Can I ask this?

[Xpycoctomos]

Then why did you bring it up in the first place?

The people that use this are looking for ammunition.

You might be referring to me, you may not be. Let me just say though that Maximus' posts demonstrate well that you can be a good loyal Catholic under the Pope, respect the Catholic doctrines regarding the Papcy and still disagree with the Pope. I, as an outsider, would hardly get that impression from most other OBOBers. But Maximus demonstrates that there is room to disagree with the Pope without being considered a dissenter.

Look, the truth is the truth. The pope did this and it is healthy that there is a discussion about this here. All the better that it is a discussion started by Catholics and not by outsiders. Outsiders can read this and make up their own mind... but they now know that even if they did disagree with the Pope's decision, this is no reason not to become Catholic. If they read this and decided they shouldn't be Catholic... they were probably the same people who would never have become Catholic anyway and are just looking for reasons to bash teh Catholic Church. Why try to pander to them anyway? I used to do that when I became Orthodox... now I figure.. hey, we aren't perfect... never claim to be. Here it is... bruises and all... take it or leave it bud (maybe in a nicer way though

John

 

[Maximus]

Then why did you bring it up in the first place?

The people that use this are looking for ammunition.

I brought it up because of the topic of this thread.

The fact that people use it for ammunition is exactly why we should talk about it and demonstrate that Catholics recognize that it was not the right thing to do.

We should make it clear what the doctrine of the Papacy is really all about. It is about the office divinely instituted by our Lord.

It is not about blind complicity in the indefensible.

 

[thereselittleflower]

I don't have much time these days to keep up with these threads, but in looking at this one I must say I am amazed at a few of the posts making excuses for Pope John Paul II kissing the Koran. There is no legitimate excuse for it. It was dead wrong.

Yet to make a judgement lke that requires that we are perfectly aware of all the circumstances and the intent of his heart

I don't think any of us here can make such a claim, do you?

Intent and Context are very important . .

We may not like that he did this, but we have no right to sit in judgement of him in this . . . especially when the context sheds such light on his actions.

And you cannot say that only anti-Catholics have criticized what the Pope did. Plenty of Catholics were upset about it, too. When I get time I will post links to some of their articles.

I didn't say only anti-Catholics have problems with it . . but it has not caused scandal in the Church . . . . .

"It's the culture," is perhaps the lamest and most common excuse I've heard.

It was "the culture" during the Roman Empire to burn a pinch of incense before a statue of Caesar, yet many Christians gave their lives rather than do that. They could have come up with all sorts of euphemistic arguments to justify betraying the faith, but they didn't. They just refused and died.

You're comaprng apples and oranges.. the one above is a participation in a religious ceremony . . the pope did not participate in any religious ceremony or observance. . .

He received a gift and honored the givers with his gesture of good will. . . that's all . . .

The Pope could have just not kissed the evil book and nothing would have happened to him. He wasn't even under any duress. So why did he cause scandal to the Catholic faith? Why give millions of Muslims the impression that the Koran is somehow legitimate? What of all of the martyrs who have died defying the precepts of that monstrous book?

Yet he chose to reach out in a traditionally and culturally appropriate manner to the givers of this gift . .. .it is only our frame of reference that put bad connotations on this act that in reality do not exist . . . .

There is no excuse for it. It was a disgusting thing to do.

I realize this is your opinion, and I respect that . . I do not agree however that we can sit in judgement of another in this way, especially our pope when there are legitimate explanations that clarify what his intent was and the context of the action . . .

I am not God . . so I am going to give the pope the beneift of the doubt . . only God can judge his heart . . ..

I hope others will give me the benefit of the doubt when my actoins seem contradictory . . . I am sure you wish this for yourself as well. .. ..



Peace in Him!

 

[Benedicta00]

To all the EO who responded to me:

I don't mean that the EO Church does not suffer- I know that the east suffered/suffers still a great deal for the sake of truth. I meant more along the lines of all the rhetoric the Church gets, the reformation, all the schisms. These are what I meant by "issues."

The Catholic Church are the ones who are dealing with all the schisms breaking and being disobedient, we have to deal with disobedience from those who are in union trying to destroy the Mass, we have to deal with the media and America is anti Catholic by and large and the media hates our guts. So I meant along those lines.

I think we have these issues because Satan wants to bring the Church down. EO, IMO is the Church and Satan first accomplished split and he is working on what is left to break it up all together. He accomplished the reformation, Henry splitting, ect. Vatican 2 he had a field day with. I mean it that way.

The Pope kissing the Koran and it being such a big deal, these things in the Church tell me Satan is trying his best to get people to break from her, doubt her and this tells me that this is the true Church because if it weren’t Satan would not be trying to get everyone to leave her, he would not be trying to get everybody to hate her. That’s all I’m saying here.

All of these thoughts are IMO only of course and probably not worth much anyway.

 

[Benedicta00]

TAKE HEED,


all in the Body of Christ should not disregard any of the differant denomination's truths,

ALL who have been given "faith" by God are part of the Body of Christ and should not disregard any "brethren",

Jesus Christ is not divided,

ALL of the Christian denominations hold truth, but all also hold falsness, not until the member of Christ, at the appointed time, given by God comes unto "unity" of the Holy Spirit,

"From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?..Ye ask, and recieve not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts." James 4

ALL of the differant Christian denominations are guilty of judging another denomination for what their understanding is,

each member of Christ, must become humble, knowing that it's God that gives understanding to us, we are nothing without God, we can not take "pride" in who we are or what denomination we go to,

ask and you shall recieve, IF we ask with the right intent, God gives grace to the humble,

I pray that all of the church seek truth diligently, wanting truth above everything else, God is faithful and will give, if one seeks truth before anything else,

"that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another" For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what has thou that thou didst not recieve?
(1 Corinthians 4)

newname

No, the Catholic Church does not hold any false doctrines. It holds the fullness of the faith that you and I share. You sect holds truth but it also has a margin of error, the Church does not.

 

[Maximus]

Yet to make a judgement lke that requires that we are perfectly aware of all the circumstances and the intent of his heart

Not true at all.

We don't have to know anything about intent or the heart to know that an action is wrong or a grievous mistake.

Intent and the state of the heart may be exculpatory, but they do not render the act itself any less wrong.

Since the Pope knows we cannot judge intent and the heart perhaps he should have been a bit more conscious of what kissing that vile book looked like to anyone with eyes to see.

And it was a scandal, a stumblingblock to the faithful and to non-Catholics alike.

 

[Maximus]

BTW, I was kind of hoping this thread would die. I did not bring up what I did to start a big furor over it. I was merely answering the OP. Had I wished to "whine" about some of the Pope's actions, I could have started a thread for that purpose, replete with garish color photos.

I don't want to do that or to turn this thread into anything like that.

I like Pope John Paul II, even though I do not agree with some of the things he has done.

It is one thing to be a Catholic loyal to the Papal Office established by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

It is quite another to believe that any sort of thing is okay merely because a pope does it.

Remember Alexander VI?

 

[Anthony]

I don't want to stir up a hornet's nest, but this question has been banging around in my pretty little head for a while.

Do the Orthodox "fly under the radar" so to speak in these forums (or other's for that matter) as opposed to Catholics who bear the brunt of "anti" sentiments? It just seems to me that based on the reception or reponse of Protestants, that even though Catholics and Orthodox vary little on most doctrinal issues, you'll generally read anti-Catholic bias but not anti-Orthodox. I also find that Protestants will warm up to Orthodox views but dismiss Catholic one's out-of-hand just because they are Catholic. Notice I'm not attacking any group here, just looking for similar experiences.

I feel the reason for the "under the radar" is the simple fact, the Orthodox Church doesn't have much of presence, and it seems to be looked upon as the russian version of Christiainity. The Catholic Church gets more attention because it is more visible, vocal, in the news, and because it emphazies its claim to the running of the Church over all others. The squeaking wheel get's the grease.

The number one reason for the heat is it's sole-authority claim on the church. It doesn't matter whether you agree with the claim, it always will come back.

 

[ps139]

Closed temporarily.

 

[ps139]

Thread opened. Please everyone, say what you want in a respectful manner. The pope is only human.

 

[Veritas]

Thread opened. Please everyone, say what you want in a respectful manner. The pope is only human.

Thanks! I would hope we could stay on topic, too.

 

[Rising_Suns]

We don't have to know anything about intent or the heart to know that an action is wrong or a grievous mistake.

Peace be with you Maximus,

I don't mean to get us off topic, but may I ask why you think it was a mistake? The muslims worship the God of abraham, as evident in the Koran. This is not paganism we're talking about here; Islam is deeply connected to Christianity, and I think the pope, in the spirit of Vatican II, saw this and honored it in the name of unity.

"The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." [CCC, 841]
​

With regards to the OP, although it is true that the Orthodox don't get as much flak from Protestants as we do, they often get lumped together in the same category as Catholics, which generally speaking, seems to bother them alot since they do not see us as closely united as we do.


May the Lord give you His peace!

-Davide