Can Christians Serve Two Countries?

AlexDTX · Jul 6, 2015

JustHisKid said:
I absolutely agree with you. I laugh when "Christians" take up arms to fight ISIS. Huh? That doesn't even make sense. Store up your treasures in heaven and do not invest in this world.

.

Hi, JustHisKid. Thank you for your encouragement. This thread has been a revealing exercise. Going through the comments you can tell who has given their hearts to Christ completely and those who have not thought through what it really means to follow Christ. Thanks again.

AlexDTX · Jul 6, 2015

Vince53 said:
My wife and I are Americans who are happily retired in Mexico. We both love the US (We won the Women's World Cup in soccer yesterday!!!!!) and Mexico, but we serve neither. We serve Christ here in Mexico, just as we served Him in the US.

Praise the Lord, brother. Keep up the faith and the good work you are doing in Mexico!

ron4shua · Jul 6, 2015

And we have known and believed the love that Elohim has for us. Elohim is love, and he who stays in love stays in Elohim, and Elohim in him.

31“Do not worry then, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’

32“For all these the gentiles seek for. And your heavenly Father knows that you need all these.

33“But seek first the reign of Elohim, and His righteousness, and all these matters shall be added to you.

34“Do not, then, worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow shall have its own worries. Each day has enough evil of itself.

16“See, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.

17“But beware of men, for they shall deliver you up to sanhedrins and flog you in their congregations.

18“And you shall be brought before governors and sovereigns for My sake, as a witness to them and to the gentiles.

19“But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it shall be given to you in that hour what you shall speak,

20for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking in you.

9“But take heed to yourselves, for they shall deliver you up to councils and to congregations. You shall be beaten, and you shall be brought before rulers and sovereigns for My sake, for a witness to them.

10“And the Good News has to be proclaimed first to all the nations.

11“And when they lead you away and deliver you up, do not worry beforehand what you are to say. But whatever is given you in that hour, speak that, for it is not you who are speaking, but the Set-apart Spirit.

8And He said, “See that you are not led astray, for many shall come in My Name, saying, ‘I am,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Then do not go after them.

9“But when you hear of fightings and unrests, do not be alarmed, for these have to take place first, but the end is not immediately.”

10Then He said to them, “Nation shall rise against nation, and reign against reign.

11“And there shall be great earthquakes in various places, and scarcities of food and deadly diseases. And there shall be horrors, and great signs from heaven.

12“But before all this, they shall lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the congregations and prisons, and be brought before sovereigns and rulers for My Name’s sake.

13“And it shall turn out to you for a witness.

14“Therefore, resolve in your hearts not to premeditate on what to answer.

15“For I shall give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries shall not be able to refute or resist.

11Beloved ones, if Elohim so loved us, we also ought to love one another.

12No one has seen Elohim at any time. If we love one another, Elohim does stay in us, and His love has been perfected in us.

13By this we know that we stay in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.

14And we have seen and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son, Saviour of the world.

15Whoever confesses that יהושע is the Son of Elohim, Elohim stays in him, and he in Elohim.

16And we have known and believed the love that Elohim has for us. Elohim is love, and he who stays in love stays in Elohim, and Elohim in him.

17By this love has been perfected with us, in order that we might have boldness in the day of judgment, because as He is so are we in this world.

18There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear holds punishment, and he who fears has not been made perfect in love.

19We love Him because He first loved us.

20If someone says, “I love Elohim,” and hates his brother, he is a liar. For the one not loving his brother whom he has seen, how is he able to love Elohim whom he has not seen?

21And we have this command from Him, that the one loving Elohim should love his brother too.

38“You heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth,’

39but I say to you, do not resist the wicked. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.

40“And he who wishes to sue you and take away your inner garment, let him have your outer garment as well.

41“And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two.

42“Give to him who asks of you, and from him who wishes to borrow from you, do not turn away.

43“You heard that it was said,a ‘You shall love your neighbour and hate your enemy.’

44“But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those cursing you, do good to those hating you, and pray for those insulting you and persecuting you,

45so that you become sons of your Father in the heavens. Because He makes His sun rise on the wicked and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous.a

46“For if you love those loving you, what reward have you? Are the tax collectors not doing the same too?

47“And if you greet your brothers only, what do you do more than others? Are the tax collectors not doing so too?

48“Therefore, be perfect,a as your Father in the heavens is perfect.

Hallelu-YAH .

Resha Caner · Jul 6, 2015

AlexDTX said:
Frankly, I don't think you have read my responses to other people, and I am tired of repeating what I have already said to them to you.

I'm not pretending anything here. I freely admit I haven't read every post in the thread. I'd be curious to know how many, besides you, that posted here have read all of them. If you think there is a post that cogently articulates your position, give me the number and I'll read it.

On the flip side, I will again point out that I have repeatedly asked you to provide support for your view, and I get nothing. Simply making a statement means nothing. Either give me the logic behind your opinion or give me the Bible passages that demonstrate this is more than your opinion. If to you discussion only means talking with people who agree with you, then I suppose we should draw this to a close.

But I will note I have repeatedly indicated the areas where we seem to agree. The problem is that I can't it let pass without comment that I think you are trying to support the right view with the wrong reasons.

AlexDTX said:
I pointed out in the beginning that the context is God and mammon, but it is a fair principle to apply it to other things, specifically civil government.

Why? Some might call that taking things out of context.

AlexDTX said:
Fundamentalists like to make a big deal about how the founding fathers were Christians. While I believe some were, clearly many others were not. Regardless, this country was founded upon rebellion to its mother country, Great Britain, over taxes and other issues the pale in comparison to the abuses of the US government today. Yet, American Christians are so brain washed into believing that obedience to government is God's will that they interpret disobedience to the government as disobedience to God Himself. If that were true, our whole nation's history is founded in disobedience to God. My thread is intended to get people thinking about who we are in Christ and our attitudes towards civil governments. Never in this thread or elsewhere have I promoted rebellion. Instead I have consistently stated that we are to preach the gospel and change the nation by changing individual hearts. But, I believe, American Christians need to be disconnected to this thinking of blind obedience to civil government and think through how God thinks about governments in general.

I generally agree with you. But let me ask you a few questions:
1) Is the form of American government bad or is it people that have caused the problems? Or is it something else?
2) If the issue from question #1 were corrected, do you think people could serve the U.S. government and God?
3) When is disobedience to the government justified?
4) Would Joseph have been justified in disobeying his Egyptian masters?
5) If you think he was justified, then why didn't he?

AlexDTX · Jul 7, 2015

Resha Caner said:
I'm not pretending anything here. I freely admit I haven't read every post in the thread. I'd be curious to know how many, besides you, that posted here have read all of them. If you think there is a post that cogently articulates your position, give me the number and I'll read it.

On the flip side, I will again point out that I have repeatedly asked you to provide support for your view, and I get nothing. Simply making a statement means nothing. Either give me the logic behind your opinion or give me the Bible passages that demonstrate this is more than your opinion. If to you discussion only means talking with people who agree with you, then I suppose we should draw this to a close.

But I will note I have repeatedly indicated the areas where we seem to agree. The problem is that I can't it let pass without comment that I think you are trying to support the right view with the wrong reasons.

Why? Some might call that taking things out of context.

I generally agree with you. But let me ask you a few questions:
1) Is the form of American government bad or is it people that have caused the problems? Or is it something else?
2) If the issue from question #1 were corrected, do you think people could serve the U.S. government and God?
3) When is disobedience to the government justified?
4) Would Joseph have been justified in disobeying his Egyptian masters?
5) If you think he was justified, then why didn't he?

Your answers are in the thread. If you don't see your answers it is because you are asking the wrong questions.

bhsmte · Jul 7, 2015

AlexDTX said:
Your answers are in the thread. If you don't see your answers it is because you are asking the wrong questions.

Do you think it is good for honest intellectual discussion, for you to decide which questions people ask?

AlexDTX · Jul 7, 2015

bhsmte said:
Do you think it is good for honest intellectual discussion, for you to decide which questions people ask?

We choose what we discuss. No one is under any obligation to answer any question on a forum. In this case, I had answered his questions previously, but his questions were not about the topic of the thread, which is, Can you serve two masters? which Jesus says we can not.

bhsmte · Jul 7, 2015

AlexDTX said:
We choose what we discuss. No one is under any obligation to answer any question on a forum. In this case, I had answered his questions previously, but his questions were not about the topic of the thread, which is, Can you serve two masters? which Jesus says we can not.

Then don't serve two masters.

Resha Caner · Jul 7, 2015

AlexDTX said:
We choose what we discuss. No one is under any obligation to answer any question on a forum.

Well, sort of. No one can force you to answer anything, but starting a topic and then refusing to discuss it is bad form. Don't worry. Other than this thread I have no plans to attempt a discussion with you again.

AlexDTX said:
In this case, I had answered his questions previously, but his questions were not about the topic of the thread, which is, Can you serve two masters? which Jesus says we can not.

I did address the question. My answer was that people can serve both God and government. Saying that does not mean I believe disobedience is always wrong. It becomes a hair-splitting exercise when disobedience has reached the point where one no longer serves the government, but I disagree that it's all or nothing. You seemed to agree that it doesn't have to be all or nothing.

Further, I share your disappointment in American government. I also share your feeling that the more distant it becomes, the worse it gets, and so the Federal government is the most disappointing of all.

The questions that followed were simply part of the discussion. Questions aid understanding, and that is really all I was after. I'm sorry that my reaction to "anarchy" put you off, but at least you now understand words can carry strong implications. Trying to appropriate a word to a more benign meaning doesn't usually work very well. It may not be true to the literal Greek roots of the word, but the modern meaning has strong connotations of violence and terrorism.

Regardless, I put that aside and tried to ask you some basic questions about where your ideas come from. My reason for asking is that you seem to take the "two masters" verses out of context. I actually did search the thread for the answers you claim you gave. Of course I could have missed something, but I don't see any explanations of your view (unless you mean post #12). All I found was your comment in the OP that the verses can be applied elsewhere and your comment to me that you've explained it. I don't see any actual explanations.

But apparently the well is already poisoned. So, peace to you. I hope you find what you need.

AlexDTX · Jul 7, 2015

bhsmte said:
Then don't serve two masters.

Thank you. I don't.

AlexDTX · Jul 7, 2015

Resha Caner said:
Well, sort of. No one can force you to answer anything, but starting a topic and then refusing to discuss it is bad form. Don't worry. Other than this thread I have no plans to attempt a discussion with you again.

I did address the question. My answer was that people can serve both God and government. Saying that does not mean I believe disobedience is always wrong. It becomes a hair-splitting exercise when disobedience has reached the point where one no longer serves the government, but I disagree that it's all or nothing. You seemed to agree that it doesn't have to be all or nothing.

Further, I share your disappointment in American government. I also share your feeling that the more distant it becomes, the worse it gets, and so the Federal government is the most disappointing of all.

The questions that followed were simply part of the discussion. Questions aid understanding, and that is really all I was after. I'm sorry that my reaction to "anarchy" put you off, but at least you now understand words can carry strong implications. Trying to appropriate a word to a more benign meaning doesn't usually work very well. It may not be true to the literal Greek roots of the word, but the modern meaning has strong connotations of violence and terrorism.

Regardless, I put that aside and tried to ask you some basic questions about where your ideas come from. My reason for asking is that you seem to take the "two masters" verses out of context. I actually did search the thread for the answers you claim you gave. Of course I could have missed something, but I don't see any explanations of your view (unless you mean post #12). All I found was your comment in the OP that the verses can be applied elsewhere and your comment to me that you've explained it. I don't see any actual explanations.

But apparently the well is already poisoned. So, peace to you. I hope you find what you need.

Resa,
Thank you for your gracious response. I had already acknowledged the context of the Lord's use of the statement being about God and money. But principles from a statement are widely accepted practice. I try to keep the context in perspective, and the focus of my thread was on the idolatry that patriotism can become. Colossians tells us that idolatry is a matter of the heart, not just conscious worship of graven images. In a nutshell, idolatry is anything that is put in place of God. Idolatry is rampant in America and the church. Believers put their faith in doctors more than the promise of healing by God, for example. Believers put their faith in their jobs more than the promise of God to take care of us. Idolatry is a subtle thing. There is nothing wrong with doctors or work. God uses many things to help us. But the heart is not a conscious realm of our minds, but a subconscious realm. And the heart is the realm that matters to God.

Xalith · Jul 7, 2015

@Resha Caner :

I generally agree with you. But let me ask you a few questions:
1) Is the form of American government bad or is it people that have caused the problems? Or is it something else?
2) If the issue from question #1 were corrected, do you think people could serve the U.S. government and God?
3) When is disobedience to the government justified?
4) Would Joseph have been justified in disobeying his Egyptian masters?
5) If you think he was justified, then why didn't he?

I believe I already answered some of these in my post here in this thread, but in case you missed it...

1). All governments are God-Ordained to keep order amongst the populaces in the civilizations in the world. He asks us through the Bible to submit to such governments as we would submit ourselves to Him. Didn't Jesus tell those who asked Him to 'Render Unto Caesar that which is Caesar's' (obeying the tax law)? As for the US Government, it is as good as any government is -- the government is not the problem, it is the people in the government. Is Jesus not our Lord of Lords, and King of Kings? He's a Monarch, a solo ruler, but yet His rule will be glorious. But yet, ask anybody today and they will tell you that a monarchy is not a very good form of government. It isn't the form of government, it is the person in the government. We could even say the same about dictators and despots; what's the difference between a King and a Dictator? There isn't much difference, really. Well, England also has a parliament below the Queen, but that isn't common amongst monarchies.

2). People should already submit themselves to the US Government and serve God at the same time. God commanded us to, in the Bible, to submit to the governments who have authority over us. He also tells us to serve our 'masters' (read: Employers) and do our work diligently as though we were doing His work so that He may be glorified through our actions. Now, if the people in the US Government weren't so corrupt, then that'd be all the better! Sadly, this isn't the case...

3). Anytime the government tells you to do something contrary to God's Law. A good example would be the new Gay "Marriage" law. If you're the leader of a church and the law forced you to hold a gay "marriage", then you should very much refuse, even if it means breaking up the church. But then again, the US Government doesn't have the authority to force a church to do such marriages; if a gay couple wants to get "married", then they can go to a civil office and do it, rather than use a church. But if that were to ever change, it'd be better for a church to disband than to disobey God.

4). Only if they had told Joseph to do something that goes against God's laws.

Greeble · Jul 8, 2015

I'm sorry, but my first reaction to your op was "huh?"

I am the child, niece, grand niece of missionaries. My church currently supports one school in Liberia and numerous mission trips to various countries in Central America and Haiti. (Along with the poor in our own community) Some of my best siblings have duo citizenship. The Christian community spans the world, and we can and do delight in each other's company in service to each other.

AlexDTX · Jul 8, 2015

Greeble said:
I'm sorry, but my first reaction to your op was "huh?"

I am the child, niece, grand niece of missionaries. My church currently supports one school in Liberia and numerous mission trips to various countries in Central America and Haiti. (Along with the poor in our own community) Some of my best siblings have duo citizenship. The Christian community spans the world, and we can and do delight in each other's company in service to each other.

Praise the Lord for your testimony, Greeble. A Christians whose first loyalty is Christ is comfortable in any nation because you are always a member of the Kingdom of God. As you said, the Christian community spans the world. Praise God!

Mark51 · Aug 3, 2015

AlexDTX said:
Today is July 4th, which is the day the United States declared its independence from Great Britain. In my own journey of life I had gone from a rebellious pagan against my country, to a believer in Christ who was encouraged by other Christians to be a patriot for my country, to a biblical anarchist. When I was a patriot, I grimaced at the thought of Americans celebrating Cinco de Mayo (5th of May) which is the day that Mexico declared its Independence from Spain. Also, how can Mexicans emigrate to the USA to become American citizens and still honor Cinco de Mayo? But the truth is, it has been capitalized by American merchants seeking another excuse to have a sale to lure customers in to shop.

Which brings me to the point of my question. Jesus said that a man can not serve two masters. He will either hate the one and love the other, or hold to one and despise the other (Matt. 6:24). The context of his statement is either serving God or money, but as a principle it could be any two things in opposition.

I am asking this question because of another thread on the forum which declared that Jesus was an anarchist. The author of that thread did not really invite conversation, which is why, I believe, it never took off. But, as I said in the beginning of this thread, I am now a biblical anarchist, by which I do not mean I believe in rebellion to earthly governments.

Instead, I mean I have one master, my Father in heaven, who is my king and I am a subject of his kingdom. How then, could I be a patriot to an earthly government at the same time I am a patriot to my Father's kingdom? So how do you all reconcile these two things? For I do not believe that such expressions as "for God and country" are biblical. Neither do I believe that God blesses any political organization, let alone America. He blesses those that are in Christ, since it is in Christ only that all blessings flow. What do you think?

Mark51 · Aug 3, 2015

Most people love the land of their birth. As good citizens, true Christians also respect the rulers and the emblems of the country where they reside, obey the laws, and make a positive contribution to the welfare of their community and their neighbors. (Romans 13:1-7; 1 Peter 2:13-17) They cannot, however, give blind devotion to one country as against all others. “Our country, right or wrong” is not a Christian teaching. So Christians who worship God cannot share in giving prideful patriotic worship to any part of the wild beast, for this would amount to worshipping the dragon-the source of authority of the beast. They cannot ask admiringly: “Who is like the wild beast?” Rather, they follow the example of Michael-his name meaning “Who Is Like God?”-as they uphold Jehovah’s universal sovereignty. At God’s appointed time, this Michael, Christ Jesus, will do battle with the wild beast and conquer it, even as he triumphed in expelling Satan from heaven.-Revelation 12:7-9; 19:11, 19-21.

Gottservant · Aug 8, 2015

No - all countries, as subjects of the king.

Or - one and one only.

Neochristian · Jan 16, 2016

That rule applies to all people, not just Christians, because it is an impossible thing, not a bad thing.

But, yes. If a person serves justice (one master) he can serve multiple countries, provided justices requires him to. Thus we have things like the UN.

The idea then is not to serve a country, but to serve a value or virtue: justice (and assume that your country is just). If you reexamine, you will notice that when we fight for or against social issues in politics, we are serving our country by helping to retain or restore justice.

SkyWriting · Jan 16, 2016

AlexDTX said:
But the truth is, it has been capitalized by American merchants seeking another excuse to have a sale to lure customers in to shop.

Hardly. I see many celebrations in the park and streets.
I've never seen one in a store.

AlexDTX · Jan 16, 2016

SkyWriting said:
Hardly. I see many celebrations in the park and streets.
I've never seen one in a store.

Buying food for a barbecue, buying fireworks, is not shopping?

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