Can God sin?

[2PhiloVoid]

Love between spouses is far from being uncompromising and is absolutely conditional. If your spouse repeatedly cheats on you are you going to continue to be together. Being "jealous" of your spouse's love is founded in insecurity. There is NO form of jealousy not founded in envy or insecurity (all of which, are not compatible with a perfect entity).

Well, God obviously has a soft spot. Additionally, Christians are admonished by Paul to do their best to avoid sin. Why? Because it could 'grieve' the Holy Spirit.

Just one more you can add to your list of imperfections, since you're collecting.

 

[God Is Immortal]

I've never suggested otherwise. And so?

Again, so? What does this have to do with what I posted to you? You were over-generalizing and I showed you that you were.

I'm afraid you're the one who may have some misconceptions about the "things of God." So long as you make incorrect comments about my posts I will not stop responding and showing you your errors in doing so.
Yes, I have not suggested otherwise. So?

Uh, no. This is silly. You're playing with semantics here - and not very well. If someone bruises their knee, their knee has suffered harm. This is obvious. THe person could just as easily and correctly say, "I have harmed my knee." as they could say, "I have hurt my knee." "Hurt" and "harm" are essentially synonymous in meaning. Any native speaker of English knows this - your odd equivocation about these terms notwithstanding.

Your semantical games are not God's ways or thoughts. What a strange assertion to make.

You are the one who started finding fault. In fact, this appears to be mostly what you're doing in this thread. I would not have responded to you at all if you had not offered erroneous correction to my post. So, maybe you ought to direct your questions above at yourself.

"Judge not lest ye be judged"? Tell that to the apostle Paul (see 1 Corinthians 5). "You do err, not knowing the Scriptures."

Selah.

Do you know that many find faults in which God did not create? They make their owns laws and some even enforce their own way, truth, and life? They sit back like those who harassed Jesus. Just waiting. Where there is no fault, they still find some.



See, a soldier can go through training. In his training, he can get scratched up and maybe even bleed but no harm came upon him. A player trains to win a race. Their body may feel a lot of pain due to lack of endurance. They may begin to breathe heavy and hard, full of suffering yet they win the race. No harm came upon them. God's definition of harm is very different than your definition.

 

[God Is Immortal]

It creates confusion. You are not holding a conversation by doing that. You are standing in the street shouting to anyone who will listen. I feel it should be more effective to engage people directly, even if only to be heard seriously, and if it should be overheard by an onlooker, let God strike their conscience as the truth is proclaimed. Have a think about it anyway. There is no reason why someone who would have read your message will not read your message if it was properly addressed, but it will be obvious that what you are saying is relevant, and your meaning will be clear to everyone.

@OP: I feel sorry for you having the last few posts go off topic, hopefully we can all agree that you deserve to have your queries addressed.

Then this is directly to you, for you have spoken to me. Do you know that God does such things? As a result, you not only judge me, but God.


Jesus often spoke of archetypes. So does the invisible immortal himself.


To judge is to add to the word of God and to take away from the word of God. Thus becoming a law unto yourselves. Setting yourselves up as Judge and making your own laws. Making your own way, truth, and life as if you were king upon God's throne. Yes, I prefer to speak to an audience and not a single individual. For God is for everyone and all those who want to come to listen, can..

For I try to speak in a manner that benefits all for we shall be judged for every idle word we speak. I try to speak in a manner that all who may listen will learn at least something. One man is not greater than the masses. The masses are greater than one man. So much so, Jesus died.

As for going off topic. God and his full truth is always relevant and never off topic.

 

[oi_antz]

Then this is directly to you, for you have spoken to me. Do you know that God does such things? As a result, you not only judge me, but God.


Jesus often spoke of archetypes. So does the invisible immortal himself.


To judge is to add to the word of God and to take away from the word of God. Thus becoming a law unto yourselves. Setting yourselves up as Judge and making your own laws. Making your own way, truth, and life as if you were king upon God's throne. Yes, I prefer to speak to an audience and not a single individual. For God is for everyone and all those who want to come to listen, can..

For I try to speak in a manner that benefits all for we shall be judged for every idle word we speak. I try to speak in a manner that all who may listen will learn at least something. One man is not greater than the masses. The masses are greater than one man. So much so, Jesus died.

As for going off topic. God and his full truth is always relevant and never off topic.

If you feel judged, then it is your conscience speaking to you. I have told you the way you appear, as an observer. You need to decide if that is important because it does devalue your message. I will PM you if you need to discuss it further, this is not the right place to do it, it is disrespectful to the person who is enquiring to the faith. Please show that you are responsible for your impact on OP's faith by engaging him appropriately.

 

[God Is Immortal]

If you feel judged, then it is your conscience speaking to you. I have told you the way you appear, as an observer. You need to decide if that is important because it does devalue your message. I will PM you if you need to discuss it further, this is not the right place to do it, it is disrespectful to the person who is enquiring to the faith. Please show that you are responsible for your impact on OP's faith by engaging him appropriately.

Actually, everything I am saying should be able to not only help this "Op," but everyone else who decides to read. Judging is adding to the law. You are adding to the law. Stop, I have learned better than this and some lies will not deceive me. Do not add to the word nor take away from the word of God.

How much have I said can help this Op? Imagine a tree full of branches. Just because I choose a branch does not make it off topic or disrespect.

 

[oi_antz]

Actually, everything I am saying should be able to not only help this "Op," but everyone else who decides to read. Judging is adding to the law. You are adding to the law. Stop, I have learned better than this and some lies will not deceive me. Do not add to the word nor take away from the word of God.

How much have I said can help this Op? Imagine a tree full of branches. Just because I choose a branch does not make it off topic or disrespect.

Sure, but please tell us who you are speaking to when you make a direct statement as you did. God does not go about confusing people, humans do that, and you have done it very well.

 

[God Is Immortal]

Sure, but please tell us who you are speaking to when you make a direct statement as you did. God does not go about confusing people, humans do that, and you have done it very well.

Matthew 21:45
When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he spoke about them.


Mark 8:15
He warned them, saying, “Take heed: beware of the yeast of the Pharisees and the yeast of Herod.”

John 6:70
Jesus answered them, “Didn’t I choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?”

Matthew 16:6
Jesus said to them, “Take heed and beware of the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”

 

[God Is Immortal]

Jesus also spoke about Archetypes.

 

[alien444]

When I use the term insecurity, I mean to describe the feeling of being secure. When you consider what happened to the world in the days of Noah, the idea that the world was almost completely lost to Him, do you expect Him to feel secure about that? Is this the same meaning of insecurity as you understand it to mean? If it is, then what is there about this that you think suggests that God is not perfect?

The main point of this argument is really the idea of creating an anthropomorphic God. All Gods that have been created throughout history have been anthropomorphic. Even for example an American Indian Wolfe God is not really a Wolfe, it is a Wolfe with human intellect and emotion. Gods are created in our image, not the other way around. A true omnipotent, omnipresent, all-knowing God of Love would be impossible for our intellect to understand its true nature. I gave the analogy earlier of trying to under enormous lengths of time or distance. I can fairly easily hold in my mind the idea of a year passing or a distance of a mile, but to imagine 14 billion years passing or 3 billion light years is impossible. We can understand it mathematically, but not intellectually. A God as described above is equally impossible to truly understand. Describing this God as jealous or saying (he) hates or loves this or that is impossible to comprehend. What I am saying is that even if some God exists, how can we pretend to understand it. And man-written books like the bible only show this incapacity by using anthropomorphic descriptions like jealousy. (Forgive my bluntness, my intention is not to offend--but to discuss)

 

[alien444]

Jealousy has caused God to do many many things. Why would having the fear of losing something dear to your heart make one imperfect? Why would love not fear losing that in which it loves?

Why would you think FEAR is perfect? What is your definition of perfect? I think this is an accurate definition.

an ideal type

beyond practical or theoretical improvement
entirely without any flaws, defects, or shortcomings

How is jealousy or fear part of the human idea of perfection?




So God fighting for you is imperfect? God giving you grace and finding all these different reasons to give you salvation is imperfect? Without his jealousy, we would all be in hell.

No, without Grace or Compassion would we not all be in hell (whatever that is). It is jealousy and hate that sent, and continues to send, billions of otherwise good people who were born into different religions or never heard of the Christian God into eternal torture.


Without jealousy, would there be mercy? Would God relent? Would he forgive?

Sure he could. He is perfect and omnipotent, remember?

Be careful with every idle word and lie you say. Jealousy has it's perfect tendencies when with a perfect God.

How can you guys betray your creator with such words?

It's pretty easy really, since I don't believe he exists.

 

[alien444]

Well, God obviously has a soft spot. Additionally, Christians are admonished by Paul to do their best to avoid sin. Why? Because it could 'grieve' the Holy Spirit.

Just one more you can add to your list of imperfections, since you're collecting.

Yeeeaaaa, we finally agree on something Philo.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Yeeeaaaa, we finally agree on something Philo.

You're funny, Alien. I appreciate an academic with an attempted sense of humor.

Actually, though, do we agree? I guess semantics get in the way. Do notice that I said the additional item could be added to "your" list of God's 'imperfections.' What is apparently poison for you is for me perfume.

I forgot to tell you....you got a call to "phone home."

Peace

 

[oi_antz]

The main point of this argument is really the idea of creating an anthropomorphic God. All Gods that have been created throughout history have been anthropomorphic. Even for example an American Indian Wolfe God is not really a Wolfe, it is a Wolfe with human intellect and emotion. Gods are created in our image, not the other way around. A true omnipotent, omnipresent, all-knowing God of Love would be impossible for our intellect to understand its true nature. I gave the analogy earlier of trying to under enormous lengths of time or distance. I can fairly easily hold in my mind the idea of a year passing or a distance of a mile, but to imagine 14 billion years passing or 3 billion light years is impossible. We can understand it mathematically, but not intellectually. A God as described above is equally impossible to truly understand. Describing this God as jealous or saying (he) hates or loves this or that is impossible to comprehend. What I am saying is that even if some God exists, how can we pretend to understand it. And man-written books like the bible only show this incapacity by using anthropomorphic descriptions like jealousy. (Forgive my bluntness, my intention is not to offend--but to discuss)

I am not offended by what you have said, I am not really offended at all. I am concerned though by your dodge. Why did you not address my question? You seem to think that man has made God up, what evidence do you have for that idea?

 

[DennisTate]

A related question is ..... can God kill in a manner that is ethical and not a sin?

… and... can God delegate some of this authority to human beings?

......

An apology to all members of the military and police!
I just want to say that I am truly sorry for all those years that I was close to believing in near total pacifism! Rabbi Jesus/Yehoshua once asked a question of the Scribes and Pharisees that should have made it obvious to me that an extreme situation can call for drastic action by a Christian or Jew who feels called into a life in the military or police!

Mark 3:4 "And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace."

I am almost certain that Rabbi Jesus/Yehoshua was referring to the situation faced by the Machabees when Greco - Syrian armies were attacking Jewish communities on the Sabbath.

One community had refused to fight back....but the Machabees....in my opinion correctly judged that this is a violation of an admonition by King Solomon:

Ecclesiastes 7:16 "Be not righteous over much; neither make thyself over wise: why shouldest thou destroy thyself?"

Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible, First Book Of Machabees Chapter 2
..."So they gave them battle on the sabbath: and they were slain with their wives, and their children, and their cattle, to the number of a thousand persons. [39] And Mathathias and his friends heard of it, and they mourned for them exceedingly. [40] And every man said to his neighbour: If we shall all do as our brethren have done, and not fight against the heathens for our lives, and our justifications: they will now quickly root us out of the earth.

[41] And they determined in that day, saying: Whosoever shall come up against us to fight on the sabbath day, we will fight against him: and we will not all die, as our brethren that were slain in the secret places."

 

[aiki]

All Gods that have been created throughout history have been anthropomorphic. Even for example an American Indian Wolfe God is not really a Wolfe, it is a Wolfe with human intellect and emotion. Gods are created in our image, not the other way around.

THis may be the case for other gods, but not for the God revealed in the Bible. He is described in human terms that we may gain some understanding of His nature and will, but the Bible is clear that God is far more unlike us than like us.

A true omnipotent, omnipresent, all-knowing God of Love would be impossible for our intellect to understand its true nature.

Yes, and the Bible agrees.

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

But God, being God, has been able to make some of Himself comprehensible to us. And what may be known of Him we find in the pages of Scripture.

I gave the analogy earlier of trying to under enormous lengths of time or distance. I can fairly easily hold in my mind the idea of a year passing or a distance of a mile, but to imagine 14 billion years passing or 3 billion light years is impossible. We can understand it mathematically, but not intellectually. A God as described above is equally impossible to truly understand.

Well, He is impossible to fully understand, I'll grant you that. But our not being able to fully understand God is not tantamount to Him being a total mystery. I may not be able to entirely comprehend a billion light years but I can understand what a thousand miles is and so have a small glimpse into the enormity of a billion light years.

Describing this God as jealous or saying (he) hates or loves this or that is impossible to comprehend. What I am saying is that even if some God exists, how can we pretend to understand it.

We can't. And the Bible makes no bones about this. After all that the Bible reveals to us of who God is, we still have only the tiniest conception of His actual nature. It is for this reason that Christians are urged in Scripture to hold God in the highest esteem, to reverence Him deeply, and to be in profound awe of Him. He is far, far, far more than just a super-powered man.

And man-written books like the bible only show this incapacity by using anthropomorphic descriptions like jealousy. (Forgive my bluntness, my intention is not to offend--but to discuss)

Such descriptions are not perfect, I think, but they do express something of the nature of what God feels in terms we can understand.

Selah.

 

[Sunshine Locket]

He does not break his own laws. He cannot.

Critics of the Bible often take issue with the subjective references and attach to them the human understanding of such words as, hate. Thinking that human emotion is what is expressed by God when the scriptures say for instance, "...but Esau I have hated..." .

God doesn't hate. All things being created by him he can not as a supreme being assume the qualities of the lesser. I appreciate this thread because it signifies one of the foremost blockades in the atheist mind set so as to preclude their accepting that God exists and Jesus was Messiah. Subjective bias.

Question: "Why did God love Jacob and hate Esau (Malachi 1:3; Romans 9:13)?"

 

[God Is Immortal]

Critics of the Bible often take issue with the subjective references and attach to them the human understanding of such words as, hate. Thinking that human emotion is what is expressed by God when the scriptures say for instance, "...but Esau I have hated..." .

God doesn't hate. All things being created by him he can not as a supreme being assume the qualities of the lesser. I appreciate this thread because it signifies one of the foremost blockades in the atheist mind set so as to preclude their accepting that God exists and Jesus was Messiah. Subjective bias.

Question: "Why did God love Jacob and hate Esau (Malachi 1:3; Romans 9:13)?"

You say God doesn't hate. Well, Noah's flood, Armageddon, and the Lake of Fire has me disagreeing with you on that. God shall destroy his enemies. Love does no harm to it's neighbor therefore hate does.


He keeps a covenant of love with those who love him. He will repay them that hate him to their faces.

 

[oi_antz]

You say God doesn't hate. Well, Noah's flood, Armageddon, and the Lake of Fire has me disagreeing with you on that. God shall destroy his enemies. Love does no harm to it's neighbor therefore hate does.

He keeps a covenant of love with those who love him. He will repay them that hate him to their faces.

Do you burn the chaff because you hate it, or because it has no value to you? Perhaps you hate what it does to you, since you have to thresh it from the wheat. But ultimately there is nothing useful for it, so you destroy it. Fire is used to destroy chaff because it is simple, cheap and effective, leaving only ash. Which, incidentally, is useful. Therefore I do not believe that God hates all the people He discards, but perhaps He hates what they have done to Him, and what they have done to themselves.

 

[oi_antz]

Hi Alien, I am going to respond in detail to this, because it has been a few days so for whatever reason you don't want to address my last comment, I should accept that. I understand that you asked for discussion in this response, and I did not provide it. Let me see if I can inspire discussion and maybe you will feel a desire to answer my previous question.

The main point of this argument is really the idea of creating an anthropomorphic God. All Gods that have been created throughout history have been anthropomorphic. Even for example an American Indian Wolfe God is not really a Wolfe, it is a Wolfe with human intellect and emotion. Gods are created in our image, not the other way around. A true omnipotent, omnipresent, all-knowing God of Love would be impossible for our intellect to understand its true nature.

Do you not observe this characteristic regarding God, who we are discussing?

I gave the analogy earlier of trying to under enormous lengths of time or distance. I can fairly easily hold in my mind the idea of a year passing or a distance of a mile, but to imagine 14 billion years passing or 3 billion light years is impossible. We can understand it mathematically, but not intellectually.

Which therefore is more useful to us? A mathematical understanding or what you call an 'intellectual' understanding (perhaps conception is a better word)?

But, you did say something in the close of that comment, which I would like to reiterate:

I see no reason to believe that humanity has such an understanding as to create an organized belief system or concept of God that is even remotely absolute in its truisms.

This is a statement that I agree with.

A God as described above is equally impossible to truly understand.

No, you can truly understand Him, but probably never fully. But to understand Him truly would mean that your understanding of Him is accurate.

Describing this God as jealous or saying (he) hates or loves this or that is impossible to comprehend.

Why do you say it is impossible to comprehend? Some people have managed it. If God has characteristics that are best described with the words "jealousy", "love" or "hate", why do you say it is impossible to comprehend? I think this question, of all the questions we could throw back and forth, really should be investigated until we determine just what the problem is. The whole problem of this thread is represented by this statement.

What I am saying is that even if some God exists, how can we pretend to understand it. And man-written books like the bible only show this incapacity by using anthropomorphic descriptions like jealousy. (Forgive my bluntness, my intention is not to offend--but to discuss)[/B]

There are many people who can pretend to understand Him. Atheist's do it all the time, thinking they are being smart. But they are only pretending, and for someone who does have a true understanding of Him, we see this as foolishness. Whatever these atheist's imagine God to be is so insufficient to call a god that their statements are confessions that they really don't want to know God in a real way. They make this confession by refusing to consider and accept statements that make good sense, which challenge their beliefs. You should look around and see if you can observe it yourself, such people are as crazy and brainwashed as any bible thumping gay basher.

Your statement about man-written books showing an incapacity of humans to understand God is misdirected too. The humans who wrote the statements in the bible do appear to have truly known God, yet no matter how many words they write, can they define Him. The problem you are identifying in this statement is the incapacity of a human to share their comprehension with another human, which is no surprise at all, since a comprehension is the summit of a lifetime of experiences and understandings culminating to a present thought - that is, the performance of the brain in a specific way. There is no technology that can take that from one person and put it on another. It can only be described in an attempt to share a sufficient glimpse of that comprehension. To really understand God for who He really is, you are going to need to seek it from Him.