LDS Can LDS add teachings to the word of God?

[dzheremi]

That being said after we repent and know the way of righteousness we should no longer sin.

Meanwhile, fast-forward to the very next chapter after the one you quoted of St. Paul's epistle to the Romans, and what do we find?

14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.​

Gee, it's almost like we do or know isn't in itself good enough, because we can (and do) know intellectually what is right, even as we practice other things!

This is why the graceless, commandment-filled theology and soteriology of Mormonism doesn't work, by the way. Only in our Lord's coming and His life, death, and glorious resurrection do we find the answer to our problem(s), not in our own knowledge of what we are to do, or our ability to repent of it...and I write this even as a Christian of a very traditional Church (est. 1st century AD, during the lifetimes of the apostles) which keeps to the traditional sacrament of confession very stringently.

This is what I was trying to get at in the "Come Unto Christ" thread (in which you participated) when I said that Christians don't have 'ordinances', by the way...it's not that we don't have things that we are to do, like baptism, confession and so forth, but that we do not look at them in themselves as securing salvation. Only Christ our Lord, God, and Savior does that or can do that. The sacraments/mysteries are our means of participation in and with God as workers in His Vineyard, "partaking in the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4), so they are in themselves not 'optional' or to be discarded, but they do not in themselves save anyone, or else we could say that everyone who has ever received communion in the Orthodox Church is thereby saved. Yet the scriptures themselves testify otherwise when they warn of receiving unworthily (1 Corinthians 11:29), and indeed the liturgy itself testifies otherwise, when the priest washes his hands and prays for the worthy partaking of holy communion on his part, the part of his servants, and the part of the congregation, and testifies that each one's partaking of communion be on his own soul (i.e., he is washing his hands of any who are deceitful towards God and partake when they should not).

As I understand it, the Mormon "ordinances" are absolutes, and even performed on dead people for that very reason (e.g., baptism for the dead) -- dead people who thus have no real way of cooperation with God according to traditional Christianity, which does not believe in the soteriology of Mormonism. (After death preaching and acceptance of Mormonism; for Christians, the Harrowing of Hell was a one-time event undertaken by our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ, not repeating or needing to be repeated by anyone, since of course Christ did not mess it up the first time!)

 

[Ironhold]

As I understand it, the Mormon "ordinances" are absolutes, and even performed on dead people for that very reason (e.g., baptism for the dead) -- dead people who thus have no real way of cooperation with God according to traditional Christianity, which does not believe in the soteriology of Mormonism.

Nope.

People will have the right to accept or reject, even with Christ right in front of them.

 

[dzheremi]

Nope.

People will have the right to accept or reject, even with Christ right in front of them.

What? Where did I ever claim that you believed otherwise?

Are you going to tell me now that baptism is not seen as prerequisite for salvation in Mormonism in an absolute way, such that the lack of it is the justification for the baptism of the dead in your religion? If so, then I'd like to hear what other justification you may have for the practice, as that's the only one I've ever actually heard from Mormons.

 

[mmksparbud]

You will be baptized!! Whether you want to or not! The dead can't say no!

 

[He is the way]

You will be baptized!! Whether you want to or not! The dead can't say no!

Of course they can accept or reject the proxy baptism just like they can accept or reject Christ's proxy atonement for their sins.

 

[He is the way]

Meanwhile, fast-forward to the very next chapter after the one you quoted of St. Paul's epistle to the Romans, and what do we find?

14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.​

Gee, it's almost like we do or know isn't in itself good enough, because we can (and do) know intellectually what is right, even as we practice other things!

This is why the graceless, commandment-filled theology and soteriology of Mormonism doesn't work, by the way. Only in our Lord's coming and His life, death, and glorious resurrection do we find the answer to our problem(s), not in our own knowledge of what we are to do, or our ability to repent of it...and I write this even as a Christian of a very traditional Church (est. 1st century AD, during the lifetimes of the apostles) which keeps to the traditional sacrament of confession very stringently.

This is what I was trying to get at in the "Come Unto Christ" thread (in which you participated) when I said that Christians don't have 'ordinances', by the way...it's not that we don't have things that we are to do, like baptism, confession and so forth, but that we do not look at them in themselves as securing salvation. Only Christ our Lord, God, and Savior does that or can do that. The sacraments/mysteries are our means of participation in and with God as workers in His Vineyard, "partaking in the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4), so they are in themselves not 'optional' or to be discarded, but they do not in themselves save anyone, or else we could say that everyone who has ever received communion in the Orthodox Church is thereby saved. Yet the scriptures themselves testify otherwise when they warn of receiving unworthily (1 Corinthians 11:29), and indeed the liturgy itself testifies otherwise, when the priest washes his hands and prays for the worthy partaking of holy communion on his part, the part of his servants, and the part of the congregation, and testifies that each one's partaking of communion be on his own soul (i.e., he is washing his hands of any who are deceitful towards God and partake when they should not).

As I understand it, the Mormon "ordinances" are absolutes, and even performed on dead people for that very reason (e.g., baptism for the dead) -- dead people who thus have no real way of cooperation with God according to traditional Christianity, which does not believe in the soteriology of Mormonism. (After death preaching and acceptance of Mormonism; for Christians, the Harrowing of Hell was a one-time event undertaken by our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ, not repeating or needing to be repeated by anyone, since of course Christ did not mess it up the first time!)

Yes all have sinned, but through the atonement we can be saved so read on:

(New Testament | Romans 8:1 - 16)

1 THERE is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

 

[He is the way]

Have you?
How many times?

This discussion is about gospel doctrine, not personal worthiness. Jesus will decide who is worthy of His atonement and who is not.

 

[drstevej]

So the atonement is a reward?

 

[He is the way]

So the atonement is a reward?[/OUOTE]

The atonement is a gift given to those who Jesus Christ deems worthy of it:
(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 5:10)

10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

 

[dzheremi]

The trouble here is that the Mormon "Keeping the commandments" is very different than the Christian "keeping the commandments", since for the Mormons it includes things like going to the Mormon temple to perform their occult rituals, the baptism of dead people, polygamous marriage in heaven, becoming a god, and all kinds of other stuff that no Christian would touch with a ten foot pole.

So posting any of this stuff about "Keeping the commandments" and so on is not going to be rejected by any Christian. What we'll rightly reject is the idea that these include any of the Mormon-specific stuff.

It'd be pretty neat if any Mormon here would understand that disagreeing with the Mormon(ized) version of XYZ that you've read into the scriptures is not disagreeing with the scriptures -- it's disagreeing with the reading, which it is right to do because in all cases the Mormon-specific reading is invented by Mormons themselves to justify their practices and beliefs, and is not found in early Christianity at all except perhaps in the descriptions of pagan and heretical rituals and beliefs by those apostles, disciples, and early church fathers who cautioned us to reject the same.

 

[He is the way]

The trouble here is that the Mormon "Keeping the commandments" is very different than the Christian "keeping the commandments", since for the Mormons it includes things like going to the Mormon temple to perform their occult rituals, the baptism of dead people, polygamous marriage in heaven, becoming a god, and all kinds of other stuff that no Christian would touch with a ten foot pole.

So posting any of this stuff about "Keeping the commandments" and so on is not going to be rejected by any Christian. What we'll rightly reject is the idea that these include any of the Mormon-specific stuff.

It'd be pretty neat if any Mormon here would understand that disagreeing with the Mormon(ized) version of XYZ that you've read into the scriptures is not disagreeing with the scriptures -- it's disagreeing with the reading, which it is right to do because in all cases the Mormon-specific reading is invented by Mormons themselves to justify their practices and beliefs, and is not found in early Christianity at all except perhaps in the descriptions of pagan and heretical rituals and beliefs by those apostles, disciples, and early church fathers who cautioned us to reject the same.

All people need to do is keep the Biblical commandments. There are great blessings given to the people who keep the Biblical commandments.

 

[dzheremi]

Wait a minute: So you don't need to join the Mormon religion and participate in their rituals?

Well that's a relief!

I mean, it completely contradicts everything every other Mormon has ever told me about what it means to attain salvation in the context of Mormonism, but hey...if anyone asks, I'll tell them that He Is The Way told me so. Thanks.

 

[He is the way]

Wait a minute: So you don't need to join the Mormon religion and participate in their rituals?

Well that's a relief!

I mean, it completely contradicts everything every other Mormon has ever told me about what it means to attain salvation in the context of Mormonism, but hey...if anyone asks, I'll tell them that He Is The Way told me so. Thanks.

You said: "So you don't need to join the Mormon religion and participate in their rituals?" Did you have to suffer like Jesus Christ to be forgiven of your sins? No, you just need to repent of your sins, do works meet for repentance, keep the Biblical commandments and accept the gifts.

 

[mmksparbud]

Of course they can accept or reject the proxy baptism just like they can accept or reject Christ's proxy atonement for their sins.

Do you know of a corpse that said no?

 

[Rescued One]

God has a body and a spirit.

What are you doing now? Throwing out random thoughts?

Mormonism:
All humans in mortality or exalted to godhood, have a body and a spirit.

The Mormon godhead consists of three gods: Father, Son and Holy Ghost. How the LDS Holy Ghost ended up with godhood, I have no idea!

 

[Rescued One]

You said: "So you don't need to join the Mormon religion and participate in their rituals?" Did you have to suffer like Jesus Christ to be forgiven of your sins? No, you just need to repent of your sins, do works meet for repentance, keep the Biblical commandments and accept the gifts.

If you don't do the temple ordinances and keep covenants that you are told to make while in the temple, you can't have eternal life. No single Mormons and no non-Mormons can have eternal life. You also have to learn the signs and tokens.

In the temple you are washed from "the sins of this generation" even though baptism and obedience should have taken care of that.

 

[Rescued One]

Do you know of a corpse that said no?

The corpse isn't there! It's in the grave until the resurrection.

 

[mmksparbud]

The corpse isn't there! It's in the grave until the resurrection.

We know that---apparently they don't! So, the dead get baptized whether they like it or not. Captive audience.

 

[Rescued One]

We know that---apparently they don't! So, the dead get baptized whether they like it or not. Captive audience.

No, per Mormonism, the Spirit is given a choice of whether or not to accept the requirements and ordinances of Mormonism. Remember that those same Spirits had to make decisions before coming to earth.

 

[mmksparbud]

No, per Mormonism, the Spirit is given a choice of whether or not to accept the requirements and ordinances of Mormonism. Remember that those same Spirits had to make decisions before coming to earth.

Oh, yah--forgot. OK---so, has a spirit ever said no to baptism?