Can I be a good Christian?

Svonaly · Oct 31, 2018

Ken Rank said:
A holy and righteous God will not ask somebody to sin. He would be guilty for causing us to sin, which would make His action unrighteous. The Abraham thing, unfortunately, has probably been the cause of for some to turn away from God. But it isn't what they think it is, too bad they weren't more patient before walking away.

Don't feel stupid, just blame it on our culture. We live in a society where things are right or wrong, black or white, and very very (painfully) literal. It's easy for someone to see that despite the bible calling God a "rock" that we can't go out into our driveway and pick up God. The idea of 'rock' is meant to depict His steadfastness. Same with, say... "God is our fortress." Obviously we don't drive to Ft. Knox to find God and gain His protection... the word "fortress" is used metaphorically to depict His protective tendencies of those who belong to Him. But when we see "sacrifice" we take it literal and actually have God sending His son to do something that He called an abomination. And the even sad part is I have to be careful how I say this because of folks being so emotionally tied to certain ideas in Scripture. That is why I was careful to say, "he sacrificed himself" but that "he isn't a literal OT type sacrifice."

Many blessings... it will all work itself out.

Thank you again for your reply!
And yes I can imagine that this Abraham story is the cause for many people to leave Christianity ... I was almost at that point, but then in all of that I felt like God's presence - what was weird, because I hated him and didn't wanted to believe, but at the same time I felt his existance more than ever before. So, I thought I'd give it another chance and ask some questions.
And considering the wonderful answers I got on here, I guess it was the right decision I'll still have to figure out for myself why God let my friend suffer like this - but I guess that's all a thing caused by free will and his and his moms decisions. So that's something I'll be able to accept eventually

And I think it's hard to recognize a metaphor when it doesn't look like one. When we feel like we understand something we don't think about it twice, and even if we do, we don't think like 'maybe I got the words wrong', but we question what is said and not HOW it is sad ... I guess that's also what causes a lot of arguments we have among each other

Thanks for your answer and time again

mukk_in · Oct 31, 2018

Svonaly said:
Thank you so much for your kind words and taking the time to answer me

I was really not thinking about the different background of societies in this time ... The whole bible reading thing is much more complicated than I thought at first ;D Thanks for bringing that to my awarenes.

As for the sacrifice. So God COULD have done something else, but that would have meant breaking his own rules for justice and if he would have done that he would have messed up everything and so he had to sacrifice someone in order to obey his own laws? So he created Jesus to sacrifice him, as the only way to forgive humanity withoug braking his own laws of justice?
Not sure if I got that completly right ... But it seems logical to me

Thank you so much again for your answer!

Yes, Jesus is the lamb of God slain from the foundations of the world. Again, try reading Hebrews 9-10. Your questions will be answered there .

hedrick · Oct 31, 2018

Svonaly said:
My first question is: Does God really ask us to trust him to a point where we would be willing to sacrifice our own sons for him? Like he did with Abraham and Isaac? Because I doubt that I could ever do that ... I would rather die, fighting God than sacrificing another human being - especially someone I love.

In principle yes. But not as a human sacrifice. The closest I know in real life is seeing your son go into a dangerous situation such as the military. But that is voluntary, or at least a duty that the son accepts.

Many of us think the point of that story in the OT was that it was the end of human sacrifice. After all, God stopped the sacrifice. Human sacrifice was a custom in many ancient cultures, but never in Judaism, even OT Judaism. Sacrificing children was always treated as a serious crime.

And the second question is: If God is all powerful and all loving. Then why did he sacrifice Jesus (his own son) and let him suffer on the cross? If he is all powerful he should have had thousands of other options to forgive humanity?

I note that Jesus accepted the need for it. So it was more martyrdom than human sacrifice. Why it was done is the subject of a doctrine called the “atonement.” There’s actually no single explanation. Various suggestions have been made throughout Christian history.

Human disobedience and our mistreatment of each other produces alienation, from each other and from God. God could, of course, enforce his will via lightning bolts. But that wouldn’t really change the situation. He chose to join us on our side of the gap, and experience the consequences himself. In doing so, he becomes our brother, and bridges the gap.

I don’t believe your friend’s mother is right. It is very unusual for Christians to reject medical care. This is actually the mark of groups that are generally considered “cults.” However some Christians who would have no problem going to a doctor for heart surgery feel that a mental condition such as depression is a spiritual problem, not a medical one, and thus that it should be dealt with only by prayer and should not involve medical treatment. I disagree, and I think most people involved in CF would disagree.

hedrick · Oct 31, 2018

It's worth noting that one of the ways in which Satan tempted Christ was to get him to demand a miracle. He said throw yourself off the Temple, because God will send angels to rescue you and it will be great PR. Jesus condemned it, saying "do not tempt God." Refusing medical treatment and demanding that God perform a miracle is rather like Jesus throwing himself off the Temple.

Yes, I think God does do miracles at times where there's a specific need. But not commonly. What kind of people do you think we'd be if there were no consequences to our actions, and no serious challenges? I think that's why God doesn't fix things by fiat, but rather joins us in experiencing and dealing with the consequences.

Hazelelponi · Oct 31, 2018

Svonaly said:
First of all thank you so much for taking the time to write all of this down!!!

One thing I should probably have mentioned in my original post - my friend is 25 and I am 19, so it's not acutally child abuse. I think it's kinda a childhood problem coming up again though, as he moved closer to his parents again a couple of months ago, after being futher away for some years. I believe in supporting each other in a family though, and that's why I still see her as responsible for her friend.

But yeah what you said about it kinda making sense that he is depressed with her as a mother - that's something that came to my mind too. Like I didn't understood it all at first, I just saw my friend changing and becoming an other person and pushing me away - saying that I'd only make things worse. Now I guess it's all based on this conflict with his mom and I believe he is trying to make her care and get some attention ... It doesn't matter to him how often I tell him that he is important and wonderful the way he is, I acutally believe that when he said that I would make things worse he meant that in contrast to me it only became more clear how less his mom cared about him and so I guess that made things worse. In a weird way.

I don't know his home address, he's been moving a lot in the last months as they are struggling financially and are planning to move to another state anyway.
But I wouldn't do that anyway... He made it quite clear that for now he doesn't want me in his life and all of this is something he has to figure out with himself and his mom. I just hope that some day he will realize that he doesn't need his moms approvel that much ( but that's easy for me to say - coming from a family in which I am always loved no matter what and with a mom being woried about me as soon as I sneeze ;D)

For losing our families because they don't agree on us following Christ ... My parents are kinda sceptical about me getting closer to Christianity, but they know that I am a grown up and leave me my freedom. They would tell me if they'd feel like I would do something immoral or make a stupid decission, but they would never keep me away from making my own decisions on faith. But to be honest, I don't konw if I would be willing to follow Christ if it would mean abonding my family. Also the bible commands us to honour our parents, so I would never tell them that they are stupid for not being Christian or doing something wrong - I might talk to them about religion and discuss things, but at the end of the day we never know who is right and who is wrong and we all just need to follow the path God created for us.

So God didn't acutally sacrifice his son but himself? That really changes everything ... If that is true that's something I can absolutly accept and apprechiate morally. Thanks for saying that! It makes a log of sense and I never looked at it that way!! Thank you so much

And thanks for saying that it's okay to pray even if I am annoyed and don't feel like honoring God the way I probably should ... And I think he is answering me. All those responds to my post are acutally much more than I ever expected and I am sure God is speaking through some of you!! So thanks for being there and supporting me.

But I'll deffinitly should work on my prayer routine ... Well it was good until all of this happend. This morning when I woke up and wanted to pray out of routine, I just went like 'F'ck you God, I am not going to talk to you, until you stopped treating my friends like [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse].' ;D So, I probably should go back to some more respect and being grateful for all the wonderful things he is still giving me everyday. Including the support of so many amazing people!!

Thank you so much again, your answer really helped me a lot!!!

Well your freinds age does make a difference, and all you said does put a different perspective on things so we will keep your freind in our prayers.

As far as God dying for our sins yes, this is what the Bible says. The various creeds such as the Nicene Creed and Athanasian Creed do a great job of explaining the Trinity.

These creeds are universal to Christians, and "catholic" is a word that means universal, (not to be confused with Roman Catholic), so bear that in mind when you read the creeds.

Historic Church Documents at Reformed.org

To me the Athanasian Creed is more explanatory or understandable than the Nicene Creed, but do read both of them to get a solid sense of the divinity of Christ and the Christian Churches teaching on it.

In the end though, it boils down to God the Son came down from heaven out of love for us, took on the form of man, and gave his own life for our sins to provide a path for our salvation and reconciliation to HIM.

As far as prayer, likely none of us are as reverent as we should be at times, and I believe God knows our heart and all that's in it.

I'll tell you a true story. When I was young I was very close to my dad; would've done anything to make him happy, although I wasn't always the perfect daughter. My dad was my world. He wasnt just a dad he was also my friend and confidant.There weren't many decisions I made without his input and advice.

When he died I was still young and his death left me without an anchor. I'm not sure I ever thought much for myself before he died as my every thought prior to his death surrounded either what he thought or might think, so I was honestly lost without him.

After his death I took to talking to him as if he could see me from heaven whenever I needed help or advice. It was silly I'm sure, but I found it helpful. It alleviated my grief by making me feel as if he were near, and also it just helped me to think more clearly.

I don't know the day it changed, but one day I realized I wasn't talking to my earthly dad who had passed away anymore, but rather, I had begun talking to God instead. And, for some reason I didn't stop. I just kept talking to God as if he was my father whenever I needed advice or help in any given situation.

I wasn't saved back then of course, and I try now to begin prayer in revent acknowledgement of who He really is, but I still talk to Him as a daughter speaks to her father and it probably will never change.

So, try talking to God like you speak to your dad. There would be the respect inherent in a daughter to father conversation, but a comfortable familiarity as well that is inherent in a relationship. So this is a good way to speak to God I think as our God is a personal God who knows us intimately and desires a relationship with us. In prayer, we can find that relationship.

I will pray you find you way to a saving knowledge of Jesus.

Svonaly · Nov 1, 2018

hedrick said:
In principle yes. But not as a human sacrifice. The closest I know in real life is seeing your son go into a dangerous situation such as the military. But that is voluntary, or at least a duty that the son accepts.

Many of us think the point of that story in the OT was that it was the end of human sacrifice. After all, God stopped the sacrifice. Human sacrifice was a custom in many ancient cultures, but never in Judaism, even OT Judaism. Sacrificing children was always treated as a serious crime.

I note that Jesus accepted the need for it. So it was more martyrdom than human sacrifice. Why it was done is the subject of a doctrine called the “atonement.” There’s actually no single explanation. Various suggestions have been made throughout Christian history.

Human disobedience and our mistreatment of each other produces alienation, from each other and from God. God could, of course, enforce his will via lightning bolts. But that wouldn’t really change the situation. He chose to join us on our side of the gap, and experience the consequences himself. In doing so, he becomes our brother, and bridges the gap.

I don’t believe your friend’s mother is right. It is very unusual for Christians to reject medical care. This is actually the mark of groups that are generally considered “cults.” However some Christians who would have no problem going to a doctor for heart surgery feel that a mental condition such as depression is a spiritual problem, not a medical one, and thus that it should be dealt with only by prayer and should not involve medical treatment. I disagree, and I think most people involved in CF would disagree.

Thank you so much for your answer! You all are really helping me a lot by answering me those questions

She is not rejecting medical help in regards of physicall problems, it's just that she's not accepting that depression and other metal problems can be caused by biological processes too...
Honestly, by know I am pretty sure that it isn't even a relgious problem. Yes, she says that it wouldn't be a thing of God and giving away all responsibility to God. But I truly believe that she is just scared to stand up and face the reality. Or maybe like one of those 'perfect' middle class families - where a mental illness would just completly destroy the picture. I think she knows quite well, that if she'd face the problem and learn more about depression, she would have to admitt that she as well as anyone else made mistakes and she rather pushes that away.

Her son is actually a grown up (25) I meant to put our ages in my original post, but I forgot. Hes just very close with his family and so his mother was the one I choose to turn to for support ... Also he has a history of depressive episodes and I think it's all mainly caused by his weird relationship to his mom.
Anyway, all of this wasn't the point of my post and if I would write down all details of his depression and our story that would be a novel that likely noone would want to read - I just wanted to give some background to why I asked those questons.

Thank you very much for bringing that story about Jesus back to my mind, I acutally read that like two days ago, but I didn't make that connection
Jet, it's exactly what bothered my about her behaviour so much. Like for cause the bible teaches us to trust God, but it doesn't say 'Please stop fighting for the things you care about and only pray'. We have so many situations in which we can really only pray and rely on God, but as long as we can do something, I would always try to make things work. After all being Christian (if I understood it correctly) is all about allowing God to work through you and follow his guaidance. So we can hardly do anything good, if we refuse to do anything at all.

Not saying we don't make mistakes, but sometimes doing something wrong is better than doing nothing at all ...

Svonaly · Nov 1, 2018

Hazelelponi said:
Well your freinds age does make a difference, and all you said does put a different perspective on things so we will keep your freind in our prayers.

As far as God dying for our sins yes, this is what the Bible says. The various creeds such as the Nicene Creed and Athanasian Creed do a great job of explaining the Trinity.

These creeds are universal to Christians, and "catholic" is a word that means universal, (not to be confused with Roman Catholic), so bear that in mind when you read the creeds.

Historic Church Documents at Reformed.org

To me the Athanasian Creed is more explanatory or understandable than the Nicene Creed, but do read both of them to get a solid sense of the divinity of Christ and the Christian Churches teaching on it.

In the end though, it boils down to God the Son came down from heaven out of love for us, took on the form of man, and gave his own life for our sins to provide a path for our salvation and reconciliation to HIM.

As far as prayer, likely none of us are as reverent as we should be at times, and I believe God knows our heart and all that's in it.

I'll tell you a true story. When I was young I was very close to my dad; would've done anything to make him happy, although I wasn't always the perfect daughter. My dad was my world. He wasnt just a dad he was also my friend and confidant.There weren't many decisions I made without his input and advice.

When he died I was still young and his death left me without an anchor. I'm not sure I ever thought much for myself before he died as my every thought prior to his death surrounded either what he thought or might think, so I was honestly lost without him.

After his death I took to talking to him as if he could see me from heaven whenever I needed help or advice. It was silly I'm sure, but I found it helpful. It alleviated my grief by making me feel as if he were near, and also it just helped me to think more clearly.

I don't know the day it changed, but one day I realized I wasn't talking to my earthly dad who had passed away anymore, but rather, I had begun talking to God instead. And, for some reason I didn't stop. I just kept talking to God as if he was my father whenever I needed advice or help in any given situation.

I wasn't saved back then of course, and I try now to begin prayer in revent acknowledgement of who He really is, but I still talk to Him as a daughter speaks to her father and it probably will never change.

So, try talking to God like you speak to your dad. There would be the respect inherent in a daughter to father conversation, but a comfortable familiarity as well that is inherent in a relationship. So this is a good way to speak to God I think as our God is a personal God who knows us intimately and desires a relationship with us. In prayer, we can find that relationship.

I will pray you find you way to a saving knowledge of Jesus.

Thank you so much for your reply!!
Yes, I know that changes things ... I honestly wanted to put our ages in there but then I forgot. I was trying to just give a little back story to why I was asking those questions, so it wouldn't look like I am just an [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] trying to offend you all by asking weird questions about your religion ...
If I were to write down the whole background of his depression and our friendship that would likely be the lenght of a novel and noone would want to read it. Nor would I want to tell it on social media, as it would feel like hurting his privacy and trust.

And thank you so much for sharing that story of yours, I am so sorry to hear about your fahters death. Now I am really looking up to you for how that brought you closer to God and not made you question his intentions and why he was doing that to you, I am quite sure that that woud be my immature response to something like that happening ... So thank you again for sharing that, I'll try to use that idea when I pray in the future

NBB · Nov 1, 2018

If you have hints that God is real, and you are looking for him, (he is real, and looking for him is essential) don't look at people, other christians... you are just going to get dissapointed if you do, look at Jesus.

God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son, the idea was to test him, not to kill his son, he stopped him. And those were other times.

About Jesus, if God thinks that was the only way he could do it, maybe there is some mystery or two that we do not know about, also the sacrifice gave the posibility of redemption to all humanity, so it was important.

God is very real, God can interact with people, and if you didn't experienced anything from God yet, i don't think you can even imagine the things he can make us experience!

aiki · Nov 3, 2018

Svonaly said:
My first question is: Does God really ask us to trust him to a point where we would be willing to sacrifice our own sons for him? Like he did with Abraham and Isaac? Because I doubt that I could ever do that ... I would rather die, fighting God than sacrificing another human being - especially someone I love.

Well, Abraham knew that God had forbidden human sacrifice. God had also promised Abraham that from his seed a vast nation would be born. Abraham knew as well that God could revive his dead child, if it was necessary. It was this knowledge that framed - supported, even - Abraham's actions with Isaac. Abraham knew his Creator very well and so was able to trust Him to an astonishing degree. If you find that kind of trust very alien, maybe even abhorrent, it is because you don't know God like Abraham did. That can change, of course, and your faith in God can become like Abraham's. But knowledge and experience of God is necessary to such faith.

God does call us to trust Him completely and radically. We must, like Job, be able to say, "Though God slay me, yet will I trust Him." The writer of Hebrews wrote,

Hebrews 11:6
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he who comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them who diligently seek him.

Faith is integral to the Christian life. If one's trust in God is shallow, one's walk with Him is correspondingly shallow. The reverse is also true: The more we trust God, the greater and deeper will be our experience of Him in and through us.

A right knowledge of God begins with His special revelation of Himself in His word, the Bible. This is where you will come to know about God best. But knowing about God is not the same as knowing Him personally. It is as one steps out in faith onto the truths of God's word - like one would step out, say, onto a bridge - that one will begin to experience God in a more personal, more real, way. And when that happens, one's trust in God only deepens and expands

Svonaly said:
And the second question is: If God is all powerful and all loving. Then why did he sacrifice Jesus (his own son) and let him suffer on the cross? If he is all powerful he should have had thousands of other options to forgive humanity?

All of Creation, all of human history, is aimed by God at demonstrating the supremely excellent qualities of His character and powers. Even the sacrifice of Christ on the cross serves this purpose. It reveals in awesome measure the grace, mercy, love, holiness and justice of God. Could God have made such a demonstration in some other different but equally awesome way? Possibly. I suppose He could have made the sun shine purple; He could have made the sky green; He could have made us with wings or ten eyes. But He didn't. He made things as they are. And this is His prerogative as the Creator. Inasmuch as I'm a finite, flawed, and comparatively ignorant creature, I'm not going to indulge in second-guessing my Maker. I'm going to assume that He chose the very best way to do what He has done.

Svonaly said:
So, I hope you can help me with this, because if God really sacrificed his own son AND asks us to be willing to do the same thing then I think I'll rather go to hell than ever serve him.

Well, the ironic thing here is that God sacrificed His own Son - Himself, in a sense - so that you wouldn't have to go to hell. How strange that the very thing He intends should save you, you have lit upon as a reason to reject His salvation.

There's a lot of hubris, too, in your words. Essentially, you're saying that if God doesn't act as you think He should, if He doesn't make the demands of you that you're willing to allow Him to make, you want nothing to do with Him. Wow. You appear to think entirely too much of yourself and entirely too little of God. This sort of thinking doesn't end well.

FireDragon76 · Nov 4, 2018

I think its natural to be disturbed by the story of Abraham and Isaac. I think that's part of the point. Taking it on its surface is not how Christians or Jews traditionally understood the story, because on a surface reading, it is pretty horrific and morally dubious.

Can I be a good Christian?

Svonaly

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