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Can a soldier be called a saint?

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classicalhero

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Digout said:
A person in possession of a sword is considered as a transgressor.
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I am a transgressor also and so is everyone else. But thankfully I am a transgressor saved by Grace and so can a soldier be in the same category.
 
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98cwitr

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classicalhero said:
I am a transgressor also and so is everyone else. But thankfully I am a transgressor saved by Grace and so can a soldier be in the same category.
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Digout said:
I don't plan to die by a sword! Grace doesn't save deliberate sinners nor transgressors!
Click to expand...

John 15; Hebrews 10:26; 1 John 3 & 5
 
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98cwitr

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Digout said:
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Contemporary misconception, as is with many, is that by Grace we are still allowed to sin deliberately and grace will simply and continually cover those sins...Bible says otherwise.
 
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I am a Soldier.

I am a Soldier confused about this thread. 98cwitr and Digout, do you suppose that being a Soldier is the same as being a sinner? I ask that because that is the impression I am getting but I don’t want read something into what you both have written. So I ask you to answer the question frankly, “Can a Soldier not be a Christian?” Another question, “Can a Soldier, if it is possible for him to be a Christian, not participate in sharing the Gospel of Christ?” I would ask that you give me precise biblical evidence to support your answer (please do not merely list chapter references, i.e., John 15; Hebrews 10:26; 1 John 3 & 5, but expound upon them!). Thank you!

I am a Christian.
 
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Digout

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Please read the Sermon on the Mount. There can be no enemy for a killing for a believer in Jesus Christ.

James 1
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
 
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Digout said:
Please read the Sermon on the Mount. There can be no enemy for a killing for a believer in Jesus Christ.

James 1
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Click to expand...

I asked that you not merely list a biblical reference, but that you would expound (explain what it means to the original readers) upon whatever you have referenced. The reason for that is because maybe I am new at the Bible and have a hard time understanding the meaning as it relates to our discussion. What if I don’t know what the Sermon on the Mount is? Also, I don’t understand your second sentence so I will not address it (please reword it).
 
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Digout

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Again I urge you to read the Sermon on the Mount that is found in the Gospel book written by St. Matthew from chapters 5 to 7 of the Bible. You will notice that the preaching of Jesus Christ is easy to understand but difficult to practice!

I will be happy to discuss subsequently. I am sure you will also understand my second sentence also after your reading.

Be blessed
 
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98cwitr

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No, no more than any other profession where you may be required to take life. Same goes with policemen and doctors. All whose which professions suggest their primary goal to protect and preserve life or a way of life for people whom they are charged to protect. Such duties are not for everyone though...I went to MEPS twice and when I couldnt get 25B I backed out. I have many friends who are active military...one even 11B. Im not here to judge, and have immense respect for our armed forces, at least those who serve with honor and do not abuse their power.

To also confess, I am no where near Mr. holier-than-thou. I own guns and lock the doors and windows at night because I fear someone breaking in and hurting my family, and if it came to either using deadly force or taking a risk and attempting to share the Gospel at the point where I felt in danger I feel that my faith is so small and fear is so great I'd just pull the trigger. I feel that my materialism and greed would simply overcome the stark realization that Christ would let a man rob His house and give the thief a few things because material objects are of little value to Christ. While I could go on about this being a defensive action and military campaigns being offensive, I will digress and simply say that none of us are perfect, so we should consider all we do, and more importantly...why we do it.

I said all of that to ask this, why would a professing Christian put themselves into a profession where they may be required to kill someone? I would assume who took Christ's words of "turn the other cheek" and "bless those who persecute you" and "do not resist an evil person" would not actively seek such things. Nevertheless, doing so I suppose doesn't make you more or less of a sinner than myself...but let's be honest with each other instead of making excuses for sin.

This will be real embarrassing if you're an Army Chaplain or in a non-combatant role. Aye...solider first though right?
 
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My Rebuttal against the idea that a Soldier cannot be a Christian:

“They were the army of worshippers unlike offensive system of a secular governments!”

“Prayerful people are different from secular army with their war thirsty machinery.”

“A person in possession of a sword is considered as a transgressor.”
“I don't plan to die by a sword! Grace doesn't save deliberate sinners nor transgressors!”

“Contemporary misconception, as is with many, is that by Grace we are still allowed to sin deliberately and grace will simply and continually cover those sins...Bible says otherwise.”

Here are the statements of people who have not thought out their stance on the subject of pacifism (the idea in opposition to acts of violence in order to settle a dispute). For they broaden their phylacteries by loosely throwing around the Scriptures and lengthen the tassels of their garments by spewing out Christian clichés to prove their point (Matthew 23:5). Clearly you are blind guides with dulled senses; you cannot tell an apple from an orange.

There are two warfare’s being waged in the world today: the spiritual and the physical. One is an apple and the other is an orange. The Bible speaks clearly about each of these conflicts. Of the Spiritual, the Bible informs the Christian to put on their spiritual armor and offers an offensive weapon, the sword of the Spirit—God’s Word. “For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places” (Ephesians 6:12). “Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul” (1 Peter 2:11). These are only a couple of verses that state what we all know and agree on: we are in a spiritual conflict!

But do not be so foolish as to believe we are not also in a physical conflict. To deny that would be to invite due criticism. First, let me begin my argument by confirming that I loathe violence and long for the return of Christ, who is both Lord and Savior of all who believe in him. One day the need for armies will be non-existential. Unfortunately, that day has not arrived. As it now stands, there are those in the world that would strike you down for as little as a piece of bread or for as much as a worldly ideology. The need for physical security and stability in the world is a paramount for civilization!

Consider what you would do if someone were to invade your family member’s home, steal all of his possessions and take him, his wife, and all his children. If it were in your power you would everything possible to pursue that person and take back your family—even if you had to use violence. Maybe you would not? I can tell you a man who did: Abraham (read Genesis 14:12-16). But you might argue, “The OT spiritual standards were incomplete, and hence not applicable to people who believe in Jesus!” (Digout #25). Jesus said, “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad” (John 8:56). The prophets also believed in Jesus and searched diligently for his coming (1 Peter 1:10-12). So comparing the OT with the NT in this scenario is fruitless.

But the need for protection doesn’t only apply to one’s home, it applies to the nation as well. Have you not read that “secular government” was instituted by God and that “whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves” (Romans 13:2)? Why has God ordained government? Because a sinful world needs stability and government is “a minister of God for you…an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil” (Rom. 13:4).

Now don’t think that I am condoning the unrighteous abuse of government. The world is full of ungodly men that use government as a means to promote their own selfish ideology. For this very purpose it is necessary for godly men to control the government, or at least work to keep it in check. Likewise, it is imperative for Christians to saturate the ranks of our military. What if there were no Christians in our military? It would be void of righteous decisions. It would be a merciless army awaiting a leader to rise to power and willing to execute ungodly orders. There would be no checks and balances. Not only would they point the weapons of destruction outward, but they would be willing to turn on their own fellow citizens. Indeed, it would turn into “war thirsty machinery” (Digout, #14).

Digout, do you not plan to die by a sword? Neither did James, but he died by the sword; so did John the Baptist (Matthew 14:10; Acts 12:2). So did Paul, according to tradition. Therefore, is it not possible that you have misinterpreted what Jesus was talking about in Matthew 26:51-56? Jesus told the servant to “Put your sword back into its place” (v. 52; BTW, John identifies the servant as Peter, Jn. 18:10). In other words, this is not the place to use the sword, this is a spiritual matter, and “How then will the Scriptures be fulfilled, which say that it must happen this way?” So this was a spiritual battle.

It has been pointed out by Yekcidmij (#5) about the cases of the two Centurions. The first came to Jesus and asked for help, the other sent for Peter to explain salvation. Digout replied, “But they were not recognized as saints!” (#9). And so you, Digout, assume that these men did not believe, or have faith in Christ. That is ironic since in the same post you accuse someone else of making an assumption. But what does the Bible say about these Soldiers?

In Luke 7…
1. He loved his sick servant. (2)
2. He loved Israel and even built a synagogue for them. (5)
3. He acknowledged his own unworthiness and addressed Jesus as Lord. (6-7)
4. Placed confidence in the power and words of Jesus; His faith amazed Jesus, who said, “I say to you, not even in Israel have I found such great faith.” (8-9)

It seems to me that this centurion was truly a believer! That makes him a Christian; that makes him a saint. And what of Cornelius in Acts 10?

1. He was a devout man, who feared God, gave money to the poor of Israel, and prayed continually. (10; wow, if only Christians today were that committed!)
2. He obeyed God by sending his servants to get Peter. (8)
3. His servants described him as “a righteous and God fearing man.” (22)
4. When he heard the truth of the Gospel of Jesus, he believed and the Holy Spirit came upon him and he was baptized…just like every other Christian is supposed to be. (44-48)

Again, it is clear that this centurion was a true believer. You infer that these two men just walked away from their positions in the Roman army. First of all, they wouldn’t have lived very long if they had deserted. Second, if they would have been martyrs it is unlikely that the writers would not have mentioned it. Third, if you assume that these men deserted their posts or did not actually believe because of a lack of “the bible said so,” we could easily go the other way and say that the bible didn’t say otherwise. In fact, in context, it is more easily acceptable to infer that these men followed Christ while remaining in their professions after these events.

Lastly, I want to address the rubber stamping of one’s argument with a “Christian” cliché in order to add value to one’s side of an issue, even if it doesn’t necessarily add to the conversation. Here is how 98cwitr validates the pacifistic view: “Contemporary misconception, as is with many, is that by Grace we are still allowed to sin deliberately and grace will simply and continually cover those sins...Bible says otherwise.” And yet you are so patriotic with your American flag icon! How ironic, you condemn me and yet you pay me to fight for your liberty.

I asked you, Digout, to expound on the Scriptures you have set forth for your argument. What part of the Sermon on the Mount addresses the salvation (or lack of) of a Soldier? Is it Matthew 7:1? Truly enough, “the preaching of Jesus Christ is easy to understand,” but I don’t think you understand how to use it for your argument.
 
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98cwitr said:
that flag icon was forced upon me by the forum when I selected "United States" in the "Country" field during registration I'd pick a confederate flag if I could!
Click to expand...

Patriotic indeed, LOL! By the way, I am not a Chaplain, although that was my intent, but you may be surprised to know I am a 25W and work with some Bravo's from time to time (although I was an MP at one time). With that said, the Signal Corps is not immune to combat.

My question for you is, how can you not be holier-than-thou to someone who you claim cannot be holy at all? How can you on one hand have immense respect for Soldiers and on the other count me as a sinner based on the fact that I am a Soldier; isn't that a contradiction? Yes, I am a sinner, not because I am a Soldier, but because I am a sinner. Like you, I have found salvation in Christ.

You seem to have the same view for Police officers and doctors as well (although I don't understand the view towards doctors). I can only answer for how I can be a Soldier with a clear conscience towards God. I have enlisted in the U.S. Army because I am confident we are a nation that doesn't attack and destroy the innocent. On the contrary, we defend the weak and innocent from the tyrants of the world.

Some people may sit back and watch CNN and come to their own conclusions, but my friend, I have been Iraq and Afghanistan multiple times and other parts of the world as well. Never have I witness the intentional destruction of innocent people. Never have I even heard of such an order. Have there been situations where innocent lives were harmed? Yes. Have there been renegade Soldiers commit war crimes? Yes, and I applaud when they come to justice.

In contrast of these isolated events stands the good done in the world by American Soldiers (and others as well). If a thousand Taliban have been killed by these "war thirsty" machines, a hundred thousand innocent lives have been saved by the efforts of our military. Not only do we go armed with our weapons, but often we go with pencils, and books, and paper, etc, to help poor school children get an education. I have conducted missions (with Soldiers and Marines) with the sole purpose of building medical facilities for a third world country. I am sure this isn't a real number, but I would say for every armed conflict the military engages in, it also engages in a hundred relief missions.

Yes, Service Members are required to know how to kill and destroy the enemies of the United States of America. We do not do so because we hate others. We do not do so because we love to murder. We do so because God has ordained it and someone must do it (Romans 13:1-4).

You are correct, not everyone can do it, in fact only less than one percent do it. And only a small fraction of those ever have to pull a trigger. Many of these men are haunted for the rest of their lives by the fact they had to kill another person. Many of these men never come home. Why is that? To preserve the lives of the innocent; to give maintenance to the liberty of others and give them the right to hate and criticize the very military service members who give them their freedom. Many of these are Christians--the very children of God--who "from weakness were made strong, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight...men of whom the world [is] not worthy" (Hebrews 11:34 & 38).

I close with this request: stop trying to shame the service members who are trying to preserve your freedom. Instead, put your energy towards stopping the real murderers, that is, those who condone and support abortion.
 
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