Can a person be unsaved/?

[nitrox314]

Here is an interesting question that brings some animosity between my wife and I when studying.

Can a Christian who has accepted Jesus, been baptised and has walked the life for years then turns away from God and Jesus still be saved if they do not come back?

Some people seem to believe that once your saved your saved for good no matter what you do. That is not my opinion however.

So what is your opinion on the matter? If someone who has accepted Jesus previously and turns from Him and dies, does that person still get entrance to Heaven? Please explain reasoning with scripture to back up please

 

[a pilgrim]

Here is an interesting question that brings some animosity between my wife and I when studying.

Yikes! Brother, I hope you can aleviate the animosity. Don't let doctrine get between you and your sweetypie! Smoochin', fried chicken, etc. Bad things to miss!

Can a Christian who has accepted Jesus, been baptised and has walked the life for years then turns away from God and Jesus still be saved if they do not come back?

To me, that's the crux of the matter, ". . . if they do not come back?" A passage that has come to mean ALOT to my view on the REAL Christian life is:

John 10
[27] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
[28] And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Do you see those to bold statements:

1. They follow me
2. I give unto them eternal life.

So, which is this, Calvinist, or Arminian in thought? How about neither, how about Bible!

Some people seem to believe that once your saved your saved for good no matter what you do. That is not my opinion however.

What many have done, in an effort to (wrongly) prop up the doctrine of Justification by Faith, (which they do not have to do,) have wrestled it out of it's context and made it say something it is not saying. Let's look at a classic case passage:

Romans 4
[1] What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
[2] For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
[3] For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it [his belief/faith, insert mine] was counted unto him for righteousness.
[4] Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
[5] But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
[6] Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
[7] Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
[8] Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

This imputation of righteousness is based solely on faith/belief on the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary, plus nothing, minus nothing. Works have NOTHING to do with the judicial act of being declared, not only innocent, in the court room of heaven, but, yea, righteous to boot!

However, the Christian faith is a life changing faith. If someone has been saved by the grace of God, that grace is going to lead them to a like of obedience and service. Notice:

Titus 3
[8] This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
[14] And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

James 2
[17] Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
[18] Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
[19] Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
[20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
[21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
[22] Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
[23] And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

James does not contradict Paul, he only confirms what Paul said in Romans and Titus, an imputed righteousness, produces works.

So what is your opinion on the matter? If someone who has accepted Jesus previously and turns from Him and dies, does that person still get entrance to Heaven? Please explain reasoning with scripture to back up please

Whether they will get into Heaven is ultimately still up to the Lord. I, you, nor anyone else on the planet KNOWS the state of their heart when they died. They may or may not have TRUELY been IN THE FAITH. Or, they may have been in the faith and suffered the ultimate discipline:

I John 5
[16] If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
[17] All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
[18] We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Four important statements:

1. There IS a sin unto death - one CAN die because of their sin.
2. This is a sin NOT UNTO death - there is a level of sin where God will not take someone home.
3. We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not - that is to say, the pattern of constant, unrepentant sin, is not the testimony of those who are saved.
4. He that is begotten of God keepeth himself - the Spirit of God in a believer will work in his life to change him and KEEP him from a life of sin and it's subsequent consequences.

My two cents worth,
Ben

 

[MrJim]

Yes the NT warns about falling away...there are a bajillion threads about "Eternal Security" over in the Baptist forum lol

 

[Freedom&Light]

Hebrews 6:4-6

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

 

[linssue55]

Here is an interesting question that brings some animosity between my wife and I when studying.

Can a Christian who has accepted Jesus, been baptised and has walked the life for years then turns away from God and Jesus still be saved if they do not come back?

Some people seem to believe that once your saved your saved for good no matter what you do. That is not my opinion however.

So what is your opinion on the matter? If someone who has accepted Jesus previously and turns from Him and dies, does that person still get entrance to Heaven? Please explain reasoning with scripture to back up please

Once we are saved, we are saved FOREVER!!



Rom 8:38-39
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, (MAN with their false doctrines and Arrogance) shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

{Doctrine of Eternal Security - Once in the Relationship, No Out}
John 10:28~~"As well, I {Jesus} give {it is a gift he gives} them {My sheep} eternal life {salvation is PERMANENT--IRREVOCABLE}, and they will absolutely NO {ouk} . . . NOT EVER {me} . . . perish {apollumi}. Neither {Kai ouk} can anyone {man, angel, or God Himself - because He declared it} will ever 'seize by violence'/snatch them from My hand/grasp {cheir}.

{Note: Apollumi means to perish - to be absolutely obliterated. It refers to Revelation 20:15 where all who are not in the book of life/unbelievers will be tossed into the Lake of Fire. Once you follow the shepherd out the door (faith in Christ) into the pasture, you receive the GIFT of eternal life. You did not earn it, nor can you DO anything to lose it.}

{Note: Ouk and me are both negatives. Two negatives together in the Greek is a very strong negative (as opposed to English where it would be a positive). Now the verb apollumi is in the subjunctive mood. When you put a double negative followed by a subjunctive, it means it is totally impossible - no way! - for a believer to lose his salvation - VERY strong - over and out.}

{Note: Cheir is the Greek word for the human hand. When attributed to God the Father it is an anthropomorphism, which is attributing characteristics of man to God. Your hands move when your brain tells it to. It means when you are His sheep, no one will steal you away even if you wanted to be stolen!}

 

[Simon_Templar]

This issue is a contentious one that is hotly debated in many circles. One of the reasons for this is because there are scriptures that both sides use to proof text their view.

Both sides are convinced that they correctly understand the scriptures they use, and they either rationalize, or ignore the scriptures that the other sides uses.

I would argue, that this is because neither side really understands the basics of 'salvation' as it was originally understood.

I realize this may sound a bit arrogant.. and probably cheeses some people off... but never the less, there it is.

To lay it out as short as possible (I'm usually renowned for being long winded)... In order to understand salvation you have to understand it in the context of the old testament.. or more accurately.. the old covenant.

God fashioned the Old Covenant to forshadow, or to fore tell the New Covenant.

Taking a step back, you probably need to first understand that a "covenant" in biblical terms is not simply an agreement or a contract. A covenant is a family bond.
Thus to be in covenant meant to essentially create a family bond.

Ok, taking that as background.. God first made covenant with Abraham and he stated that Abraham's family would be his people (ie his family) and he would be their God. Technically God made two covenants with Abraham.. but that is a little beyond the pale here.
The sign of the covenant God made with Abraham was circumcision. To be a part of the covenant (ie to be a part of the family) you had to be circumcised. God said that anyone who wasn't circumcised was breaking his covenant and was cut off from the family.

After the Exodus from Egypt, God renewed this covenant and expanded the terms of the covenant. He added to circumcision the requirement that the members of the covenant family had to keep the passover. First a person had to be circumcized and then they had to keep the passover every year.

Now, these actions, being circumcised and keeping the passover meant that a person was a member of the covenant family, which after the Exodus included the nation of Israel. Israel was the covenant and if a son born to Israelite parents was not circumcised, he was cast out of Israel because he was not part of the covenant.

So.. there were many Israelites who were circumcised and who kept the passover.. but they themselves were not righteous people. As a result, they were part of the covenant, they were part of the family.. they had all the rights and privilages of being in the covenant... but in the end, they were still judged as wicked and they were condemned.

So, in other words, being a member of the covenant did not gaurentee eternal life, or right relationship with God.
However, being part of the covenant DID secure rights and privilages that non-members did not have. Most importantly a person who was not a member of the covenant could not be in direct relationship with God as a person in the covenant could be.

The New Covenant is essentially the same in this respect. People are made members of the covenant family of Jesus Christ by baptism and they participate in the covenant by partaking in the new passover, which is communion.

When a person is baptized, if it is done with faith and repentance, then they are a member of the covenant. That can not be undone. Just like circumcision, they are a member of the covenant family till they die.

However, merely being a member of the covenant family does not mean that you are actually a righteous person. Being a member of the covenant family means that you have the rights and privilages of the family.. you have access to grace, you have access to relationship with God.
Having this access, however, does not mean that a person will necessarily use it or allow it to change them.

Such a person is frequently represented in the New Testament by the image of a plant or a tree that is watered, and pruned, and cared for... but yet it bears no fruit. This person was in the covenant, they received all the benefits, but they didn't allow it to transform them.

This is what the reference from Hebrews above refers to. If someone was given all the benefits of the covenant and they still ended up rejecting Christ by their life, then they can not be saved. You can see this in the analogy that Paul uses to explain that very passage. He says such a person is like a field that after being tended and watered producing nothing but weeds, or thorns.

The point being that this is not a judgement made based on fluctuations in a person's life, or a sin here or there, or mistakes, or bad decisions, etc.. it is based on the total product of a person's life.

Protestants generally don't like the idea that some sins can be forgiven after death... yet this idea was present in Old Testment Judaism and there are references to it in the New Testament as well. Such as Jesus saying that "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" will 'not be forgiven in this world, or in the next'. The clear implication is that there are some sins which can be forgiven in the next world. Likewise Paul says that what we do in life will be tested by fire and the righteous fruit of our life will be purified like Gold, but the unrighteous things we built with our lives will be burnt up and such a person will "suffer loss" but yet they will be saved, but only as one saved through fire.

The idea here is that there is a clear difference between a person in whom God's grace bears fruit, but they still have a ways to go to be perfected, and a person in whom God's grace did not bear fruit.

Both of these people are members of the covenant, and both had access to God's grace which is made available through the covenant.

 

[MrJim]

Yo Simon~nice to see ya...

 

[Simon_Templar]

Yo Simon~nice to see ya...

Hey MrJim good to see you too! how are you doing these days?

 

[MrJim]

Hey MrJim good to see you too! how are you doing these days?

Still working the Orthodoxy angle

 

[Simon_Templar]

Still working the Orthodoxy angle

Cool, how is that all going for you?


I'm still technically Anglican but I've been considering and praying about joining the Catholic Church for a while. As a result I've been listening to and reading a few Catholic teachers/scholars recently and have really been enjoying them.

 

[a pilgrim]

So, Simon, back to the discussion here. I come from a different background, doctrinally, then what you are saying. I'm not looking for a fuss or nothing, I just want to understand something. You said we enter into this new covenant by baptism and the lord's supper. You've probably been asked this, but I do post in sincerity, was the thief on the cross prior to the new covenant? If not, how did he make it in without baptism? If so, when did the new covenant begin because Jesus declared some of his followers "during" his earthly ministry already, as we would call it, saved. Were they in the new or old covenant?

Thanks,
Ben

 

[Simon_Templar]

So, Simon, back to the discussion here. I come from a different background, doctrinally, then what you are saying. I'm not looking for a fuss or nothing, I just want to understand something. You said we enter into this new covenant by baptism and the lord's supper. You've probably been asked this, but I do post in sincerity, was the thief on the cross prior to the new covenant? If not, how did he make it in without baptism? If so, when did the new covenant begin because Jesus declared some of his followers "during" his earthly ministry already, as we would call it, saved. Were they in the new or old covenant?

Thanks,
Ben

No worries Ben

I don't remember if I mentioned it or not but I used to come from a different doctrinal background myself. I was raised non-denom, evangelical, charismatic.
What I grew up with was basically that we believed you baptized because the bible says to do it, but it didn't really do anything, it was just a way of declaring that you had converted.

I now have come to believe that God uses baptism to do a real work of regeneration in the person. However, things like baptism and communion are really gifts for us, they are not restrictions on God.

What I mean by that is that God can save someone without baptism and without communion. Just like God can save someone without the bible or without them ever hearing the gospel. God can sovereignly reveal himself as he sees fit.
However, the gospel and scripture are the normal way by which God reveals himself and calls people. Likewise, baptism is the normal way by which God initiates people into his covenant family, and communion is the normal way by which that covenant bond is refreshed and strengthened.

The same is true in the Old covenant as well... God chose Israel to be his covenant family, and the oracles of Scripture were given only to Israel, the direct presense of God was given only to Israel in the tabernacle and the temple.. God's law was given only to Israel etc... Yet this does not mean that all people outside of Israel necessarily are condemned to hell. It is possible that people who were not of Israel could have known the true God and could have been saved by faith.

Israel was blessed by the fact that they were given the scriptures, and the law, and the temple... but those things were not limitations upon God, they were blessings upon his people.

This does not, however, mean that it is safe for us to disregard the means of Grace that God has given his people, just like it was certainly not safe for Israelites to disregard what God gave them.

 

[Lindas Place]

Hebrews 6:4-6

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

The author of Hebrews is writing to “Hebrews,” Jews, ethnically real Jews… who live before and after Christ… They believe in OT God and the promise to save them.... Now the Savior has come and they must believe in Jesus or be cut off… They are no longer saved just because they are Jews…
These Jews had been enlightened because God had revealed himself to them through the OT. They had tasted the heavenly gift and had shared in the Holy Spirit… They had tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of he coming age, but they are acting like they are waiting for Christ to come. They are acting like Jesus never died, they are still waiting for it to happen.
Since God has done all this for the Jews if the Jews still reject the Son of God who fulfilled the promise made to them, if they say “but we do not want Jesus” then they are crucifying the Son of God all over again. These Jews have faith in God, now they must have faith Jesus.

 

[Lindas Place]

Here is an interesting question that brings some animosity between my wife and I when studying.

Can a Christian who has accepted Jesus, been baptised and has walked the life for years then turns away from God and Jesus still be saved if they do not come back?

Some people seem to believe that once your saved your saved for good no matter what you do. That is not my opinion however.

So what is your opinion on the matter? If someone who has accepted Jesus previously and turns from Him and dies, does that person still get entrance to Heaven? Please explain reasoning with scripture to back up please

Jesus Christ made the promise in John 6:37 that He would never cast out anyone who had trusted Him as Savior for any reason.

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me, I will in no wise cast out."

There is no circumstance or instance that would cause Christ to cast a saved person aside.

But I can cast myself out. This is impossible. Read John 6:39 where Jesus said,

"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that all which he hath given, I should lose nothing but should raise it up again at the last day."

Jesus promises that He will never lose anyone who has come to him for salvation and that this is the Father's will.

 

[Sketcher]

If they don't, I don't know. I do believe it's a moot point, because Peter came back.

 

[thesunisout]

The scripture is pretty clear that you can lose your salvation. Take this verse for instance:

Revelation 22:19

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

That pretty much puts the nail in the coffin for once saved always saved. Scripture gives many examples of how you can lose you salvation:

Matthew 24:48-51

But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, 'My master is staying away a long time, and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards.

The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:26-30

His master replied, ‘You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed?

Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.

“‘Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents.

For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him.

And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Those two alone show that those who don't abide in Christ are in danger. Another one that proves it is:

Hebrews 10:26-27

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

It's hard to get more direct than that. The important thing to remember is that it isn't like God is just looking for an opportunity to fry us. It would only be a willful and rebellious person who refuses to obey Gods authority who would end up in this position.

Here is an interesting question that brings some animosity between my wife and I when studying.

Can a Christian who has accepted Jesus, been baptised and has walked the life for years then turns away from God and Jesus still be saved if they do not come back?

Some people seem to believe that once your saved your saved for good no matter what you do. That is not my opinion however.

So what is your opinion on the matter? If someone who has accepted Jesus previously and turns from Him and dies, does that person still get entrance to Heaven? Please explain reasoning with scripture to back up please

 

[Lindas Place]

The scripture is pretty clear that you can lose your salvation. Take this verse for instance:

Revelation 22:19

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

That pretty much puts the nail in the coffin for once saved always saved. Scripture gives many examples of how you can lose you salvation:

Ignoring vs. 17 which say’s salvation is a gift, is indeed taking away from this book… and there is no other way to be saved… the bible say’s the book of life was completed before the foundation of the world… God knew beforehand who would take away from this prophecy to void the free gift… God is not writing and erasing as we go.

Rev 22
17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

 

[Lindas Place]

The scripture is pretty clear that you can lose your salvation. Take this verse for instance:


Hebrews 10:26-27

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

It's hard to get more direct than that. The important thing to remember is that it isn't like God is just looking for an opportunity to fry us. It would only be a willful and rebellious person who refuses to obey Gods authority who would end up in this position.

If Hebrews 10 does not convince us that … Jesus saved us once for all time, and it is a sin to believe His blood did not save us completely… then nothing will… this is my favorite book… very encouraging.. if they continue to believe they can lose God’s salvation, and return to offering animal sacrifices for sins… they are deliberately sinning and God will judge His people…
Lets read it in context… This is Good News !
Hebrews 10
Christ’s Sacrifice Once for All
1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2 If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, 4 because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.
7 Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, O God.’”
8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them” (although the law required them to be made). 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13 Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16 “This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”
17 Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”
18 And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.
A Call to Persevere
19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. 25 Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
32 Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you stood your ground in a great contest in the face of suffering. 33 Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. 34 You sympathized with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions.
35 So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. 36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37 For in just a very little while,
“He who is coming will come and will not delay.
38 But my righteous one will live by faith.
And if he shrinks back,
I will not be pleased with him.”
39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.

 

[thesunisout]

I'm sorry, but did you just attack me by saying that I took away from the book? I'm sorry that you feel threatened by scripture and need to lash out, but I would hope that we could have a civil discourse about this.

Verse 17 doesn't change the facts of verses 18 and 19. It directly says:

God shall take away his part out of the book of life

That means that God does remove names from the book. This is also supported by scripture:

Exodus 32:33

But the LORD said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me, I will blot out of my book.

Deuteronomy 29:20

The LORD will not be willing to forgive him, but rather the anger of the LORD and his jealousy will smoke against that man, and the curses written in this book will settle upon him, and the LORD will blot out his name from under heaven.

Deuteronomy 9:14

Let me alone, that I may destroy them and blot out their name from under heaven. And I will make of you a nation mightier and greater than they.’

God clearly does erase names from the book of life.

Ignoring vs. 17 which say’s salvation is a gift, is indeed taking away from this book… and there is no other way to be saved… the bible say’s the book of life was completed before the foundation of the world… God knew beforehand who would take away from this prophecy to void the free gift… God is not writing and erasing as we go.

Rev 22
17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

 

[thesunisout]

That's an interesting interpretation Linda, but it doesn't hold water. First of all, because you have just contradicted yourself. Paul is speaking to Christians here, which means they are saved. If a Christian will be judged for making animal sacrifices, then you have just proven that the once saved always saved doctrine is false.

Second, you have no case for your interpretation, even if it didn't contridict itself. Up to verse 17, Paul is contrasting the differences between the old and new covenants, and how Christ is the all-sufficient sacrifice. Verse 18 is the summation of this thrust:

18 And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.

Meaning, where your sins have been forgiven, there is no longer any requirement to make a sacrifice for sin. Then it continues on:

19 Therefore, brothers,

Therefore, as in, "since all of those things we just covered are true"

Brothers, as in, Christians

since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.

He then starts to affirm the greater truth of our salvation. Verse 19-22 is admonishing the brethern, on the basis of Christs sacrifice, to approach God with full confidence

23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. 25 Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

23-25 Is reiterating the necessarity of faith and of mutual encouragement.

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

Now he is showing the consequences of unrepentant, habitual sin under the new covenant. When you receive knowledge of the truth, IE, salvation, and you keep on sinning, "no sacrifice for sin is left". Meaning, there is no sacrifice for sins at all, whether by an animal or by the blood of Christ. No sacrifice what so ever. Meaning, once you get saved, if you keep living like a demon you're all out of options.

28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace

Verse 28-29 makes this clear. Anyone who rejects the law of moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. And that was just for rejecting the law of Moses. It is clearly saying that a person who rejects the blood of Christ that sanctifies him, meaning that he is saved, is deserving of a far worse punishment than that. So, the verse clearly states you can lose your salvation for "treating as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that santifies you".

I would also like you to address my other examples and not just cherry pick out of my post what you think you can justify.

If Hebrews 10 does not convince us that … Jesus saved us once for all time, and it is a sin to believe His blood did not save us completely… then nothing will… this is my favorite book… very encouraging.. if they continue to believe they can lose God’s salvation, and return to offering animal sacrifices for sins… they are deliberately sinning and God will judge His people…
Lets read it in context… This is Good News !
Hebrews 10
Christ’s Sacrifice Once for All
1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2 If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, 4 because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.
7 Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, O God.’”
8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them” (although the law required them to be made). 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13 Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16 “This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”
17 Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”
18 And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.
A Call to Persevere
19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. 25 Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
32 Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you stood your ground in a great contest in the face of suffering. 33 Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. 34 You sympathized with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions.
35 So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. 36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37 For in just a very little while,
“He who is coming will come and will not delay.
38 But my righteous one will live by faith.
And if he shrinks back,
I will not be pleased with him.”
39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.