Can I debate here?

[IntoTheCrimsonSky]

Oh, and hi Moriah! Long time no speak. Glad to see you seem to be doing better than when I last saw you.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Is this the defaming you are referring? This is a complete lie.

Well lets see we had Your Neighbor over hear comparing us to thieves and criminals and we have doc saying:

Hi CatMommy,

Please know that you are welcome to join us. You have already stated the difference between this forum and the new one. It is that kind of behavior, more than any name, that caused the split. Your behavior here has always been exemplary and you will always be welcome. You are indeed a SDA by any standard that may be used and as such are entitled to membership here. http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=46018746&postcount=14

Of course it began by catmommy saying:

So I can still post here?

I missed the big uprising (thank the Lord) but I wanted to be sure I could still post here. I consider myself a moderate, but the forum over there is a little to heated/controversal for me. I am an agree to disagree type of girl on theology. I will not answer questions that I can not give a traditional view on. So if I play nice, can I stay? To place moderates over there with former Adventist is kind of a stretch, at least for me!
http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=45998968&postcount=1

I have no idea what those heated conversations were but it seemed to be completely accepted as truth. Yet you say I lie. So what is your evidence for your statement?

 

[mva1985]

We want a more open forum, my problem Andrew is that you have apologized here for what you said there, which is really only a start. How about correcting what you said there and acknowledging that you said something there that defamed us something that was not based upon reality.

That is if you are going to try and split your time between the forums we would appreciate it if you did not defame us when you go over to the TA forum even though they will give you more respect for speaking against us and saying we are barbarians.

RC,

This is the evidence for my statement. You make a very broad statement.

You are defaming trads by your remark and you want to make sure that he doesn't defame the progs, but I suppose you think it is all right for you to do it.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

RC,

This is the evidence for my statement. You make a very broad statement.

You are defaming trads by your remark and you want to make sure that he doesn't defame the progs, but I suppose you think it is all right for you to do it.

I don't know where you have been the last couple of months MVA but representing the facts is not defamation. That is why I produced the evidence, though much more could have been produced. I mean really, to a TSDA if you speak against a PSDA you will get more respect from them because the TSDA has the truth and the PSDA is an interloper stealing people away from the SDA church. If that was not the problem then there would have been no need for seperate forums or subforums.

 

[AndrewK788]

Personally, I think the biggest problem is that we all make such gross general statements about the other side. RC, what you just said about the TSDA view of Progs is true for some of the trads I admit, but certainly not all of them. And I also know that most progs really have nothing against the trads except the way they feel they are discriminated against and "defamed" etc. I admit these feelings are sometimes merited, but I think all too often the cause of such conflicts are these small exchanges where we fling general statements back and forth at one another. The fact is neither group of SDAs is quite what the other one claims it to be!

That's why these arguments infuriate me the way they do. I came into CF without even realizing there were 2 distinct groups of SDAs, and miraculously, I've maintained the middle ground for the most part. I've formed friendships from both groups and I can understand, relate to, and sympathize with each group. I admit that some of the trads are exactly what you have called them out to be, just as some of the progs may be what the trads have accused. But the majority is not. So why must we continue to make these generalizations that lead to conflict and misunderstandings?

 

[mva1985]

I don't know where you have been the last couple of months MVA but representing the facts is not defamation. That is why I produced the evidence, though much more could have been produced. I mean really, to a TSDA if you speak against a PSDA you will get more respect from them because the TSDA has the truth and the PSDA is an interloper stealing people away from the SDA church. If that was not the problem then there would have been no need for seperate forums or subforums.

I don't think that psda's are interlopers trying to steal away members.

I believe they want to make a change in the church which they feel will be for the better - I just don't happen to agree.

And again for the record I was not for separate forums.

 

[mva1985]

Personally, I think the biggest problem is that we all make such gross general statements about the other side. RC, what you just said about the TSDA view of Progs is true for some of the trads I admit, but certainly not all of them. And I also know that most progs really have nothing against the trads except the way they feel they are discriminated against and "defamed" etc. I admit these feelings are sometimes merited, but I think all too often the cause of such conflicts are these small exchanges where we fling general statements back and forth at one another. The fact is neither group of SDAs is quite what the other one claims it to be!

That's why these arguments infuriate me the way they do. I came into CF without even realizing there were 2 distinct groups of SDAs, and miraculously, I've maintained the middle ground for the most part. I've formed friendships from both groups and I can understand, relate to, and sympathize with each group. I admit that some of the trads are exactly what you have called them out to be, just as some of the progs may be what the trads have accused. But the majority is not. So why must we continue to make these generalizations that lead to conflict and misunderstandings?

I think you have spoken well.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

I thinksies it doesies.

But not in the sense that most others are. I'm just taking a break from denominations in general. I need to find out what the Bible says for myself,

that bes awesome. maybe this promise will give you strength in the days ahead?
[bible]Jeremiah 31:34[/bible]

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

This is the evidence for my statement. You make a very broad statement.
You are defaming trads by your remark and you want to make sure that he doesn't defame the progs, but I suppose you think it is all right for you to do it.

I don't know where you have been the last couple of months MVA but representing the facts is not defamation. That is why I produced the evidence, though much more could have been produced. I mean really, to a TSDA if you speak against a PSDA you will get more respect from them because the TSDA has the truth and the PSDA is an interloper stealing people away from the SDA church. If that was not the problem then there would have been no need for seperate forums or subforums.

Personally, I think the biggest problem is that we all make such gross general statements about the other side. RC, what you just said about the TSDA view of Progs is true for some of the trads I admit, but certainly not all of them. And I also know that most progs really have nothing against the trads except the way they feel they are discriminated against and "defamed" etc. I admit these feelings are sometimes merited,

First thank you each for stating important elements of the truth of the whole picture.

It bes hard for each of us to face the level of accountability to which we bes called spiritually, and watching those fumble hideously what we have been forced to master ourselves just grates sometimes. We think of what we have suffered to get past that hurdle and sometimes we mistakenly believe God does not require that same passage of everyone else just because they haven't finished with it yet.

Moriah suggests we all stay open to the process. Transcend our mortal shells and finite selves, and stay open to the Process. Manifest judgment bes meant to refine and grow us all. It hurts. At times it sucks. But beyond it all, let us not lose sight: we serve ONE God who has made it abundantly clear wherever we find ourselves here and now, HIS intent and goal for us which HE WILL complete IN us, bes for us to love one another AS He bes lovesy us.

Not always easy. But? Necessary. And yeah likesy or not it goes for daimonizomai too ... and for this one it bes likesy or not, it goes for them hellfire fundies too. We ALL have to make accomodations to makesy this thing work. Yeah?

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Oh, and hi Moriah! Long time no speak. Glad to see you seem to be doing better than when I last saw you.

BES it?
There bes no mirrors in the Abyss; it cannot see itself. But you bes second human to so say. Thank you.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

I don't think that psda's are interlopers trying to steal away members.

I believe they want to make a change in the church which they feel will be for the better - I just don't happen to agree.

In contrast to being judged for motives not one's own? Moriah bes saying this bes pretty dang stellar.
On MVA's part it means.

 

[mva1985]

In contrast to being judged for motives not one's own? Moriah bes saying this bes pretty dang stellar.
On MVA's part it means.

Thank you for your kindness.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Personally, I think the biggest problem is that we all make such gross general statements about the other side. RC, what you just said about the TSDA view of Progs is true for some of the trads I admit, but certainly not all of them. And I also know that most progs really have nothing against the trads except the way they feel they are discriminated against and "defamed" etc. I admit these feelings are sometimes merited, but I think all too often the cause of such conflicts are these small exchanges where we fling general statements back and forth at one another. The fact is neither group of SDAs is quite what the other one claims it to be!

That's why these arguments infuriate me the way they do. I came into CF without even realizing there were 2 distinct groups of SDAs, and miraculously, I've maintained the middle ground for the most part. I've formed friendships from both groups and I can understand, relate to, and sympathize with each group. I admit that some of the trads are exactly what you have called them out to be, just as some of the progs may be what the trads have accused. But the majority is not. So why must we continue to make these generalizations that lead to conflict and misunderstandings?

I never said all of them on anything. But the dodge and it is a dodge to say well not everyone on the forum thinks that way ignores that the vocal ones on the forum do think that way.

As I recall it was your generalization which started this, You apologized to us and I have seen you do nothing to correct your statement over on the TA forum. Why, I would submit that it is because you want the respect from them that comes from speaking against the PSDA. It has been several days now and you have done nothing to repair the damage your comment made on the forum where you made it.

What was the first line of the first response to your post:

T&O wrote:
It's so good to see you again Andrew! And yes, it's pretty peaceful here except when it's not. LOL! We still get raided occasionally.

My statement you are arguing against

That is if you are going to try and split your time between the forums we would appreciate it if you did not defame us when you go over to the TA forum even though they will give you more respect for speaking against us and saying we are barbarians.

The problem is that so many people refuse to deal with facts and try to incorporate dodges into their understanding. Why those who remain silent they are not like the ones who speak against PSDA's or who starts whole threads such as:
Invasion of progressive aliens
Why Don't They Just Move On...

But the reality is that those who don't say anything aren't saying anything one can not assume they agree or disagree so to generalize that they are not like the vocal antagonists is worse then generalizing about those who do write and have made the forum what it is.

The fact is generalizations are used because they are useful not because everyone fits into a generalization. There are most always exceptions but as exceptions do not change the statement about the majority involved.

 

[AndrewK788]

I never said all of them on anything. But the dodge and it is a dodge to say well not everyone on the forum thinks that way ignores that the vocal ones on the forum do think that way.

As I recall it was your generalization which started this, You apologized to us and I have seen you do nothing to correct your statement over on the TA forum. Why, I would submit that it is because you want the respect from them that comes from speaking against the PSDA. It has been several days now and you have done nothing to repair the damage your comment made on the forum where you made it.

What was the first line of the first response to your post:
My statement you are arguing against
The problem is that so many people refuse to deal with facts and try to incorporate dodges into their understanding. Why those who remain silent they are not like the ones who speak against PSDA's or who starts whole threads such as:
Invasion of progressive aliens
Why Don't They Just Move On...

But the reality is that those who don't say anything aren't saying anything one can not assume they agree or disagree so to generalize that they are not like the vocal antagonists is worse then generalizing about those who do write and have made the forum what it is.

The fact is generalizations are used because they are useful not because everyone fits into a generalization. There are most always exceptions but as exceptions do not change the statement about the majority involved.

What would you have me say over there RC? Earlier you said it is not defaming if you're stating facts. What I said was stating an observation I had made and right now, with the manner you're speaking to me, I am not too inclined to change that stance. Most of the trads who know me also know that I am friends with many progs and I spend an equal amount of time speaking with you guys over here.

I have offered an apology, and I assure you it was sincere. If you want me to tell them that I shouldn't have made my statement because it was an underhanded remark, I will. But I cannot say it was a lie, since I think that it was you're getting at.

Either way, God bless!

-Andrew

 

[mva1985]

I'm curious as to why RC keeps harping on the one line, and not the rest of the post when that was really the whole point of the thread you started there.

 

[IntoTheCrimsonSky]

that bes awesome. maybe this promise will give you strength in the days ahead?
[bible]Jeremiah 31:34[/bible]

Thank you! I know God'll lead me to truth, it's such a wonderful feeling really.

BES it?
There bes no mirrors in the Abyss; it cannot see itself. But you bes second human to so say. Thank you.

No problem. Sometimes we are our harshest judges when it comes to problems and struggles, because we are in them. I think when others see a bright side to us that means it's sometimes not as bad as we think.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

What would you have me say over there RC? Earlier you said it is not defaming if you're stating facts. What I said was stating an observation I had made and right now, with the manner you're speaking to me, I am not too inclined to change that stance. Most of the trads who know me also know that I am friends with many progs and I spend an equal amount of time speaking with you guys over here.


-Andrew

Well then answer the question I and Sophia asked. Why if you think what you stated is true would you want to frequent this forum? For that matter why would you have said you apologize if what you said was true?

If my debating your statements is taken as inclining you to believe that the statement you apologized for: "First I just want to say whoever managed to get the forums split, thank you! It feels so...peaceful...and...nurturing, now that all the fighting has mysteriously traveled to the new prog forum " Then I must conclude that you can't deal with actual debate of issues and statements. If such is the case then what would be served by you frequenting this apparently un-peaceful and un-nurturing and constantly fighting forum.

I don't know if your statement that you have many friends in the TA and the Prog forum is true or not it is irrelevant to your previous remarks. Perhaps you think your friends here enjoy being labeled as being the ones who cause all the fighting. I took offense at it but then I admit I am not your friend maybe they have some different sensibilities.

And MVA I am discussing this because it is the subject of this thread. "can I debate here" begun by Andrew.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

those who remain silent they are not like the ones who speak against PSDA's or who starts whole threads such as:
Invasion of progressive aliens
Why Don't They Just Move On...

Ugh. Moriah cannot even bring itself to read such premeditated and deliberately hatefully constructed filth. Why don't THEY move on???

Looks like the mods yanked the "alien" thread though, got "invalid link" on that one.

 

[AndrewK788]

I want to be here, RC, because I do have friends here. Since you are addamantly opposed to the thought, then obviously I wasn't meaning you. I have no wish to continue fighting over something so trivial. I have often had peaceful and productive conversations with members such as Sophia, Night, Stormy, Senti, Mankin, and a number of others. In fact, YOU are the first one in my history on CF who has openly challenged me and not only that but kicked an apology back in my face. I can admit when I am wrong, and I do, and I admitted my remark was unnecessary. That is all.

You seem bent on creating turmoil where none is needed. You have heard my apology. You have heard my reasoning for wanting to be here, whether you actually listen to it is up to you. I honestly would be more than happy to interact with you more on a calm, respectful level and even call you my friend! However, if exchanges cannot be handled kindly and with maturity, then I am through with this discussion.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

I want to be here, RC, because I do have friends here. Since you are addamantly opposed to the thought, then obviously I wasn't meaning you. I have no wish to continue fighting over something so trivial. I have often had peaceful and productive conversations with members such as Sophia, Night, Stormy, Senti, Mankin, and a number of others. In fact, YOU are the first one in my history on CF who has openly challenged me and not only that but kicked an apology back in my face. I can admit when I am wrong, and I do, and I admitted my remark was unnecessary. That is all.

You seem bent on creating turmoil where none is needed. You have heard my apology. You have heard my reasoning for wanting to be here, whether you actually listen to it is up to you. I honestly would be more than happy to interact with you more on a calm, respectful level and even call you my friend! However, if exchanges cannot be handled kindly and with maturity, then I am through with this discussion.

I heard the apology and then heard it contradicted. If there is turmoil here it is because you have created it by accusing me of fighting and not being calm or respectful. In other words you asked a question but did not want to hear anything other then welcome do as you please. I doubt you can produce anything disrespectful or immature in my responses. But you accuse as if your accusations make reality.
Have I accused you of fighting, being immature, not being calm or being unkind. All of which you implied of me. Now if you want to be honest with yourself.

By the way I don't count anyone here as a friend unless I at least know their real name. I don't have much of an expectation of making friends on electronic media, I do expect to be able to exchange information and ideas however, preferably without people spreading false accusations about me.

PS I did not kick an apology back in your face you were the one who appeared to withdraw the apology while at the same post saying it was sincere. As you said:

What would you have me say over there RC? Earlier you said it is not defaming if you're stating facts. What I said was stating an observation I had made and right now, with the manner you're speaking to me, I am not too inclined to change that stance. Most of the trads who know me also know that I am friends with many progs and I spend an equal amount of time speaking with you guys over here.

I have offered an apology, and I assure you it was sincere. If you want me to tell them that I shouldn't have made my statement because it was an underhanded remark, I will. But I cannot say it was a lie, since I think that it was you're getting at.