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Can any being have infinite power?
- Thread starter nebulaJP
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A number of years ago, I asked a similar question about infinite power. The problem I think is that we get sloppy. Omni- more strictly means all. So if we think of omnipotent has meaning to have all the power there is, then a theist can (and should) simply dismiss the question as irrelevant. As long as they hold to the concept of 'infinite', though, they are stuck.
Infinite power, to me, is an incoherent concept. Think of 'having all the power there is to have'. Translate it to something like ergs. That's all of it. Total; complete. Now add 1 to it. Now add some more. And some more. Pretty soon it becomes clear that infinite power just isn't sensible.
Infinite power, to me, is an incoherent concept. Think of 'having all the power there is to have'. Translate it to something like ergs. That's all of it. Total; complete. Now add 1 to it. Now add some more. And some more. Pretty soon it becomes clear that infinite power just isn't sensible.
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- Nov 22, 2002
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This is a bad question and I understand the frustration Christians have with it. It is a paradox and frankly invalid.
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GrowingSmaller
Muslm Humanist
If we can count power in units, and units are on a continuum like numbers, then power may be infinite between two points, just are there is an infinity of fractions between 1 and 2, there may be an infinity of fractions of ergs.
Also if the universe is infinite, then its energy may be infinite too, and therefore its power could also be.
But i think if energy is released in "packets" of a certain size then an infinite division becomes meaningless.
Also if the universe is infinite, then its energy may be infinite too, and therefore its power could also be.
But i think if energy is released in "packets" of a certain size then an infinite division becomes meaningless.
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Personally I don't approve of Christians using the word "omnipotent."
Even though there are verses like this:
Matthew 19:26

And looking at them Jesus said to them, With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.
Mark 10:27

Looking at them, Jesus *said, With people it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God.
Luke 1:37

For nothing will be impossible with God.
.....Christians who say God is omnipotent still claim that God can't violate his own character or can't do things that aren't in his will or can't save us without the literal sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross for some mysterious reason etc.
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GrowingSmaller
Muslm Humanist
What difference would having infinite power make to resolving this "paradox of omnipotence"?
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Hmm. I wasn't making that distinction. Maybe I should have. Where I was getting the "infinite" from is dictionary.com:
om·nip·o·tent   [om-nip-uh-tuhnt] Show IPA
adjective
1.
almighty or infinite in power, as God.
2.
having very great or unlimited authority or power.
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I was kind of thinking of it as: if a being has infinite power, there would be nothing that this being cannot do. Yet with the paradox, whether the answer is yes or no, there is indeed something the being can't do.
I don't really understand your question.
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GrowingSmaller
Muslm Humanist
But does an infinite set have to have infinite variety?
This may not be a conventional understanding of "infinite power", but couldn't jumping up and down on the spot for all eternity be an expression of it?
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S
solarwave
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God doesn't have infinite power and He doesn't have a lot of energy or force to cause things to happen. God thinks, it happens. Weight only makes any difference if the cause of movement is physical.
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I don't know but I think I only mean this:
Can any being have the ability to do anything (rather than just some things)?
If God can do anything can he make a weight so heavy that he can't lift it?
Yeah, I think so. Since no mortal can to do that, it seems like something that would fall within the abilities of a deity - a deity who has the ability to do anything.
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sandwiches
Mas sabe el diablo por viejo que por diablo.
The problem that I've come to see with the question is that you're essentially asking: "Can God be stronger than himself?"
Now, many people take "omnipotence" to mean anything that can be done. However, to me, this has the problem that apparently God is incapable of doing things which I can verbalize and imagine, even if incompletely. Why call this God "OMNIpotent," then?
My answer, which I know is unsatisfying to most theists and even some atheists is that I see no reason why God should make sense to us. So to me, if a true omnipotent being exists, he can do anything I can imagine (including the illogical, absurd, physically impossible, etc) and much, much more. After all he's already supposed to have broken many rules of logic by being three beings in one, creating things from nothing, existing forever without time, never changing yet acting, breaking the laws physics all over the Bible, etc. I think for God, making a little square circle would be peanuts compared to creating the universe.
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Are there limitations on what he can affect with his thought? Examples: Can he reconcile a species to himself without incarnating himself as a member of that species and sacrificing himself for their sins? Can he think himself out of existence?
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solarwave
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Yes to the first question, but I assume you want to know whether it is possible without making mindless robots? If that is so then the answer is that I don't know. I don't know how the incarnation, sacrifice and resurrection work to bring about the salvation of a person or species.
I don't think God can think Himself out of existence as I think of God, Reality/Existence, and Goodness to be roughly the same thing.
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The infinite is not an amount like 1, .5, phi, or n. Its a collection of properties, the salient for this dicussion is that it increases without bound. As it applies to this question, for any rock that God creates, he could create a heavier rock. As his power increases without bound, it is said to be infinite.
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God not being bound by logic or reason is possible. But such a God is impossible to reason about or discuss, or to direct one's action towards. It might be true, but it is pointless to consider.
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sandwiches
Mas sabe el diablo por viejo que por diablo.
And meet one of the first road signs I followed out of Theismville.
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Let me give you a little background about this thread. I was watching a documentary called "The Nature of Existence" and in the beginning there are all these fast cuts with little sound bites from people of different religions and philosophies saying various unrelated things about God or existence. One of these little bits was a guy asking the question "if God is omnipotent, can he make a rock so heavy that he can't lift it" and then it cuts to something else. Upon hearing that I immediately made the OP in this thread.
The reason I'm interested in God's omnipotence, all-powerfulness, infinite power, ability to do anything, whatever, is because I don't understand the part of Christian theology that says God is very, very powerful but yet, for some reason due to his "holy," "righteous" and "just" attributes and our "sinful" attribute, the only way he was able to save us was by incarnating himself as a member of our species and sacrificing himself on the cross. I don't understand why a powerful being like God wouldn't have been able to do something like this from heaven.
If a Christian says God didn't need to come to the planet, that he could have saved us from heaven if he wanted to, but he just sent Jesus to the planet to show how much he loves us or something like that, then that would be an answer. It was unnecessary, but God did it anyway, in effect "just for show." However, I haven't heard any Christian say that the sacrifice of Jesus was unnecessary and that God is powerful enough that he could have accomplished our salvation from heaven. They always say that God could not have accomplished our salvation without the Cross. They are in effect saying he wasn't powerful enough to do it from heaven but that the Cross somehow helps him to accomplish our salvation.
Another answer to the "necessity of the cross" question is just to say that there are some things God can't do. Accomplishing our salvation without the literal sacrifice of Jesus would be one of them. If there are things that God can't do, don't say he's omnipotent. But if he's not omnipotent, what's up with the verses saying "all things are possible with God" that I posted earlier in this thread? Anyway, I thought maybe this "weight lifting" question might shed some light on the "cross" question but I could be wrong.
To answer your question: No, I can't see how there can be a weight that is too heavy for an omnipotent being to lift. If God can do anything then why wouldn't he be able to create such a weight? Obviously that's a bit of nonsensical question but we ARE dealing with the idea of omnipotence here, which may be inherently nonsensical.
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