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All4Christ

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Sorry, but I'm serious about this: How can you imply that you have to be Catholic to be saved? And what's this about saved at death vs. some other kind of saved later on? That makes no sense. What part of John 3:16 am I not understanding?
The OP isn't Catholic.
 
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dzheremi

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Hello, mikeforjesus. It is good to see you here. :)

I'm not sure I understand your situation. Can you explain more what you mean about having troubled others? I am reminded that some of Jesus' followers were troubled by His command that we must eat His flesh and drink His blood, so I'm not sure that troubling others is in itself a problem.

Granted, the way it happens and the effect it may have on you and others may be a problem. To that end, I will tell you what I was told in the monastery of St. Shenouda when I went there a few years ago, by the wise and venerable priest there: The first rite of the Church is love. So before anything else, as the foundation of everything we do, we need to be loving. If you feel that in some sense you have been overly rigid or unloving towards people, then I would pray to the Lord that He soften your heart.

One prayer that I like to pray in situations similar to what you appear to be saying is the Sunday Psali for the Lord Jesus Christ, from the midnight praises. You may find it here: The English Translation of St. Antony Monastery, CL :: Sunday Psali for Jesus Christ

For me personally, it resonates deeply. "Your yoke is sweet, and Your burden is light." This is how it should be. Sometimes we make things harder than they should be in the pursuit of the Lord, but remember what our father Abba Anthony of the desert said to Abba Pambo: "Do not put your trust in your righteousness, nor regret past actions, but control your tongue and stomach."

As for returning to God, do you know HH Pope Shenouda III's popular sermon on the subject? Here it is with English subtitles. It helps me in my times of trouble, and I pray that it will help you too.


(No surprises here: the answer is prayer, as it always is. :))
 
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PottersHands

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Hello, mikeforjesus. It is good to see you here. :)

I'm not sure I understand your situation. Can you explain more what you mean about having troubled others? I am reminded that some of Jesus' followers were troubled by His command that we must eat His flesh and drink His blood, so I'm not sure that troubling others is in itself a problem.

Granted, the way it happens and the effect it may have on you and others may be a problem. To that end, I will tell you what I was told in the monastery of St. Shenouda when I went there a few years ago, by the wise and venerable priest there: The first rite of the Church is love. So before anything else, as the foundation of everything we do, we need to be loving. If you feel that in some sense you have been overly rigid or unloving towards people, then I would pray to the Lord that He soften your heart.

One prayer that I like to pray in situations similar to what you appear to be saying is the Sunday Psali for the Lord Jesus Christ, from the midnight praises. You may find it here: The English Translation of St. Antony Monastery, CL :: Sunday Psali for Jesus Christ

For me personally, it resonates deeply. "Your yoke is sweet, and Your burden is light." This is how it should be. Sometimes we make things harder than they should be in the pursuit of the Lord, but remember what our father Abba Anthony of the desert said to Abba Pambo: "Do not put your trust in your righteousness, nor regret past actions, but control your tongue and stomach."

As for returning to God, do you know HH Pope Shenouda III's popular sermon on the subject? Here it is with English subtitles. It helps me in my times of trouble, and I pray that it will help you too.


(No surprises here: the answer is prayer, as it always is. :))

I like this! Thank you.
 
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mikeforjesus

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Hi dzherimi :) It is a beautiful sermon by pope Shenouda. I watched the whole thing without being bored and His words were relevant. I felt he revealed the devil plot. I really wish and will try to endure in prayer but I really feel I have to show others that I am caring for my earthly future. I plan on looking for work as an engineer.
I don't know how to have balance because if I stop praying I feel I am lost and have to continue praying to make up for my future of being sluggish in prayer. It is good though if God has changed my heart to only desire Him but I feel I will be told off or persecuted for not having any earthly desires and I will be convinced rightly so. But it is true I have to pay back others for their help to me. Also I thought if I were to seek a wife I have to succeed in life which I feel I can with God grace without praying too much unlike Hannah who obtained a promise of a son through her prayers.
I am not convinced I don't have to worry about Protestants and that God is looking after them. In that sense I have not found the church and even Jesus does not want me to obey Him if I have only found the truth mentally but not in my conscience as I explain below that He said we must count the cost. If I preached salvation is only known in the church (even though I do not believe that but because I am confident I won't affect Christians outside the church and I think maybe God wants that obedience and will bless others through it ) I worry my family will consider I am listening to the devil or being fooled by extremists them internally not being convinced of my way for lack of me being a good example of orthodoxy and for spending my dad money in the past when I was not working and I worry I will hurt or cause fights for my brothers future fiance whose parents are Coptic Catholic but she is orthodox and it will be blameworthy of me because even though orthodoxy should be preached God only wants it to be revealed to others by people who are like st Anthony the great who had grace and was a witness of orthodoxy and people saw proof of his saintliness through miracles but only to those worthy of seeing miracles. I also worry affecting everyone else especially those in my life.

As Jesus said we should consider if we can follow Him before we become His disciple. Lest after I try to build a tower and am not able to finish others mock.
Some orthodox think I have to be rich before I become a monk to know I am not running away from life and can endure monasticism.
I atleast believe I am not supposed to be dependant on my parents before I say all my brothers and sisters family needs to be orthodox. And I will not say that until I am not dependent on them and have seeked God assurance that I don't need to worry about Protestants if that was His will. Maybe that will not hinder Protestants from being saved but that is not my conscience now and I have yet to find that truth if it is the truth. It might even help Protestants but I am convinced the opposite helps Protestants so will stick to that until I know better.
St Anthony said not to worry about past that can not be fixed by us but what about that which can ? God can perhaps fix that which we can't fix if He wants
Or since he said not to regret the past it means we should not regret it because we do not know if we did any harm and probably did not as God prevents it but as I said I have not found that truth yet
The people who walked away because Jesus taught communion walked away because they were not willing to hear Him out because of pride and fear of their fellow Jews and wanting honor from them like they wanted Jesus to be King they wanted His message to be famous among the Jews and their faith in Jesus was not the faith Jesus thought is complete as He said they did not really believe in Him at all but only believed because He conquered the Jews many times by His wonders and that is not a faith built on good ground but the wayside. Jesus never intended any of His sayings to be understood except by those who sought Him for the right reason and we are not Jesus or yet St Anthony.
 
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Paul Yohannan

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Hi dzherimi :) It is a beautiful sermon by pope Shenouda. I watched the whole thing without being bored and His words were relevant. I felt he revealed the devil plot. I really wish and will try to endure in prayer but I really feel I have to show others that I am caring for my earthly future. I plan on looking for work as an engineer.
I don't know how to have balance because if I stop praying I feel I am lost and have to continue praying to make up for my future of being sluggish in prayer. It is good though if God has changed my heart to only desire Him but I feel I will be told off or persecuted for not having any earthly desires and I will be convinced rightly so. But it is true I have to pay back others for their help to me. Also I thought if I want a wife I have to succeed in life which I feel I can with God grace without praying too much unlike Hannah who obtained a promise of a son through her prayers.
I am not convinced I don't have to worry about Protestants and that God is looking after them. In that sense I have not found the church and even Jesus does not want me to obey Him if I have only found the truth mentally but not in my conscience as I explain below that He said we must count the cost. If I preached salvation is only known in the church to gain favor among orthodox (even though I do not believe that but because I am confident I won't affect Christians outside the church ) I worry my family will consider I am listening to the devil or being fooled by extremists them internally not being convinced of my way for lack of me being a good example of orthodoxy and for spending my dad money in the past when I was not working and I worry I will hurt or cause fights for my brothers future fiance whose parents are Coptic Catholic but she is orthodox and it will be blameworthy of me because even though orthodoxy should be preached God only wants it to be revealed to others by people who are like st Anthony the great who had grace and was a witness of orthodoxy and people saw proof of his saintliness through miracles but only to those worthy of seeing miracles. I also worry affecting everyone else especially those in my life.

As Jesus said we should consider if we can follow Him before we become His disciple. Lest after I try to build a tower and an not able to finish others mock.
Some orthodox think I have to be rich before I become a monk to know I am not running away from life and can endure monasticism.
I atleast believe I am not supposed to be dependant on my parents before I say all my brothers and sisters family needs to be orthodox. And I will not say that until I am not dependent on them and have seeked God assurance that I don't need to worry about Protestants if that was His will. Maybe that will not hinder Protestants from being saved but that is not my conscience now and I have yet to find that truth if it is the truth. It might even help Protestants but I am convinced the opposite helps Protestants so will stick to that until I know better.
St Anthony said not to worry about past that can not be fixed by us but what about that which can ? God can perhaps fix that which we can't fix if He wants

Note that the extreme anti-Protestant anti-ecumenical sentiment you have encountered elsewhere on the Net is basically "netodoxy" and does not reflect the current position of the Oriental Orthodox Church.
 
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dzheremi

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Hi again, mikeforjesus.

It is bed time and then some here, but I wanted to say a few things.

First, the holy scriptures tell us that sufficient for the day is its own trouble (Matthew 6:34). I point this out because there is a lot of worry about the future in your posts. As you have pointed out, God will fix what He wills. Be still and know that He is God.

Second, of course prayer is good to keep us balanced, but even more than that it is as HH Pope Shenouda III put it in the sermon: it is taking from God. So if you recognize these problems (lack of balance, worry over your family, etc.), these are things to bring before the Lord in your prayers, because He has all that you need to deal with all of this. Maybe you will not be like Hanna in the temple, but just as in her example it is perseverance in prayer which leads to the kind of saintliness we see in St. Anthony and others.

Also, remember the story of the angel appearing to St. Anthony (at least I think it was him; I am away from my books right now, so I can't check, but it's definitely in the translation of the sayings of the Desert Fathers that I have) where the angel told him that there was man who was his equal in holiness residing in the city. Upon hearing this, St. Anthony went by the angel's direction to see this man and found a simple physician living an anonymous life who went about his work with prayer, gave his money to the poor, and every day chanted the Sanctus with the angels. No doubt there were probably worries and anxieties in this man's life, too (after all, that's part of the human condition, in so far as we become wrapped up in them), but the angel showed St. Anthony and us what was really important to living a balanced spiritual life. It is not so much the absence of problems (not at all, in fact; recall St. John the Little: "Lord, send me enemies, and give me strength for the fight"), but the focus on daily faithfulness in the way the Lord sets before us. Not everyone is called to the desert as St. Anthony or St. Paul the Hermit was. So I don't believe we can or should say that God only wants Orthodoxy revealed by those who are as saintly as St. Anthony. Of course we want to always try to be good representatives of our faith before others, as here on CAF, but there is a bigger lesson to be taken here about trusting in the Lord and honestly just...y'know...maybe slowing down a bit and taking things in an accepting and open fashion (note: NOT indifferent, as some people would have us be for having the temerity to say that Orthodox Christianity is uniquely true, as our faith commands of us, but in the sense of being soft-hearted, as we've talked about). Maybe not everyone is meant to preach to this or that people as in the days of St. Paul before the pagan Greeks, or in the fiery and righteous ways of someone like Iyowannis the Iconoclast in India or my beloved and holy father St. Shenouda the Archimandrite, but certainly you have a place too. We all do.

So why not try instead in situations like you mentioned with the Coptic Catholic future in-laws: do not worry about fights, because you will not cause them (commit yourself to that). Just be a good Orthodox Christian and avoid cross words about anyone. It is hard to get into arguments when you keep to the hours in the Agpeya, for instance, because you will occupy yourself with prayer, which is the best work and the antidote to all worries. :) Maybe they will even see what you have as an Orthodox Christian and desire it. Who knows. Either way, again our job is to be loving towards everyone.
 
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SkyWriting

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I think I have troubled people with Jesus words unless you eat My flesh you have no life in you to mean Protestants may never be saved or have a chance at being worthy of a reward but I have given a good reasoning for believing as orthodox we should accept Protestants. I know in my conscience it is wrong to cast doubt in Protestants ability to be saved because I may hinder the gospel for people who may even be close to death who can doubt Christianity because there are too many denominations claiming to be the way who are offended by disunity and the bad representation orthodox give of God
How can I come back to God as He said you can not go back to Him without reconciling with others (I mean in terms of reward as you can still be saved but not if you refuse reconciliation from unforgiveness and those in your faith )? Do you forgive me my rebellion ?I can say I insist and hold to death Protestants can be saved but you may not believe me and you may think I will change my mind. So how do I cancel this negative effect ? I can not be Protestant but a Christian who believes in unity of all believers because I can not get out of my mind you need to be baptised and/or born of water to be saved and eat His flesh but I believe Protestants can be forgiven in the age to come so I would still have to be orthodox and I think the Holy Spirit within me supports unity because of my conscience. Our conscience will accuse or excuse us in the day of Jesus

My defense for it being proper to accept Protestants is in the link below

Christian blog: Christianity

Anyway how do I cancel my negative affect on others of allowing those views not within my conscience to affect me. How do I get them to forgive me by not being offended anymore from me. I am willing to say I hold to death Christian unity but you may think I will return to those extremist views which make the path more narrow than it is which is in Jesus.

Also I would like your views on below
Christian blog: Knowing you are a Christian

You don't need to anguish over such things.
Giving them to God is the answer.
 
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mikeforjesus

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Hi again, mikeforjesus.

It is bed time and then some here, but I wanted to say a few things.

First, the holy scriptures tell us that sufficient for the day is its own trouble (Matthew 6:34). I point this out because there is a lot of worry about the future in your posts. As you have pointed out, God will fix what He wills. Be still and know that He is God.

Second, of course prayer is good to keep us balanced, but even more than that it is as HH Pope Shenouda III put it in the sermon: it is taking from God. So if you recognize these problems (lack of balance, worry over your family, etc.), these are things to bring before the Lord in your prayers, because He has all that you need to deal with all of this. Maybe you will not be like Hanna in the temple, but just as in her example it is perseverance in prayer which leads to the kind of saintliness we see in St. Anthony and others.

Also, remember the story of the angel appearing to St. Anthony (at least I think it was him; I am away from my books right now, so I can't check, but it's definitely in the translation of the sayings of the Desert Fathers that I have) where the angel told him that there was man who was his equal in holiness residing in the city. Upon hearing this, St. Anthony went by the angel's direction to see this man and found a simple physician living an anonymous life who went about his work with prayer, gave his money to the poor, and every day chanted the Sanctus with the angels. No doubt there were probably worries and anxieties in this man's life, too (after all, that's part of the human condition, in so far as we become wrapped up in them), but the angel showed St. Anthony and us what was really important to living a balanced spiritual life. It is not so much the absence of problems (not at all, in fact; recall St. John the Little: "Lord, send me enemies, and give me strength for the fight"), but the focus on daily faithfulness in the way the Lord sets before us. Not everyone is called to the desert as St. Anthony or St. Paul the Hermit was. So I don't believe we can or should say that God only wants Orthodoxy revealed by those who are as saintly as St. Anthony. Of course we want to always try to be good representatives of our faith before others, as here on CAF, but there is a bigger lesson to be taken here about trusting in the Lord and honestly just...y'know...maybe slowing down a bit and taking things in an accepting and open fashion (note: NOT indifferent, as some people would have us be for having the temerity to say that Orthodox Christianity is uniquely true, as our faith commands of us, but in the sense of being soft-hearted, as we've talked about). Maybe not everyone is meant to preach to this or that people as in the days of St. Paul before the pagan Greeks, or in the fiery and righteous ways of someone like Iyowannis the Iconoclast in India or my beloved and holy father St. Shenouda the Archimandrite, but certainly you have a place too. We all do.

So why not try instead in situations like you mentioned with the Coptic Catholic future in-laws: do not worry about fights, because you will not cause them (commit yourself to that). Just be a good Orthodox Christian and avoid cross words about anyone. It is hard to get into arguments when you keep to the hours in the Agpeya, for instance, because you will occupy yourself with prayer, which is the best work and the antidote to all worries. :) Maybe they will even see what you have as an Orthodox Christian and desire it. Who knows. Either way, again our job is to be loving towards everyone.

Thanks I will try to pray more asking for whatever I need and I will pray for ability to follow your advice God willing
 
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GirdYourLoins

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Matthew 7:1-2. I used to be judgmental as a young Christian whether people in other denominations were saved or not. I have learned that it is not my place to judge. If you want to judge whether people meet your standards of being saved, I believe God will judge you more harshly. You'd better be sure you are absolutely right.

John 14:6 Romans 10:9-13. Its quite clear to me how we are saved.

Luke 22:19. At the last supper when Jesus broke the bread and said this is my body. I believe it was bread which was symbolic of his body and the death he was about to suffer. He did not rip out part of his flesh and give it to the disciples to eat. Likewise the wine is representative of his blood that was spilled for our sin. He did not cut himself and pour His blood into the cup. I know many people who believe the doctrine that the Eucharist and wine turn into the body and blood of Christ is effectively cannibalism. I try not to judge.

I nearly forgot to add, as others have said, pray about it and ask God to lead you to the truth. Maybe he is already doing so which is why this is on your conscience.
 
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SkyWriting

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Thanks yes. I will wait for strength from Him

God likely will not give you strength. You might gain strength, knowing that
you are saved no matter what happens. But God will not interfere
or intervene in your life.
If you turn your future over to Him, He might open your eyes to
what He had planned for you. But He will not change you. You must change.
 
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miknik5

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What is to partake in the sacraments? I do not believe the Catholics or Orthodox have cornered a supply of the flesh of God. If you take a piece of bread and a sip of wine from an ordained priest, you yet need to do God's will to be saved. The food alone is not sufficient.

John 4:31 In the meanwhile, the disciples urged him, saying, "Rabbi, eat." 32But he said to them, "I have food to eat that you don't know about." 33The disciples therefore said one to another, "Has anyone brought him something to eat?" 34Jesus said to them, "My food is to do the will of him who sent me, and to accomplish his work. -- World English Bible

If I want to be saved like Jesus was saved, then I must accomplish the works his father commands.
The works HIS FATHER commanded is found in John 6
 
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miknik5

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I believe if all have their feet on THE ROCK then HIS PROMISE to all those who do stands steadfast and faithful

Forgive me for saying this but wouldn't HE say what is it if I would that he should tarry until I come, you follow ME
 
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Jack Isaacks

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If I want to be saved like Jesus was saved, then I must accomplish the works his father commands.

Where on earth did you get the idea that Jesus was--and therefore had to be--saved?

Jesus is God Incarnate, and therefore sinless.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
 
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mikeforjesus

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I have once again injured myself by trying to make all people join the church because that is how I interpret the bible but I do not know. I am willing to pinge my salvation on Protestants also being saved because I think that is what will save me. Do you accept me ? Have I stumbled others ?

If I was to discuss another view than what the church currently teaches I am put out of the forums which is a type of synagogue

I wanted to say this but they may delete my post and if done again they can ban me

It could be when Jesus said the bread that I shall give is my flesh he said that because they are offended that because they do not understand that He needs to die and whoever believes in His death for forgiveness of sins and sanctification will live forever. This also could be why Jesus said the words I say to you are Spirit what other reason ?

This comes from my ancient Christian commentary

Tertullian: If he says that “the flesh profits nothing,” then the meaning must take direction from the context of that remark. For seeing that they regarded his speech as hard and unbearable, as though he had really prescribed his flesh for them to eat, since his purpose was to assign the establishment of salvation to the Spirit, he first said, “It is the spirit that gives life,” and only then added, “the flesh profits nothing”—toward the giving of life, of course. He also proceeds to state how he wishes “the Spirit” to be understood. “The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.” … And so, when establishing his teaching as the Life-giver (because the Word is spirit and life), he also said that it is his flesh, because the Word also was made flesh. We ought therefore to desire him in order that we may have life. We ought to devour him with the ear, and to ruminate on him with the mind and to digest him by faith. On the Resurrection of the Flesh 37.

And I also read after to understand

The Eucharist, Communion Supper | carm

Many famous early church fathers seemed to suggest we can digest Christ by faith one site even said St Cyprian taught that and he is very important in our church
 
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Jezmeyah

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It says in John 6:51 "I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

The bread which the disciples were about to partake of is representative of his (at that time) upcoming crucifixion. It is similar to the meal of lamb which God instructed the Jews to eat at Passover before they would leave Egypt.
When John the Baptist looked at Jesus, he said "Behold, the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world."

Thus John 6:51 is not concerning the sacrament of communion for those already saved, but it's concerning salvation through Christ unto those who are not saved.

Be mindful that there is no distinction in any text of whether catholic means saved and protestant means not saved, for catholicism was not in place during the ministry of Jesus, nor during the lives of the 11 apostles- of those who wrote the epistles.

In fact, in all the New Testament there is no mention of any particular denomination, but only God's truth. Therefore the Bible is not Catholic truth, nor is it Protestant truth. (this is the main reason why I do not give my denomination in my profile, but rather I give the designation of Christian.. because the Bible states that there is no distinction of Jew or Gentile., it follows that there would be no distinction of denomination either; but all believers are in Christ).

Therefore, look at the bare bones of God's word, and not through the fully dressed denominational clothing that each denomination dresses God's word with.

The actual eating of Christ's flesh is not pictured in the text or in any text. But rather the partaking of the gospel where eating is compared to receiving which is compared to humbling ones thoughts to God's word of truth.

It says in Jeremiah 15:16 "Your words were found and I ate them, and Your words became for me a joy and delight of my heart."
It says in James 1:21 "In humility receive the implanted word which is able to save your soul."
It says in Proverbs 3:5 "Lean not to your own understanding but trust in the Lord with all your heart, acknowledge Him in all your ways, and He shall direct your path."

It says in Ps.50:23 "To him who orders his way aright I will show the salvation of God."
It says in Isa.53:2 "For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot."
It says in Mat.18:3 "Truly I tell you," He said, "unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."
It says in Jerem.17:7 "Blessed is the man who trusts in the LORD and whose trust is the LORD. For he will be like a tree planted by the water."
It says in Isa.53:2 "And (He grew up) like a root out of parched ground."
It says in Jerem.17:8 "(the blessed man is like a tree) That extends its roots by a stream and will not fear when the heat comes; But its leaves will be green, And it will not be anxious in a year of drought nor cease to yield fruit."
 
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mikeforjesus

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Then there is the issue of needing baptism to enter the kingdom but we know that is not a blanket statement because a child shall not die for his fathers sins. A baby may sin but he is not old enough to understand salvation and his parents may not have told him about it nor baptised him.
I believe all faithful believers will be saved in the world to come. Matthew 25 says those on the right will go straight into the kingdom. That may be because before Christ comes to judge after the earth is destroyed people will go to hades/death or paradise and then Christ will judge to where they will immediately go. But the bible says those christians who remain will be caught up in the air that is at the Lord second coming. It could be because the church may be one then. Will they have to be baptised then? well protestants don't object to baptism anyway but they are not baptised by the church because they do not think they need to. Just as in the early church everyone was demanded to so will it be then I believe so I can hope that not everyone and even noon who thinks baptism hinders Jesus message will be judged. If the church becomes strong and is merciful to believers who passed before the church was strong who are righteous you may have to get baptised even now but it could be reserved to only that time

Also how the apostles can loose and bind

But I believe God gives the Holy Spirit to whoever He believes deserves it which I think is all christians. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy says God. I believe God in His mercy will give some pastors this gift also but you must seek grace wherever its source

Cornelius was guided to the truth because he was honest. Therefore if God is not guiding to the church then you may not have to worry you don't have the truth.


The bible in Revelations 20:11-15 may hint that maybe some who are in hades/death could be written in the book of life but I can not say from this passage alone for sure .For they may all not be written but everyone is judged to determine what punishment they deserve. But I do believe unbaptised will go to hades even if they were righteous. I believe it is wrong to force people to go to church when they do not know they should if they desired to be baptised if they thought they had to atleast long ago even though they may have lost the desire if there is ever an excusable reason


Revelations 20:11-15
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
 
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