
14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
(NAU)

So yes we will have works if we are a Christian and because God is working on us we will display at least some of the Fruits of the Spirit.  All of this i think we all believe. 

But do the works save you?  I believe the Bible is equally clear about this when it says no.  That it is by the grace of God through faith in Him. 

First how can we have works without first being saved? 

Isaiah and Paul in Romans makes it perfectly clear that natural man is not seeking after God. 


Isa 64:6
6 For all of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; and all of us wither like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
(NAU)


Rom 3:9-18
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
13 "THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE, WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING," "THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS";
14 "WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS";
15 "THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
17 AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN."
18 "THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES."
(NAU)

And if this is true then how can unregenerated man do any good work?  And if that is so then how can we thus be saved in anyway by good works?  How can we not seek after God but do good works?

Also the Bible is very clear that salvation is by grace through faith. 


Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
(NAU)

Gen 15:6
6 Then he (Abraham) believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.
(NAU)

Rom 3:28
28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
(NAU)

John Salhamer in his introduction to his book "The Pentetauch as a Narrative"  suggests that the whole Bible is about how we must have faith or believe in God and only then can we be saved.  He claims that possibly the Pentateuch did not support being saved by works of the law but instead being saved by faith.  That it was a contrast between two characters. 

Abraham who:

Gen 15:6
6 Then he (Abraham) believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.
(NAU)

And Moses who did not believe.

Num 20:12
12 But the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "Because you have not believed Me, to treat Me as holy in the sight of the sons of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly into the land which I have given them."
(NAU)

So as he puts it " The author uses the life of Abraham, not Moses to illustrate that one can fullfill the righteous requirements of the Law.  In choosing Abraham and not Moses, the author shows that 'keeping the law' means 'believing in God' just as Abraham believed and was counted righteouss." (Gen 15:6 again)

And this is further shown in Genesis. 

Gen 26:5
5 because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws."
(NAU)

The author shows that this could not of meant that Abraham obeyed laws that did not exist already but by living a life of faith he "kept the law." 

So I hope that this shows that even from the earliest of God's working with us that God was showing that what He wanted was our faith in Him.  That if we are going to "keep the law" or be saved that faith is what is required not doing works because we can't do it.  (romans 3) But that James shows that a natural outcome of a faith in God is good works. 

So throughout all of God's revelatons to us He requires faith from us which is only by His grace (Eph 2:8,9) and that is the only way of salvation because works are never enough. 

blackhawk

 

[eldermike]

Louis, Blackhawk,

Amen brothers

 

[Thunderchild]

James 2:14
14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can (that) faith save him?

Oh very nice. "that" isn't in the Greek at all.

Ephesians 2:10 for we are his workmanship, created in Chirst Jesus unto good works, which God before prepared that we should walk in them

From Ephesians 2:1 through to Elphesians 2:11 is addressed to people who used to be in the flesh, and who formerly walked subject to sin.

Romans 3:28 is its own answer - not by works of law

As if that wasn't enough, there is verse 31: "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid, we establish the law. (again, there is no THAT after the comma.)

Gen 26:5
5 because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws."
(NAU)

The author shows that this could not of meant that Abraham obeyed laws that did not exist already but by living a life of faith he "kept the law."

And I should believe this author over James because...... and having established (so it is said) that Abraham had no laws and statutes to keep, how did he show that Abraham kept the Lord's charge and commandment to have been of no effect or benefit?

Of course, the Bible is entirely wrong when it says we are saved by baptism, the gospel, obedience, etc and so forth. And it is still more wrong when it quotes Jesus as saying that merely being a believer is not enough - one must be a disciple before the truth can set one free from sin.

 

[Thunderchild]

Faith is perfected (or brought to maturity) by works. Maybe I should be satisfied with an imperfect/immature faith?

 

[eldermike]

JN 6:28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"

JN 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

 

[ZiSunka]

Originally posted by The Bible is Right


 

When we stand before the judgement seat of Christ and we didn't do what he told us to do to be saved, will we say "Preach on Brother then"?

I don't think we will say a thing. God will know who is and who isn't saved, without us having to open our mouths.

I don't know about the God you serve, but the one I serve saves us, not because of the great things we do for him, but because of his mercy. Titus 3:4-5.

 

[Thunderchild]

NO, he will say, are you saved by the blood of the lamb, you'll say, yup, and that will be it. Nothing else matters, no works, no baptism, nothing. Things you're talking about are SANCTIFICAITON.

Why thankee, LouisBooth, very kind of you to point that out.

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Never would have realised that we were saved by sanctification if you didn't say that.

1Timothy 6:17-19

Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

My goodness. Do good works so that they may lay hold on eternal life even.

Romans 2:4-7 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: Oh dear, there it is again, right here in verse 7.

 

[eldermike]

RO 3:21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- 26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

 

[Blackhawk]

Originally posted by Thunderchild
 
Oh very nice. "that" isn't in the Greek at all. 

You are right. The ones who did the translation of the New American standard bible put it in there for clarity.  Things of this nature occur much since it is a translation and things are sometimes implied in one language and not another.  When one goes from one language to another one has to look at it in

Young's literal translation also uses "that" and the NIV uses "such."  The revised standard uses "his." Also the word "doth" in the KJV is not in the original greek.  They all did it for clarity since it better shows n English what is meant in the greek. 

[ Ephesians 2:10 for we are his workmanship, created in Chirst Jesus unto good works, which God before prepared that we should walk in them [/B]

Okay God predestined us to good works.  We should do good works.  Okay.  I do not see where this verse is saying that one is saved by or through those works.   In fact it says the opposite.  But it does say that once we are saved that then we can do good works. 

From Ephesians 2:1 through to Elphesians 2:11 is addressed to people who used to be in the flesh, and who formerly walked subject to sin. [/B]

Again I do not see where the verses say that we are saved by or through works.  The scripture just says that God created us to do good works.  I think we all believe that. 

Romans 3:28 is its own answer - not by works of law

As if that wasn't enough, there is verse 31: "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid, we establish the law. (again, there is no THAT after the comma.)  [/B]

[/B][/QUOTE] Rom 3:27-31

Again I do not see your point when i look at scripture.  Here it is. 


27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
29 Or is God {the God} of Jews only? Is He not {the God} of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,
30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.
31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.
(NAU)

Can you explain your point again? because it seems clear to me that Paul was saying that we are justified by faith alone but that the law is still is still valid for many things.  Basically even though we are not saved by the law the law is still important and we can learn much from it. 

And I should believe this author over James because...... [/B]

 

No one has told you to do that.  But with your views are you going to believe James over Paul? 

and having established (so it is said) that Abraham had no laws and statutes to keep, how did he show that Abraham kept the Lord's charge and commandment to have been of no effect or benefit? [/B]

I thought I had showed this already.  He believed in the Lord. 

Gen 15:6
6 Then he (Abraham) believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.
(NAU)

Of course, the Bible is entirely wrong when it says we are saved by baptism, the gospel, obedience, etc and so forth. And it is still more wrong when it quotes Jesus as saying that merely being a believer is not enough - one must be a disciple before the truth can set one free from sin. [/B]

Okay but first you never answered my question about how can you be a slave to sin and choose to do good works? 

Also I do not see James saying what you said he said.  Again he is showing how a faith that does not produce good works is not a true faith at all so it does not save. 

James 2:18
18 But someone may  say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."
(NAU)

Why would he say this if he was trying to say that works save you?  It seems very clear to me that he is showing that we can tell one has a true faith by the works he does.  or at least that if one says he has faith but does no works then he is deceiving himself and does not have a true faith. 

And also "the gospel" is that:


John 3:16-18
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(NAU)

So we are saved by the gospel and that is that if we have faith in God then we will be saved.  Notice also that the one who is condemmed is so because of a lack of belief. 

Oh and I will let you show me why we have to be physically baptized in order to be saved and why obedience beyond being obedient in placing our faith in Jesus saves us.