Can I question some things I hear, in our Charismatic movement?

Alive_Again · Jan 15, 2014

but the poor are told they must give, or be judged, and tithe is not even a NT teaching.

In some places they do, but in many they do not. The poor aren't stupid just because they're poor. They have as much sense as anyone else. They have free will and if they go somewhere and they are uncomfortable in the way the offerings are taken, they can go somewhere else.

It is NT teaching to give, and as far as I see, the NT requirement exceeds the demands of the OT. It's not done by the law, but generosity and giving from such things as you have is entirely scriptural. It's a good thing!

jiminpa · Jan 15, 2014

Frogster said:
sorry, but it is extraction, when the poor are told directly, they will be cursed for not tithing, as the preacher quotes mal 3, that is a fact.

Is God not the provider for the poor as well, or do you condemn them to not only be poor now, but have no greater hope than themselves for the future as well? I tithed when I was living on minimum wage and it was God who saw to it that what I had was enough. If the poor trust in God and not in money enough to release their money to God He is faithful to not let them beg bread. But if it is their own hand that they trust and they hang on to their treasures then He will let them remain limited to their own hand. God can give provision to the poor out of nothing. I would much rather train myself to trust Him than to train myself to trust me. Tithing trains us to trust God's provision. Withholding the tithe trains us to trust what we see.

Galilee63 · Jan 16, 2014

My first time posting on this Thread given am new to Christian Forum.

This brings to mind a Husband and Wife (now in their 70's) whom I came across after 20 odd years that I had last seen when with one of their Daughter's I had been friends with during High School.

They raised a Family of 7 Children in an old house in the scrub, had a cow to milk, chooks, the Father had a low income, his Wife 'chose' to work for a beautiful giving Charity in town for 40 years plus, while helping sometimes at the School and being around for the Children growing up.

When I saw this couple at Church while visiting back home a couple of weeks ago: I saw Our Lady Mary's Humility reflected in her eyes and face, and Jesus joy, sense of humour and self discipline in Her Husband!

These people are the 'real' Christian Teachers in Life and if we are lucky, happen to meet them or cross paths!

Happy New Year to my Brothers and Sisters in Christ

Frogster · Jan 16, 2014

Alive_Again said:
In some places they do, but in many they do not. The poor aren't stupid just because they're poor. They have as much sense as anyone else. They have free will and if they go somewhere and they are uncomfortable in the way the offerings are taken, they can go somewhere else.

It is NT teaching to give, and as far as I see, the NT requirement exceeds the demands of the OT. It's not done by the law, but generosity and giving from such things as you have is entirely scriptural. It's a good thing!

what? you think the fear thing using mal 3, is only in some places?

and please, don't imply I think the poor are stupid.

give is cool, but scripture manipulation to extraction is not cool. You even said that people do that with text, in your other post.

and for the most part, whenever the tithe word, seed, give, or whatever word is used, 99% of the time, it is for the preacher that is manipulating for it for HIS needs, all while paul, talking to ELDERS about working, quoted Jesus in Acts 20:35, about....ummmm...the poor! As paul also spoke of not burdening the poor, as he for the most part worked, as his companions worked with him too, so bro, you really may want to study into pauline theology and the money issue.

thanks, have a great day, frog.

Frogster · Jan 16, 2014

jiminpa said:
Is God not the provider for the poor as well, or do you condemn them to not only be poor now, but have no greater hope than themselves for the future as well? I tithed when I was living on minimum wage and it was God who saw to it that what I had was enough. If the poor trust in God and not in money enough to release their money to God He is faithful to not let them beg bread. But if it is their own hand that they trust and they hang on to their treasures then He will let them remain limited to their own hand. God can give provision to the poor out of nothing. I would much rather train myself to trust Him than to train myself to trust me. Tithing trains us to trust God's provision. Withholding the tithe trains us to trust what we see.

why did Paul not extract from the poor? Why did he say to the poor in 2 Cor 8, don't give if you don't have, i don't want you burdened, and he said to only give if there is an abundance, most likely directed to the wealthier class of corinth?

not to mention, read other passages about Paul not burdening the poor, read 1 thess 2, 2 thess 3, 2 Cor 11, oh my...I will just repost in a minute, more text...

Frogster · Jan 16, 2014

working apostles... Watchman Nee said, the apostles did not go around begging, they had faith.

Paul, Timothy, Titus, Barnabas, Silas, Priscila and Aquilla, working, while Paul was being beat up all the time, and bringing the gospel to the world. Is pastor busier than Paul?

1 Thess 2:9 For you remember, brothers, our labor and toil: we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you, while we proclaimed to you the gospel of God.

2 Thess 3:8 nor did we eat anyone's bread without paying for it, but with toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you.

Acts 20:33, said to elders, I coveted no one's silver or gold or apparel. 34 You yourselves know that these hands ministered to my necessities and to those who were with me. 35 In all things I have shown you that by working hard in this way we must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.

Acts 18:3 and because he was of the same trade he stayed with them and worked, for they were tentmakers by trade

1 Cor 4:12 and we labor, working with our own hands. When reviled, we bless; when persecuted, we endure;

1 Cor 9:6 Or is it only Barnabas and I who have no right to refrain from working for a living?

2 Cor 6:5 beatings, imprisonments, riots, labors, sleepless nights, hunger;

2 Cor 11:23 Are they servants of Christ? I am a better oneI am talking like a madmanwith far greater labors, far more imprisonments, with countless beatings, and often near death.

2 Cor 11:27 in toil and hardship, through many a sleepless night, in hunger and thirst, often without food, in cold and exposure.

GeeI dont want your moneyCHILDREN DONT SAVE FOR THE PARENTS, BUT TODAY, PASTOR HAS IT ALL BACKWARDS!

2 Cor 12:14 Here for the third time I am ready to come to you. And I will not be a burden, for I seek not what is yours (possessions) but you. For children are not obligated to save up for their parents, but parents for their children.

Phil 4:11, not out of need did he speak, he kept that to himself, going hungry leaning on grace, before asking, 4:17 "I dont seek it", and he called it a gift, not extraction, and he did not go around "seeking".
And the little help he got, he felt like it was robbery, because he really didn't even want that.

2 Cor 11:8 I robbed other churches by accepting support from them in order to serve you

Frogster · Jan 16, 2014

jiminpa said:
Is God not the provider for the poor as well, or do you condemn them to not only be poor now, but have no greater hope than themselves for the future as well? I tithed when I was living on minimum wage and it was God who saw to it that what I had was enough. If the poor trust in God and not in money enough to release their money to God He is faithful to not let them beg bread. But if it is their own hand that they trust and they hang on to their treasures then He will let them remain limited to their own hand. God can give provision to the poor out of nothing. I would much rather train myself to trust Him than to train myself to trust me. Tithing trains us to trust God's provision. Withholding the tithe trains us to trust what we see.

also, due note, I am talking about the extraction methods, people are welcome to give where, and to whom they want to, unless you can show where I contradict that. You won't, because I never said they can't.

jiminpa · Jan 16, 2014

Frogster said:
also, due note, I am talking about the extraction methods, people are welcome to give where, and to whom they want to, unless you can show where I contradict that. You won't, because I never said they can't.

You may never have said it explicitly, you are good with weasel words. You use implication and innuendo. You imply that anyone who teaches about tithing or giving is extracting money from the poor. You like to cherry pick prooftexts, but Paul also said that the worker is worthy of his hire in the context of preachers and church leadership.

Andrea411 · Jan 16, 2014

Galilee63 said:
My first time posting on this Thread given am new to Christian Forum.

This brings to mind a Husband and Wife (now in their 70's) whom I came across after 20 odd years that I had last seen when with one of their Daughter's I had been friends with during High School.

They raised a Family of 7 Children in an old house in the scrub, had a cow to milk, chooks, the Father had a low income, his Wife 'chose' to work for a beautiful giving Charity in town for 40 years plus, while helping sometimes at the School and being around for the Children growing up.

When I saw this couple at Church while visiting back home a couple of weeks ago: I saw Our Lady Mary's Humility reflected in her eyes and face, and Jesus joy, sense of humour and self discipline in Her Husband!

These people are the 'real' Christian Teachers in Life and if we are lucky, happen to meet them or cross paths!

Happy New Year to my Brothers and Sisters in Christ

Yes, walking the walk of faith for a lifetime is a far better teacher than words or debates. IDK about seeing Mary in someone's eyes, but I have seen people and known they were Christian even before speaking to them. The Holy Spirit in me recognizing another who is filled with His Holy Spirit.
If you're Catholic and new to these forums, your thoughts on Mary would be welcome on the Catholic forums. Not so much in the Charismatic section. I know its easy to end up in the wrong place bc you look at the list of topics. There is a Catholic Renewal (Charismatic Catholics) section within the Spirit-filled section you may want to visit. May the Lord bless your time here and encourage you as you try to minister life to others. God bless, andrea

Just4Jesus · Jan 16, 2014

Frogster said:
This non-inflammatory post, it is broad, and general, not directed at anyone on our forum, but to the events in the movement, and the debate in the movement.

Often when I, or others challenge or doubt, a prophecy, a person, or miraculous stories, we are met with with, sorry, but what I now view as redundant reply.

The person not liking what I say, will reply by sayingthere are miracles in the Bible!

To that I say, sure, but we know they are true, because they are in the Bible. But why does that mean I or others cant doubt, or question, some of these, elaborate stories, just because there are miracles in the bible?

There are quite a few texts to prove that people, in the church, from your own number, men (and I guess women) will arise, and be wolves, and the motive is shown, to draw disciples for themselves. What better way to do that, gather disciples, than present yourself, as this super powerful person, with all kinds of great secrets to the higher spiritual life?

Acts 20:29 I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them.

Serving their own appetites, preying on the naïve, who believe everything, usually young converts, are often awed by flattery, as some sell prophecies, or certainly free style wield them around, a little to quickly, in my opinion..

Rom 16:18 For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.

Said by Peter also, making up stories, and greed is the motive, as they collect funds, and sell their wares, books, CDs, conference fees etc. These that call themselves 'teachers".

2 Peter 2:3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

Ok, so can I test everything, as the text says to do, do I weigh prophecies like the text says to do, or just sit back, and think to myself, well, there are miracles in the Bible, so these folks have to be telling the truth?

Thanks, frog.

Best post I've seen all day!

TasManOfGod · Jan 16, 2014

Frogster I perceive that the only christian whose opinion you are happy with is yourself

jiminpa · Jan 16, 2014

Frogster said:
sorry, but it is extraction, when the poor are told directly, they will be cursed for not tithing, as the preacher quotes mal 3, that is a fact.

They will be cursed for not tithing, if in no other way by exercising their own understanding over faith in God and learning to continue walking by sight over faith.

I know you love to discard anything in the Old Testament that you don't like, and I've noticed that you don't limit it to the Old Testament either. But I'll play along a little longer. When Jesus told the Pharisees that they should have continued to tithe and also care for the poor was that in the Old Testament or in the New Testament? When Jesus said that where you hide your treasure you hide your heart was He speaking in the counting house, or in the street? Do we give to God because the maker of all things needs our money or because we need to release control to Him?

Andrea411 · Jan 16, 2014

jiminpa said:
They will be cursed for not tithing, if in no other way by exercising their own understanding over faith in God and learning to continue walking by sight over faith.

I know you love to discard anything in the Old Testament that you don't like, and I've noticed that you don't limit it to the Old Testament either. But I'll play along a little longer. When Jesus told the Pharisees that they should have continued to tithe and also care for the poor was that in the Old Testament or in the New Testament? When Jesus said that where you hide your treasure you hide your heart was He speaking in the counting house, or in the street? Do we give to God because the maker of all things needs our money or because we need to release control to Him?

there was never a tithe on wages - even in the OT.. Part of the new covenant is that our hearts are circumcised and we give freely of what we have. Money, time or it could be praise… if someone owes the bank for their home, it is not their money to give, it has already been promised to another. You may argue they shouldn't have gone into debt but since they have they need to get their own bills paid before they start supporting a building project or the minister.
Do you realize how many people do not go to church bc they feel like they have to tithe?? Is that what the Lord wants? HEARING is what makes BELIEVING….. I believe in giving but it is something a mature Christian understands, not a new Christian. It should never be the emphasis on Sunday mornings while their are new Christians and unbelievers. How many a spouse does not want to go to church bc it will cost him 10% of his income? This is not part of the gospel, it is part of a ministry and should be handled carefully.

Frogster · Jan 16, 2014

jiminpa said:
You may never have said it explicitly, you are good with weasel words. You use implication and innuendo. You imply that anyone who teaches about tithing or giving is extracting money from the poor. You like to cherry pick prooftexts, but Paul also said that the worker is worthy of his hire in the context of preachers and church leadership.

Prooftext? me or you? look at all I posted, look at all of the theology I posted. You on the other hand, ignore the important part of 1 cor 9, Paul worked, he thought it an honor to work no obstacles in fron of the gospel, he says so right in 9, and 9:6 confirms, "Barnabas and I work", see also 4:12, as took the high road, in his rebuttal to those who challenged him, so lets go by the whole of the chapter, and theology, then we won't have prooftexting. Paul was no Gospel peddler, see 2 Cor 2:17.

Oh, by the way, did you know 1 Cor 9 was a rebuttal? Read 2 Cor 11, for a similar rebuttal, Paul proved his love for the Corinthians, by showing how he worked, unlike todays' money extractors.

Now, as far as Timothy, did you know he wroked also? And he was a timid fearful, sickly person, but even Timothy was taught about being conservative, on the money issue, and he worked too, text available upon request.

Oh, Titus, Silas, a prophet of God, worked too, as well as Priscila and Aquilla, church LEADERS...

My, a pattern evolves here, Acta 20 also, direcred to UMMMMMM..ELDERS!

They need to get a day job!

So again, please give me more to go on, than what you have given so far.

Frogster · Jan 16, 2014

ChristyLee said:
Best post I've seen all day!

Thanks ChristyLee!

Frogster · Jan 16, 2014

TasManOfGod said:
Frogster I perceive that the only christian whose opinion you are happy with is yourself

Frogster · Jan 16, 2014

jiminpa said:
They will be cursed for not tithing, if in no other way by exercising their own understanding over faith in God and learning to continue walking by sight over faith.

I know you love to discard anything in the Old Testament that you don't like, and I've noticed that you don't limit it to the Old Testament either. But I'll play along a little longer. When Jesus told the Pharisees that they should have continued to tithe and also care for the poor was that in the Old Testament or in the New Testament? When Jesus said that where you hide your treasure you hide your heart was He speaking in the counting house, or in the street? Do we give to God because the maker of all things needs our money or because we need to release control to Him?

ummmm..cursed for not tithing to a temple in israel, that is gone, and a gone priesthood?

ok, then they are cursed for eating shrimp, lobster, crab, catfish, pork.

you can't hold up a tithing ordinance, and ignore the food ordinances, actually they were bigger in Judaism, that the tithing, Jesus did not tithe, he was a craftsman, so was Paul, a non tither in judaism.

Frogster · Jan 16, 2014

Andrea411 said:
there was never a tithe on wages - even in the OT.. Part of the new covenant is that our hearts are circumcised and we give freely of what we have. Money, time or it could be praise if someone owes the bank for their home, it is not their money to give, it has already been promised to another. You may argue they shouldn't have gone into debt but since they have they need to get their own bills paid before they start supporting a building project or the minister.
Do you realize how many people do not go to church bc they feel like they have to tithe?? Is that what the Lord wants? HEARING is what makes BELIEVING.. I believe in giving but it is something a mature Christian understands, not a new Christian. It should never be the emphasis on Sunday mornings while their are new Christians and unbelievers. How many a spouse does not want to go to church bc it will cost him 10% of his income? This is not part of the gospel, it is part of a ministry and should be handled carefully.

well said...

Frogster · Jan 16, 2014

jiminpa said:
You may never have said it explicitly, you are good with weasel words. You use implication and innuendo. You imply that anyone who teaches about tithing or giving is extracting money from the poor. You like to cherry pick prooftexts, but Paul also said that the worker is worthy of his hire in the context of preachers and church leadership.

and paaaalleeeeease don't insult an amphibian, and reduce him to a weasel status!

at least go to the subordinate, but closer kin, and call me a toad, but sir, i am no furry creature!:o

Frogster · Jan 19, 2014

I have enjoyed the thread, thanks to all who posted, frog.

Can I question some things I hear, in our Charismatic movement?

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