Can a VP have classified materials/can they declassify - fact check

[DaisyDay]

DT's were locked up... Joe's were laying out in the garage... and at other locations... He said he didn't know he had them.. I don't lock up things that I am unaware of having.

That is simply not true. Donald has made the claim that you're repeating because he knows that there are photos of his documents on the floor and he wants to put that on Biden.

Not sure who you are talking about here... I think that, if I was VP and had boxes of documents in my garage.. I would know about them.

Good for your imagined version of yourself.

 

[JacksBratt]

Some of them were, some of the time, but whether or not they were locked up is irrelevant - what is relevant is that he knew that he had classified documents. We know that he knew this because he personally asked to have boxes brought to him so that he could go through them, classified documents were found in his desk and personal safe, and he is on tape apparently showing one of those classified documents to an author (and talking about how it's still classified).

It still doesn't matter... He was president and Biden was not.. Even if DT had documents that were still classified (I haven't heard the left screaming about this so I doubt this is one of their main points) the documents were locked and there was security on the grounds all the time.

Biden... never was the President.. Never had the authority.. Nor did Pense.... Where are their indictments.

The only reason we're discussing whether or not Biden's were locked up is because you've implied that they were lying out in the open in his garage, where he must have seen them. The documents being kept in boxes locked up in a cabinet (i.e. not visible to casual observation) counters that narrative. Provided he didn't go through those boxes, he would not know that they contained classified documents. If you have evidence that they were scattered about in plain view or that Biden did go through his boxes of documents, I'm sure the special counsel investigating the matter would like to see it.

There were pictures of them in the garage. It was reported that Hunter had parties there when there were foreign people of power there and others of questionable character....

This is all mute of course because Biden shouldn't of had them at all... even if they were locked up and protected by 100 armed guards... he was breaking the law.

Evidence for this? Everything I've seen says that they were kept locked up.

Still a mute point..

I could have a hand gun in my house.. locked up.. the police are still going to charge me with possession of a restricted weapon as I am not legally entitled to have it at all.

I'm certain that he knew that he had boxes of documents from his vice-presidency - no reason to not keep those in a locked cabinet if one is available. That's a reasonable thing to do with one's personal papers. However, there's no evidence that he knew there were any classified documents in those boxes.

Good for you, I guess? However, I'm reasonably certain that you are not Joe Biden, so what you would do is irrelevant.

You're correct... I am certainly not Joe Biden. However, I have as much right to classified documents from the US government ... as he did at the time... which is .........none.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

It still doesn't matter... He was president and Biden was not..

That doesn't make a difference. The President and Vice President are both authorized to possess classified materials while in office and both have some level of declassification authority. Once they leave office, they lose that authorization and that authority.

Even if DT had documents that were still classified

He did. I would suggest reading the indictment.

the documents were locked and there was security on the grounds all the time.

Irrelevant. Again, the only reason I brought up the storage situation is because you claimed that Biden had them out in the open and therefore must have known he had them.

Biden... never was the President.. Never had the authority.. Nor did Pense.... Where are their indictments.

Ask the Special Counsels tasked with investigating them. Pence's already finished and found no wrongdoing. Biden's is still investigating, so he may well be charged with something.

There were pictures of them in the garage.

Not that I've seen. Perhaps you're confusing them with the evidence photos from the FBI's search of Mar-a-Lago? The only purported pictures of Biden's documents that I've seen show a pile of junk off to one side of his garage (helpfully circled in red by some news outlets) and a box labeled "Important Documents" on a table. Neither photo shows anything resembling a classified document.

This is all mute of course because Biden shouldn't of had them at all... even if they were locked up and protected by 100 armed guards... he was breaking the law.

You're in violation of the law if you willfully (i.e. knowingly) retain classified materials that you are not authorized to possess. In other words, you must show that Biden knew that he had classified material, not simply that he had it. That's the difference between the two cases - at least as the currently available evidence stands. Trump knew that he had classified documents. Biden (as far as we know) didn't. If evidence surfaces that Biden was aware of the documents he had, then he should absolutely be charged.

Still a mute point..

The word is "moot".

I could have a hand gun in my house.. locked up.. the police are still going to charge me with possession of a restricted weapon as I am not legally entitled to have it at all.

Only if they can prove that you knew it was there.

 

[SimplyMe]

It still doesn't matter... He was president and Biden was not.. Even if DT had documents that were still classified (I haven't heard the left screaming about this so I doubt this is one of their main points) the documents were locked and there was security on the grounds all the time.

Oh, the bathroom had a lock on the outside (typically the lock is on the inside to prevent people from walking in when it is being used). Even the idea they were locked in a storage room is largely debunked -- while there was a lock, it appears many (maybe most) employees had access to the room, as allegedly video shows numerous workers came in and out during that time period.

Biden... never was the President.. Never had the authority.. Nor did Pense.... Where are their indictments.

What does being President have to do with it; it has nothing at all to do with the right to have classified documents after you out of office. None of them could legally possess Classified documents when they left office, period. It doesn't matter if they were President, Vice President, or Secretary of Defense.

The difference is, the law requires "intent" to keep the documents. In both Biden's and Pence's cases, they claim not to have known they had the documents and, when they were found, they immediately called the National Archives (NARA) to return them. As such, there is no "intent," making it so they cannot be charged. Of course, with Biden, there is a Special Prosecutor looking into it so he may still be charged, if the prosecutor finds that Biden knew about the documents and did not return them when he found out.

By contrast, there is evidence (such as the audio tape) that Trump knew he had Classified documents -- documents that he had not declassified and were still classified -- and he not only knew he had them but allegedly kept moving to keep the government from obtaining them. This is why Trump has been charged and not Pence or Biden (at least to this point).

There were pictures of them in the garage. It was reported that Hunter had parties there when there were foreign people of power there and others of questionable character....

There were pictures of them in the garage? I'd be interested in seeing that.

And to be clear, they weren't "in the garage," per se. Instead, the building (which is called the garage, since that garage takes up most of the building) includes an area that was a library -- though it appears it is more of a storage room now. The documents were in that storage room, not next to the car, and the storage room was locked.

This is all mute of course because Biden shouldn't of had them at all... even if they were locked up and protected by 100 armed guards... he was breaking the law.

Yes, and, as I pointed it, Trump shouldn't have had them and was breaking the law. The Presidential Records Act requires presidents to turn over all "Presidential Records" to NARA when they leave office. It doesn't matter if the documents are Classified or not, they are not supposed to be removed to the President's home.

The issue is, we tend not to charge officials for breaking the Presidential Records Act -- in fact, there are no provisions for breaking that law and Trump is not charged with that. Trump's issue is that NARA kept asking for the return of various Presidential Records and, what the law does state, is that if NARA cannot get them they notify the DoJ to assist them in getting the records returned. When Trump did not return them once the DoJ asked, the DoJ eventually went to court to get a court order for Trump to return the documents -- and Trump still did not return them all.

This is why Trump is being charged -- because he not only broke several laws but even violated a court order to return the documents. Had Trump fought a legal battle to keep them (as Pres. Clinton did with his tapes), that would have been different. Instead, Pres. Trump has never fought the return in court, instead he tried to hide them and to get his lawyers (after he hid documents from his lawyers) to certify (under penalty of perjury) that Trump had returned all of the documents.

Still a mute point..

I could have a hand gun in my house.. locked up.. the police are still going to charge me with possession of a restricted weapon as I am not legally entitled to have it at all.

You're correct... I am certainly not Joe Biden. However, I have as much right to classified documents from the US government ... as he did at the time... which is .........none.

Agreed. But if you didn't know that you had a gun in your residence, you could use that as defense. If you could prove it was put there without your knowledge, you likely could even keep from getting charged (such as you could show a burglar broke in but was startled and so hurried away but, unbeknownst to you, left his gun where you didn't ever see it).

So, Pence and Biden -- who had staff pack up their offices while they attended the inauguration of the new President (as is common White House practice) -- appear not to have known they had the documents, and turned them over as soon as the documents were found. By contrast, we have Pres. Trump who, even if he didn't know initially, didn't turn them over and, in fact, attempted to hide the documents he legally was not allowed to possess to keep them from being returned.

Perhaps Biden and Pence should be charged, though proving intent looks like it would be difficult. In Trump's case, he was charged because they allegedly have lots of evidence that he knew and refused to return them (to the point of defying a court order).

 

[JacksBratt]

That doesn't make a difference. The President and Vice President are both authorized to possess classified materials while in office and both have some level of declassification authority. Once they leave office, they lose that authorization and that authority.

From what I understand, this is not true. Only the President, while sitting, can do this.

He did. I would suggest reading the indictment.

The indictment is what he is charged with... it is not proven to be true. He has not stood trial to prove guilt.

Irrelevant. Again, the only reason I brought up the storage situation is because you claimed that Biden had them out in the open and therefore must have known he had them.

They were in the open. All news sources have stated that they were open and unsecured, in his garage.... only as secure as his corvette was.

Ask the Special Counsels tasked with investigating them. Pence's already finished and found no wrongdoing. Biden's is still investigating, so he may well be charged with something.

Pence apologized and admitted his guilt.... Wish that it was that easy for some peasants.

Not that I've seen. Perhaps you're confusing them with the evidence photos from the FBI's search of Mar-a-Lago? The only purported pictures of Biden's documents that I've seen show a pile of junk off to one side of his garage (helpfully circled in red by some news outlets) and a box labeled "Important Documents" on a table. Neither photo shows anything resembling a classified document.

I don't think that there needs to be a photo to understand that Biden had classified documents. Nobody is denying that.. They are just poo pooing it because he said he was unaware and gave them back.

You're in violation of the law if you willfully (i.e. knowingly) retain classified materials that you are not authorized to possess. In other words, you must show that Biden knew that he had classified material, not simply that he had it. That's the difference between the two cases - at least as the currently available evidence stands. Trump knew that he had classified documents. Biden (as far as we know) didn't. If evidence surfaces that Biden was aware of the documents he had, then he should absolutely be charged.

I don't think that Biden, at first, stated that he was unaware.. What he is aware of, at this time, is questionable.

The difference between the two cases is that DT had them locked up, secured and guarded. DT also had declassified them. DT was also fully authorized to posses them. Many Presidents do this and have admitted it. Obama and Clinton, Bush and Reagan.

The other difference is that DT is loathed by the left and they will quote: "do anything in their power to keep him from getting back to the office of President" That's Joe's own words.
Biden can do any number of things and the FBI, DOJ, CIA and many lawyers will refuse to indict or investigate.

The word is "moot".

Thanks... I'll try and remember that.

Only if they can prove that you knew it was there.

Pretty sure that I would be charged and that "proof" would be determined in court.

 

[JacksBratt]

Oh, the bathroom had a lock on the outside (typically the lock is on the inside to prevent people from walking in when it is being used). Even the idea they were locked in a storage room is largely debunked -- while there was a lock, it appears many (maybe most) employees had access to the room, as allegedly video shows numerous workers came in and out during that time period.

IDK... we'll see. From what I understand he has quite a security staff and system. Pretty sure they would know who went in and out.

What does being President have to do with it; it has nothing at all to do with the right to have classified documents after you out of office. None of them could legally possess Classified documents when they left office, period. It doesn't matter if they were President, Vice President, or Secretary of Defense.

Only the sitting president has authority to declassify and possess the declassified documents. That's why Pence apologized.

The difference is, the law requires "intent" to keep the documents. In both Biden's and Pence's cases, they claim not to have known they had the documents and, when they were found, they immediately called the National Archives (NARA) to return them. As such, there is no "intent," making it so they cannot be charged. Of course, with Biden, there is a Special Prosecutor looking into it so he may still be charged, if the prosecutor finds that Biden knew about the documents and did not return them when he found out.

Ya, pretty easy escape..'Um, officer, I had no idea that they were there". Pence, at least, had the integrity to own it and apologize.
Biden... not so much. At least it would be more believable if Biden was unaware.. Bet Hunter knew though.

By contrast, there is evidence (such as the audio tape) that Trump knew he had Classified documents -- documents that he had not declassified and were still classified -- and he not only knew he had them but allegedly kept moving to keep the government from obtaining them. This is why Trump has been charged and not Pence or Biden (at least to this point).

Well, that will all come out in court.. as to relevance and sustainable evidence or not.

There were pictures of them in the garage? I'd be interested in seeing that.

And to be clear, they weren't "in the garage," per se. Instead, the building (which is called the garage, since that garage takes up most of the building) includes an area that was a library -- though it appears it is more of a storage room now. The documents were in that storage room, not next to the car, and the storage room was locked.

To quote a country song "a picture is worth a thousand words but a word ain't worth a dime"

Yes, and, as I pointed it, Trump shouldn't have had them and was breaking the law. The Presidential Records Act requires presidents to turn over all "Presidential Records" to NARA when they leave office. It doesn't matter if the documents are Classified or not, they are not supposed to be removed to the President's home.

So, that would mean that Obama, Bush, Clinton and Reagan all broke the law as they have all done this. It is quite common.

The issue is, we tend not to charge officials for breaking the Presidential Records Act -- in fact, there are no provisions for breaking that law and Trump is not charged with that. Trump's issue is that NARA kept asking for the return of various Presidential Records and, what the law does state, is that if NARA cannot get them they notify the DoJ to assist them in getting the records returned. When Trump did not return them once the DoJ asked, the DoJ eventually went to court to get a court order for Trump to return the documents -- and Trump still did not return them all.

There is some discrepancy about this...

Not to mention that they sent a swat team and the media was already there... for DT..

For Biden.. they let his lawyers go over and get them....

Things that make you go hmmmmm.

This is why Trump is being charged -- because he not only broke several laws but even violated a court order to return the documents. Had Trump fought a legal battle to keep them (as Pres. Clinton did with his tapes), that would have been different. Instead, Pres. Trump has never fought the return in court, instead he tried to hide them and to get his lawyers (after he hid documents from his lawyers) to certify (under penalty of perjury) that Trump had returned all of the documents.

Charged is the correct term..
We'll see if it goes anywhere. There will always be something else that they will do to try to stop DT.

Everytime they do this.. his support grows.

Agreed. But if you didn't know that you had a gun in your residence, you could use that as defense. If you could prove it was put there without your knowledge, you likely could even keep from getting charged (such as you could show a burglar broke in but was startled and so hurried away but, unbeknownst to you, left his gun where you didn't ever see it).

I'm not sure if Canadian laws are the same. Having a hand gun, in Canada, is almost worthy of the death penalty.. Unless your using it in a crime or caught with it during a crime.. then you can go free on bail.

So, Pence and Biden -- who had staff pack up their offices while they attended the inauguration of the new President (as is common White House practice) -- appear not to have known they had the documents, and turned them over as soon as the documents were found. By contrast, we have Pres. Trump who, even if he didn't know initially, didn't turn them over and, in fact, attempted to hide the documents he legally was not allowed to possess to keep them from being returned.

Like I said, there is some discrepancy on this. I have heard that they tried to turn them in or offered to be there for people to get them.. the truth will come out if this goes anywhere. It's never as presented. The indictment is written and each point must be proven.

Perhaps Biden and Pence should be charged, though proving intent looks like it would be difficult. In Trump's case, he was charged because they allegedly have lots of evidence that he knew and refused to return them (to the point of defying a court order).

I think that they will have a hard time making any of this stick... It's not meant to. It's meant to distract from all the other things about the Biden's and the Biden admin.

 

[SimplyMe]

IDK... we'll see. From what I understand he has quite a security staff and system. Pretty sure they would know who went in and out.

Only the sitting president has authority to declassify and possess the declassified documents. That's why Pence apologized.

This is false. I was in the Air Force, not even a politician, and I was authorized to possess Classified documents -- up to Top Secret and including Compartmented information for the Compartments I was cleared for. I even worked in a SCIF (Sensitive Compartmented Information Facility) because I needed to be able to have Top Secret information at my desk.

Basically, everyone in the military is cleared to possess Secret information -- though they require the "need to know" to actually be able to possess them. It isn't just the President that can possess Classified documents.

As for Declassified documents, as a general rule anyone can possess those -- so long as they aren't otherwise limited by things like Privacy Act (which limits release because of any personal information contained in a document).

As for declassifying documents, it is not only the President that can declassify -- though he is the ultimate authority for any information Classified by the Executive Branch of the government. As this thread has talked about, the ability to declassify documents is not solely confined to the President -- it can be declassified by the agency that Classified the document originally (so the CIA can declassify their documents which they classified) and that power can be delegated -- as was mentioned the Executive Order that gave Vice Presidents the power to Declassify documents. There are also documents the President can't declassify, such as Nuclear Secrets, that are Classified by a law passed by Congress -- and it requires a Congressional act to declassify them.

Though this is all meaningless in this case as we have heard the tape (as is mentioned in the indictment) where former Pres. Trump talks about a Classified document he was showing and that he could have Declassified it as President but can't now -- we know not all the documents were declassified and, from the markings, it appears none of them were (or the markings would have been "removed").

Ya, pretty easy escape..'Um, officer, I had no idea that they were there". Pence, at least, had the integrity to own it and apologize.
Biden... not so much. At least it would be more believable if Biden was unaware.. Bet Hunter knew though.

Well, that will all come out in court.. as to relevance and sustainable evidence or not.

View attachment 333292


To quote a country song "a picture is worth a thousand words but a word ain't worth a dime"

Ok, please show me where there are any classified documents in that picture? What I see is a box of junk, I don't see any documents at all (classified or unclassified).

So, that would mean that Obama, Bush, Clinton and Reagan all broke the law as they have all done this. It is quite common.

I'm sorry, explain how they broke the law. To the best of my knowledge, none of them have Presidential Records. Obama specifically worked to ensure all Presidential Records (Classified and non-classified) were turned over to NARA, starting in the months before leaving the White House and ending when he left.

There is some discrepancy about this...

Not to mention that they sent a swat team and the media was already there... for DT..

For Biden.. they let his lawyers go over and get them....

Things that make you go hmmmmm.

No, I explained with Pres. Trump; they got a search warrant because the DoJ had been working for months to get the documents, the DoJ had to get a court order for him to turn them over, he turned over a few and his lawyers had "sworn" (under penalty of perjury) that Trump had turned in all the documents. The DoJ had reports that there were still documents at Mar-A-Lago and got a search warrant because a judge found they had probably cause -- which was verified by the fact they found Classified information at Mar-A-Lago. There was no SWAT team -- the pictures you've seen, taken outside of Mar-A-Lago of people in tactical gear with guns, are typically of Secret Service Agents, though depending on the picture, some have been local police. Most of them were not even taken the day of the search.

Biden, as soon as documents were found, he turned them in. That led to a search of his other offices, which led to finding the documents in the garage. And to really make you go "hmmmmm," it was the DoJ that found the documents in the garage -- Biden gave them permission to search, they didn't need to resort to getting a search warrant.

There is zero discrepancy about that.

Charged is the correct term..
We'll see if it goes anywhere. There will always be something else that they will do to try to stop DT.

Everytime they do this.. his support grows.

Or maybe it is just that Trump keeps breaking the law.

I'm not sure if Canadian laws are the same. Having a hand gun, in Canada, is almost worthy of the death penalty.. Unless your using it in a crime or caught with it during a crime.. then you can go free on bail.

Like I said, there is some discrepancy on this. I have heard that they tried to turn them in or offered to be there for people to get them.. the truth will come out if this goes anywhere. It's never as presented. The indictment is written and each point must be proven.

No, no descrepency, not if you actually find the facts. The AP does a decent job of showing the timeline. Also note that the Search Warrant was not issued until August 5, 2022 -- it was June 3, 2022 that Trump's lawyers stated, "they had conducted a “diligent search” of boxes moved from the White House and “any and all responsive documents” were turned over." So over a year and a half from when Trump was supposed to have turned over all "Presidential Records" (not just classified documents) and over 2 months from when Trump's lawyers had claimed all "responsive documents" had been returned, and the DoJ finds yet more Classified Documents.

You'll also note in that same May/June of 2022 timeframe it goes into details about the "tried to turn them over," which included not allowing the DoJ to look inside any of the boxes, as well as a video being shown to the Grand Jury in July showing some of the boxes being removed from the storage room.

If you listen to most any legal scholar, they largely admit that it does not look good for Trump; including Trump's own Attorney General; who stated the indictment was “entirely of his own making” and “not the result of unfair government prosecution.”

I think that they will have a hard time making any of this stick... It's not meant to. It's meant to distract from all the other things about the Biden's and the Biden admin.

Again, AG Barr (Trump's AG) disagrees with you. Most lawyers will tell you that the evidence against Trump is rather overwhelming. In fact, if you are interested, this article from Lawfare (a well respected legal publication) on one hand argues that the US should get rid of the Espionage Act while saying "The Trump administration’s record of Espionage Act prosecutions further casts doubt on the notion that Trump’s own indictment is a witch hunt. To the contrary, the allegations against Trump are more troubling than those against some of the individuals prosecuted under the Espionage Act during his administration."

 

[Pommer]

IDK... we'll see. From what I understand he has quite a security staff and system. Pretty sure they would know who went in and out.

Only the sitting president has authority to declassify and possess the declassified documents. That's why Pence apologized.

Ya, pretty easy escape..'Um, officer, I had no idea that they were there". Pence, at least, had the integrity to own it and apologize.
Biden... not so much. At least it would be more believable if Biden was unaware.. Bet Hunter knew though.

Well, that will all come out in court.. as to relevance and sustainable evidence or not.

View attachment 333292

Who put the Bright Red Circle on this photograph and what is it supposed to indicate?

 

[RocksInMyHead]

From what I understand, this is not true. Only the President, while sitting, can do this.

Wrong. The VP doesn't have the same level of declassification authority as the President, but he can declassify documents that he has classified, or documents that were classified by his office. This is covered by Executive Order 13526 (issued in 2009), as well as the preceding EO 13292 (issued in 2003).

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CFR-2010-title3-vol1/xml/CFR-2010-title3-vol1-eo13526.xml

The indictment is what he is charged with... it is not proven to be true. He has not stood trial to prove guilt.

His possession of classified documents has been factually established - the FBI executed a search warrant and discovered more than 100 classified documents at Mar-a-Lago. He's charged with willful retention of those documents - what needs to be proven is that he knew that he had them.

They were in the open. All news sources have stated that they were open and unsecured, in his garage.... only as secure as his corvette was.

Based on what information?

Pence apologized and admitted his guilt.... Wish that it was that easy for some peasants.

If he admitted guilt, why wouldn't the Special Counsel charge him? Both Pence and Biden apologized and returned the documents as soon as they found them.

I don't think that there needs to be a photo to understand that Biden had classified documents. Nobody is denying that.. They are just poo pooing it because he said he was unaware and gave them back.

There does need to be a photo to establish that they were scattered about in the open (and therefore he must have known about them).

I don't think that Biden, at first, stated that he was unaware..

He did.

The difference between the two cases is that DT had them locked up, secured and guarded.

They were not scored in a SCIF, which is the only type of facility that they could legally be stored in.

DT also had declassified them.

There are no records that any were declassified, and we know that at least one wasn't because Trump is on tape saying that it wasn't declassified. If that ends up being his defense in court, his lawyers will need to show that he did, in fact declassify them under the proper declassification procedures.

DT was also fully authorized to posses them.

Not after leaving office.

Many Presidents do this and have admitted it. Obama and Clinton, Bush and Reagan.

Evidence?

Pretty sure that I would be charged and that "proof" would be determined in court.

Only if the prosecution thought they could prove it, which would depend on the evidence. And if we're going to create an accurate analogy, it would be more like if you found an illegal gun in your house and turned it in to the police.

 

[JacksBratt]

This is false. I was in the Air Force, not even a politician, and I was authorized to possess Classified documents -- up to Top Secret and including Compartmented information for the Compartments I was cleared for. I even worked in a SCIF (Sensitive Compartmented Information Facility) because I needed to be able to have Top Secret information at my desk.

Basically, everyone in the military is cleared to possess Secret information -- though they require the "need to know" to actually be able to possess them. It isn't just the President that can possess Classified documents.

As for Declassified documents, as a general rule anyone can possess those -- so long as they aren't otherwise limited by things like Privacy Act (which limits release because of any personal information contained in a document).

As for declassifying documents, it is not only the President that can declassify -- though he is the ultimate authority for any information Classified by the Executive Branch of the government. As this thread has talked about, the ability to declassify documents is not solely confined to the President -- it can be declassified by the agency that Classified the document originally (so the CIA can declassify their documents which they classified) and that power can be delegated -- as was mentioned the Executive Order that gave Vice Presidents the power to Declassify documents. There are also documents the President can't declassify, such as Nuclear Secrets, that are Classified by a law passed by Congress -- and it requires a Congressional act to declassify them.

Though this is all meaningless in this case as we have heard the tape (as is mentioned in the indictment) where former Pres. Trump talks about a Classified document he was showing and that he could have Declassified it as President but can't now -- we know not all the documents were declassified and, from the markings, it appears none of them were (or the markings would have been "removed").



Ok, please show me where there are any classified documents in that picture? What I see is a box of junk, I don't see any documents at all (classified or unclassified).



I'm sorry, explain how they broke the law. To the best of my knowledge, none of them have Presidential Records. Obama specifically worked to ensure all Presidential Records (Classified and non-classified) were turned over to NARA, starting in the months before leaving the White House and ending when he left.



No, I explained with Pres. Trump; they got a search warrant because the DoJ had been working for months to get the documents, the DoJ had to get a court order for him to turn them over, he turned over a few and his lawyers had "sworn" (under penalty of perjury) that Trump had turned in all the documents. The DoJ had reports that there were still documents at Mar-A-Lago and got a search warrant because a judge found they had probably cause -- which was verified by the fact they found Classified information at Mar-A-Lago. There was no SWAT team -- the pictures you've seen, taken outside of Mar-A-Lago of people in tactical gear with guns, are typically of Secret Service Agents, though depending on the picture, some have been local police. Most of them were not even taken the day of the search.

Biden, as soon as documents were found, he turned them in. That led to a search of his other offices, which led to finding the documents in the garage. And to really make you go "hmmmmm," it was the DoJ that found the documents in the garage -- Biden gave them permission to search, they didn't need to resort to getting a search warrant.

There is zero discrepancy about that.



Or maybe it is just that Trump keeps breaking the law.



No, no descrepency, not if you actually find the facts. The AP does a decent job of showing the timeline. Also note that the Search Warrant was not issued until August 5, 2022 -- it was June 3, 2022 that Trump's lawyers stated, "they had conducted a “diligent search” of boxes moved from the White House and “any and all responsive documents” were turned over." So over a year and a half from when Trump was supposed to have turned over all "Presidential Records" (not just classified documents) and over 2 months from when Trump's lawyers had claimed all "responsive documents" had been returned, and the DoJ finds yet more Classified Documents.

You'll also note in that same May/June of 2022 timeframe it goes into details about the "tried to turn them over," which included not allowing the DoJ to look inside any of the boxes, as well as a video being shown to the Grand Jury in July showing some of the boxes being removed from the storage room.

If you listen to most any legal scholar, they largely admit that it does not look good for Trump; including Trump's own Attorney General; who stated the indictment was “entirely of his own making” and “not the result of unfair government prosecution.”



Again, AG Barr (Trump's AG) disagrees with you. Most lawyers will tell you that the evidence against Trump is rather overwhelming. In fact, if you are interested, this article from Lawfare (a well respected legal publication) on one hand argues that the US should get rid of the Espionage Act while saying "The Trump administration’s record of Espionage Act prosecutions further casts doubt on the notion that Trump’s own indictment is a witch hunt. To the contrary, the allegations against Trump are more troubling than those against some of the individuals prosecuted under the Espionage Act during his administration."

I'm sorry but I don't have the time, during this great summer weather, to address all our disagreements.


My mistake, I was not clear about "possession" of classified documents. Only the Chief of Staff.. the sitting president, can declassified and take them home...

If you want evidence for the documents in the picture in the garage... I'll get is as soon as you can show proof that every single box shown in the pictures from Maralorgo had once classified documents..From what I understand there was maybe one small folder...Optics are huge.. What the public perceives is more important that what is true.

Both sides show pictures. Both sides state that the pictures are of classified or once classified documents. So... I'll call even Steven.

Anyway... were not changing each others opinion here. Let time show the events as it passes and the accusations against DT, Hunter, Joe and all the rest... are rolled out.

I don't even have the energy to make popcorn... anymore.

Safe to say that these events have polarized the country. Hate is cultivated. Families are divided. Friends are spatting. Marriages are strained.....

Let the truth be revealed and let those who are guilty pay... no matter who.

Let's get back to a world where you can get a solid education, get a well paying job, pay for respectable housing, live without fear of criminals, have the freedom to speak your mind, can have pride in your country, agree to disagree, and have some cash left over for some entertainment, holiday, and have a long life after your retired.

God bless.

 

[JacksBratt]

Who put the Bright Red Circle on this photograph and what is it supposed to indicate?

I don't know who put the red circle there.. I'm guessing it indicates the "said documents" in the garage. I'm surprised that I even found it.. Most stuff goes missing on the internet.


Let's hope that time reveals all truth.

Can you accept that, if the Biden's are found to be corrupt?

If DT is proven to be corrupt.. I'll accept it... But, they have been after that man for 8 years.... and.... nothing.

 

[JacksBratt]

Wrong. The VP doesn't have the same level of declassification authority as the President, but he can declassify documents that he has classified, or documents that were classified by his office. This is covered by Executive Order 13526 (issued in 2009), as well as the preceding EO 13292 (issued in 2003).

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CFR-2010-title3-vol1/xml/CFR-2010-title3-vol1-eo13526.xml

His possession of classified documents has been factually established - the FBI executed a search warrant and discovered more than 100 classified documents at Mar-a-Lago. He's charged with willful retention of those documents - what needs to be proven is that he knew that he had them.

Based on what information?

If he admitted guilt, why wouldn't the Special Counsel charge him? Both Pence and Biden apologized and returned the documents as soon as they found them.

There does need to be a photo to establish that they were scattered about in the open (and therefore he must have known about them).

He did.

They were not scored in a SCIF, which is the only type of facility that they could legally be stored in.

There are no records that any were declassified, and we know that at least one wasn't because Trump is on tape saying that it wasn't declassified. If that ends up being his defense in court, his lawyers will need to show that he did, in fact declassify them under the proper declassification procedures.

Not after leaving office.

Evidence?

Only if the prosecution thought they could prove it, which would depend on the evidence. And if we're going to create an accurate analogy, it would be more like if you found an illegal gun in your house and turned it in to the police.

See post #54

 

[DaisyDay]

I'm sorry but I don't have the time, during this great summer weather, to address all our disagreements.


My mistake, I was not clear about "possession" of classified documents. Only the Chief of Staff.. the sitting president, can declassified and take them home...

If you want evidence for the documents in the picture in the garage... I'll get is as soon as you can show proof that every single box shown in the pictures from Maralorgo had once classified documents..From what I understand there was maybe one small folder...Optics are huge.. What the public perceives is more important that what is true.

I don't see how you reached that understanding, "maybe one small folder" at Mar-A-Lago, in light of all the evidence, photographic and otherwise. No one has claimed that every single box contained classified documents, so that's a pretty feeble straw man.

Both sides show pictures. Both sides state that the pictures are of classified or once classified documents. So... I'll call even Steven.

There is the written inventory of what the FBI took from Mar-A-Lago. Who knows what all are in the boxes sent to Bedminster hours before the "raid".

Anyway... were not changing each others opinion here. Let time show the events as it passes and the accusations against DT, Hunter, Joe and all the rest... are rolled out.

I don't even have the energy to make popcorn... anymore.

Safe to say that these events have polarized the country. Hate is cultivated. Families are divided. Friends are spatting. Marriages are strained.....

Do you ever change your opinion? Do you think that would be a sign of strength or weakness?

Let the truth be revealed and let those who are guilty pay... no matter who.

Agreed.

 

[SeventhFisherofMen]

MOD HAT ON

Please remember to be courteous, no flaming and even though we may disagree at the end of the day we are all still valued individuals. No one is perfect i know i struggle with this too. If you're curious as to a reminder of the sitewide rules for what is allowed click here
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MOD HAT OFF​

 

[DaisyDay]

I'm sorry but I don't have the time, during this great summer weather, to address all our disagreements.

You're not having the heat wave up there? I hope you are upwind of the smokey fires - we get hit when the wind shifts and I don't know how people who live nearby cope.

My mistake, I was not clear about "possession" of classified documents. Only the Chief of Staff.. the sitting president, can declassified and take them home...

?? The Chief of Staff is a cabinet position, somewhat like an office manager which has little to do with classified stuff - you might be thinking of Commander in Chief (aka President). There are many levels to classification, from "confidential" to "top secret". Vice presidents may have classification/declassification powers, depending on the rules in effect at the time of office. Cheney, for instance, had very broad powers.

 

[JacksBratt]

You're not having the heat wave up there? I hope you are upwind of the smokey fires - we get hit when the wind shifts and I don't know how people who live nearby cope.

No hotter than other summers.... People forget... it's summer.. it gets hot....

Smoke is going everywhere, hazy day one day, clear the next.

?? The Chief of Staff is a cabinet position, somewhat like an office manager which has little to do with classified stuff - you might be thinking of Commander in Chief (aka President). There are many levels to classification, from "confidential" to "top secret". Vice presidents may have classification/declassification powers, depending on the rules in effect at the time of office. Cheney, for instance, had very broad powers.

Sorry... Commander in Chief?

 

[Pommer]

Sorry... Commander in Chief?

Article 2, section 2, clause 1

 

[USincognito]

OK, then how come Hillery has gotten away with it?

What, exactly, do you think she got away with? I ask because a lot of the audience of the Conservisphere have narratives and talking points rather than facts.

They do not want the rules to be applied equally. It would be very simple to have term limits in congress, to have laws or rules apply equal to all. If you want to see the passport of our president, make it law they have to do this before they are sworn into office. Or if you want to know the finance of congress, require them to submit a yearly form showing where all the money comes from that goes into their account. We could require them to post this 3 to 6 month before an election. I am open for almost any requirements but let's have it in clear language that everyone can understand.

Most of this is irrelevant to the OP, but I do want to address the rules being applied equally. If any of us had 1/10th the number of documents the ex-President had, we wouldn't have had numerous, friendly visits from NARA, we'd have had a 6am guns and underwear raid. If any of us had one, much less dozens of national defense documents, we wouldn't have spent the winter at a golf resort, we'd be in jail.

 

[USincognito]

Hillary kept an unauthorized and illegal private server on which she kept classified information. That is, what what was illegal was keeping classified information on the server since it was not secure.

Please cite for us the germane section of the United States Code stating that it is illegal for an appointed official to have a private email server.

Also, who else do you want prosecuted?

https://wapo.st/3rUoCRr

Hillary said she did not have classified documents on the server.

She was correct. She had no classified documents on the server.

It appears that her lack of security allowed foreign countries to obtain classified information.

That is a falsehood. Why are you posting mendacity like that?

 

[USincognito]

It goes to due process. Are people being treated equally under the law? Without due process our Republic is at an end. You see, the government is trying to find anything they can to prevent Trump from being elected president. That is not the role of the government.

This is hilarious.

Leaving aside the fact that the Green Bay Sweep, "find me 11,780 votes, one more than we need", the Big Lie and encouraging J6, let's look at the documents.

NARA politely asked Donald for a year to return the 11,000 pages and 100+ classified documents he stole. There was even evidence he moved them to hide them from NARA and DOJ personnel. He still received a courtesy notification from the FBI before the search warrant was executed that allowed him to be away from MAL and not embarrassed by law enforcement.

He's allowed to remain free, didn't post bond, etc. Contrast that with Reality Winner, the young woman who, because of a single document, went through the typical treatment of arrest, bond, etc.

If you or I had stolen 100 classified docs, there would be no polite NB negotiation with NARA or any other agency. There'd be a 6am perp walk in our underwear.

Don't give us this "unequal treatment" garbage and expect to be taken seriously.b