Can God save whom He wants?

[Hammster]

Can God save whom He wants?

 

[archierieus]

Yes and no. If the issue is God's power to save anyone and everyone, yes. But if the issue is God's character, and His acting in harmony with His character, then the answer would be no.

 

[Hammster]

Yes and no. If the issue is God's power to save anyone and everyone, yes. But if the issue is God's character, and His acting in harmony with His character, then the answer would be no.

What is it about His character that makes Him unable to save whom He wants?

 

[Hammster]

I guess I don't get an answer. Oh, well. It was worth a shot.

 

[archierieus]

You will. Its late, I'm tired and it is an important issue.

 

[Hammster]

You will. Its late, I'm tired and it is an important issue.

I understand. It's even later where I am at. Good night.

 

[Dispy]

Can God save whom He wants?

That is true, but that is not how I believe that God operates. If God would "pick and choose" who He would save, then we have an unjust God.

IMHO, All that God does/did is based upon His forknowledge, and man's free will.

"Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; Titus 1:1,2"

"Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: Ephesians 1:9,10"

"Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:9-11"

God had a purpose for His creation, and it was through His Son the He might be glorified as philippians 2:9-11 states. God created the heavens and the earth, and it was good. God created all the heavenly hosts, and they were perfect in every way. Even Lucifer was perfect and the most glorieous of all of God's created beings. However, they were all created with free will. God did not create sin. Sin entered the world because Lucifer purposed in his heart to usurp God authority.

For thou [Lucifer] hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Isaiah 14:13,14

Adam and Eve were created perfect, and with free will. God did not create them with sin in their heart. It was Lucifer (satan) who deceived Eve, and she in turn enticed Adam to partake of the forbidden fruit. Therefore sin entered the world, and we are all of the seed of the first Adam.

God, who is all knowing, knew what would happen even before creation. Therefore, He devised a plan that would not only defeat satan, but provide a means by which fallen man could be saved. He knew the end from the beginning. "...for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me. Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient time the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my preasure" (Isaiah 46:9-10). Therefore He devised a plan that would not defeat Lucifer, but would also provide a means by which fallen man could be saved. That plan was "The Cross."

Nowhere, prior to the Pauline revelations, do we learn about the purpose of the Cross. Paul tells us in 1 Cor. 2:7-8 "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery (secret), even the hidden wisdome, which God ordained before the world (creation) unto our glory. Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they know it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." Had satan known the purpose of the Cross, he would have "worked like the devil" to keep Christ from the Cross.

Based upon the above, I have come to the conclusion that God had provided a means by which all man can be saved. Man was created with the free will to accept, or reject, the "free gift" of salvation provided by FAITH ALONE in the Cross work (death, burial, and resurrection) of Christ.

Being God is soverign, and knew ones free will decision prior to creation, He can use that one (both saved and unsaved) to carry out His divine purposes. IMHO, if God chose some to be saved, and others lost, then IMHO He would be an unjust God.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[MamaZ]

How funny that based on mens idea of fair they judge God. It surely amazes me.. Yes God can and does choose whom He wants to be saved. God has not changed and in the OT we find Him picking and choosing whom He wants for His will to be acomplished and His power and glory to show. In the NT we see that He picks and Chooses still those whom He wants for His own to show the Power and Glory of Him..

 

[Eric_C]

Dispy wrote:
“If God would "pick and choose" who He would save, then we have an unjust God.”


What is this thing you call justice that dictates the behavior of God?

The Almighty says:

“I am God, and there is none like Me” Isaiah 46:9

He also says:

“I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.” Exodus 33:19

There is nothing more powerful than God, He is the standard of justice and therefore; whatever God does is just.

Your opening premise has you on the bench and God on the docket. Adam an Eve did the same thing; they sat in judgment of God’s word.

Climb down off the bench my friend…... no one but He belongs on that seat.

 

[the particular baptist]

Awesome thread. Subscribing !

 

[the particular baptist]

speaking of Exodus 33:19



Sam Storm

Paul's point in citing both Exod. 33:19 and Exod. 9:16 (in Romans 9) is to prove that there is no unrighteousness in God when he bestows mercy on some (e.g., Jacob) but hardens and rejects others (e.g., Esau and Pharaoh).



It wasn't the willing, running, or works of anyone, whether Jacob, Esau, Moses, or Pharaoh, that determined God's decision to be either merciful or just. It was wholly and solely based on the sovereign good pleasure of God himself.

 

[JDS]

Ro 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? [It is] God that justifieth.

Mt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS (Jehovah is salvation): for he shall save his people from their sins.

Justification and salvation are two different actions. One is an action of God and the other is by Jesus Christ.

God was justiftying men for 4000 years before any were saved. He was doing it by means. The means was faith in what he said.
Ro 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him (God) that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Ro 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. (But it diid not take his sin away)

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Ac 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren (Jews), that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.


Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

So, the anwer is that Jesus Christ can save them that believe. It is the reason he came into the world.

1Ti 1:15 This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.


Who can come?

Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. AND THE SAINTS OF GOD SAID "AMEN"!

 

[nobdysfool]

How funny that based on mens idea of fair they judge God. It surely amazes me.. Yes God can and does choose whom He wants to be saved. God has not changed and in the OT we find Him picking and choosing whom He wants for His will to be acomplished and His power and glory to show. In the NT we see that He picks and Chooses still those whom He wants for His own to show the Power and Glory of Him..

I find that rather curious myself. Men sitting in the place of God, judging Him. Seeing that God does as He wants, and as He chooses to do, and given the fact that since He defines Justice, anything He does is Just, there is simply no room for man to question it. When they stand before God to give account of their lives, I seriously doubt whether they would challenge Him on His choices. If they did, and He were to answer them, His answer would show itself to be totally Just, even if it meant their condemnation, and they would have no choice but to agree.

The underlying premise behind such foolish talk, is the belief that man is not really as bad, as corrupt, as sinful, as God over and over in the Bible says man is. Self-justification is a sin. Those who accuse god of being unfair if He does what He has every right to do, are engaging in self-justification, pure and simple. And to say that His choices are premised and based on our foreseen choices is to elevate man's will to the determinate factor, and God's choice as a rubber stamp of what man chooses to do.

 

[JDS]

I find that rather curious myself. Men sitting in the place of God, judging Him. Seeing that God does as He wants, and as He chooses to do, and given the fact that since He defines Justice, anything He does is Just, there is simply no room for man to question it. .

Then why do you question his right to impute the faith of a guilty man for righteousness like he says he does?

Read Romans 4.

Abraham before the written law:

Ro 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

David during the law:

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Those since the law:

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

 

[nobdysfool]

Then why do you question his right to impute the faith of a guilty man for righteousness like he says he does?

Read Romans 4.

Abraham before the written law:

Ro 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

David during the law:

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Those since the law:

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Where do get the idea that I don't believe that? What I do not accept is your conclusion that anyone, by their own choice, apart from Grace, can choose to believe anytime they want.

The scriptures you quote are great scriptures, full of hope and able to build faith in those who believe. But your accusation that I don't believe them, or argue against them, is way off the mark. It is a false accusation, and you should retract it.

 

[JDS]

Where do get the idea that I don't believe that? What I do not accept is your conclusion that anyone, by their own choice, apart from Grace, can choose to believe anytime they want.

The scriptures you quote are great scriptures, full of hope and able to build faith in those who believe. But your accusation that I don't believe them, or argue against them, is way off the mark. It is a false accusation, and you should retract it.

It does not agree with you theology because there is a condition given. The "u" in your theology demands there be no conditions.

No one can believe without the testimony from God. The subjects of Ro 1 are said to be without excuse because they had the creation testifying to the person of God. The implication is that God would justify them if they believed that revelation of himself. Later, he said the gentiles who had not the law were a law unto themselve by the testimony of their conscience. God does not show a limitation on who can believe but he condemns them who do not as if they are guilty of something. Wait! They were already condemned by their sins and he justified them by imputing righteousness for their believing.

 

[beloved57]

The subjects of Ro 1 are said to be without excuse because they had the creation testifying to the person of God.

yes, but creations testimony of God isnt the Spirits testimony of God..rom 8:

16The Spirit itself beareth witness[testimony] with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Creations testimony of God at best leads to natural mans religon, which degenerates into gross immorality and idolatry in which was pauls whole point in romans 1:

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

All this occurs with merely natures revealation of God..as opposed to Gods revealation from heaven in the gospel rom 1:

16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

You fail to discern the difference between natures revelation of God in order to render men inexcusable at Judgment day

32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

And spiritual revelation by means of the Gospel, to render men [the elect] Justified and righteous..

 

[JDS]

yes, but creations testimony of God isnt the Spirits testimony of God..rom 8:

16The Spirit itself beareth witness[testimony] with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

The subject is not the children of God and the Spirit was not given to men until after the glorification of Jesus Christ at his resurrection. Nothing is scripture is more clear than that. It was God who said that men before that were without excuse because God could be known through his creation.

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Dead men knowing God and glorifying him not!

Does anyone see a problem with the "T" here?

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Can God save whom He wants?

Arguing what God is CAPABLE of doing always seems moot, IMHO....
Read Luke 1:37

God HIMSELF placed a CONDITION on salvation. We are not saved by the will of God, we are saved by grace through faith in Christ. Now, if God wishes to WAVE what He said and simply by-pass Christ, by-pass faith, by-pass what He said - I guess He could do that, if that's the question. But we have no reason to assume that God forgets what He said and by-passes the condition He Himself placed on this.


That's MY perspective.


Pax


- Josiah




.

 

[MamaZ]

Gods grace is not dependant on Mens choice of free will.. Gods grace is set upon the people He not only calls but chooses and justifies and glorifies.. It is through His power alone that anyman is saved. Not by the will or choice of men can they be saved..One must understand Grace from which they are saved by. Grace is an empowering of God by God alone. Grace is not floating in the air like a beautiful ice skater. This is not biblical grace.