Can a Christian make the following statement in good faith?

[pescador]

Can a Christian make the following statement in good faith?

I will never have an abortion nor would I advise another person to have one nor would I go out of my way to assist a person to have one. Yet I do not support the state making laws to criminalise the act of abortion for those who participate in an abortion in any capacity that I can think of.​

Please, when replying, do not make this into a pro-abortion vs anti-abortion debate. The intention is to ask if a faithful Christian can hold both that abortion is morally unacceptable and also that the state ought not to legislate to make a pregnant woman, her doctor, the nurses and other support persons into criminals because they participated in an abortion.

No. There are times when an abortion is medically necessary. For example, if the pregnancy would result in the death of the mother (for example an ectopic pregnancy) or the fetus has a fatal anomaly that will make it impossible for it to survive outside the womb (for example, lungs that won't function).

It is not the role of the government to make medical decisions for anyone, woman or man.

For example, I heard a woman on TV whose daughter had a miscarriage. She was afraid that the government would now have the right to inspect her medicine cabinet to see if the tragedy was medically induced. Does any sane person want that?

 

[pescador]

Having sex is not a "mistake". Poor sense of self worth, bad morals and ethics, are some of the factors that lead to high rates of unplanned pregnancy.
Abstinence can be done. If someone keeps making mistakes then they have made poor life choices.
Killing an unborn child b/c of that is unacceptable.

Of course you don't bring up rape, incest, or intercourse performed against the woman's will.

 

[BravoM]

Of course you don't bring up rape, incest, or intercourse performed against the woman's will.

I don't argue from abnormal occurrences. Normal is what defines everything. Abnormal exists but is the exception not the rule.
Rape and incest are not the standard.
Sex doesn't always equal a pregnancy regardless of the cause.
They happen but they are not an argument.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

If you see abortion as the taking of an innocent child's life would that not mean it is a crime?

It is a moral outrage to kill an innocent, yet if the innocent is in the womb then the law does not currently call it a crime so it is not a crime according to the law.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Having sex is not a "mistake".

There is date rape, unwanted sex within marriage, and any number of other circumstances in which sex may occur without deliberate fully informed consent, also one could forget to take "the pill" or one's contraceptive method may fail. And thus an infant is conceived by 'mistake' broadly speaking.

 

[pescador]

I don't argue from abnormal occurrences. Normal is what defines everything. Abnormal exists but is the exception not the rule.
Rape and incest are not the standard.
Sex doesn't always equal a pregnancy regardless of the cause.
They happen but they are not an argument.

No, you just make the blanket statement "If someone keeps making mistakes then they have made poor life choices. Killing an unborn child b/c of that is unacceptable." So you're presenting only a part of the overall picture.

Rape, incest, and no protection (whether intentional or not) all produce unwanted pregnancies.

 

[DamianWarS]

But it would be wrong for a Christian to take that stance when the choice could harm or kill another person, especially an innocent baby. I can say that about a person's right to choose Coke or Pepsi, but when it comes to life and death, if you believe taking a life is a sin, then how can you be in favor of a person possibly choosing to take a life? It doesn't make sense.

anything that leads us away from Christ leads to death. there are a lot of rights within a system that leads away from Christ but just because I disagree with it morally doesn't mean I don't recognize its role in a free society. If we support these freedoms then we support the right to reject Christ which is tantamount to choosing death over life. Does an unborn child have more value than a 40yr atheist? it would be inconsistent to judge one as more worthy than another but if we reject the right to choose death for one why do we not also reject the right to choose death for another? in the end the legal system is not there to save people so it will come to conclusions that will be inconsistent with our faith and regardless what the laws allows or rejects Christ still calls us to spread his life-giving message to those on a path to death. America is not the new Israel so let's recognize that the legal system is not an extension of our faith and the right to choose abortion is completely consistent with a free society which is what the law is more motivated to uphold.

 

[pescador]

It is a moral outrage to kill an innocent, yet if the innocent is in the womb then the law does not currently call it a crime so it is not a crime according to the law.

Of course, the mother-to-be can be an innocent victim. Is it a mistake for her to die or suffer for many years because of something done to her? Sometimes abortions are medically necessary. Sometimes they are done to prevent the mother's suffering (and her family's) for many years because of a crime committed against her.

 

[Michie]

Myth: Treatment for ectopic pregnancy is considered an abortion, and thus many women will likely die from lack of treatment in states where abortion is illegal.

Ectopic pregnancies occur when an embryo implants outside the uterus, usually in the fallopian tube. Though relatively rare, the most recent data available from the CDC shows the rate of ectopic pregnancies increasing to about 1.4% as of 2013, and may today be as high as 2%.

Once implanted, the embryo’s growth is likely to rupture the fallopian tube, which can cause the death of both mother and child. And whether treatment is done or not, the embryo is highly unlikely to survive.

There are three common medical procedures to address ectopic pregnancies, two surgical and one involving a drug. In all of the procedures, the embryo dies. From a Catholic perspective, direct abortion — the intentional killing of an unborn baby — is never permitted, but a procedure to save a woman‘s life that has the unintended effect of an unborn baby’s death is morally permissible.

But medical professionals have noted that virtually every state regulation or ban on abortion contains an explicit exception for ectopic pregnancy treatment — which, again, is generally not considered the same as an abortion.

True enough, some recent state legislative proposals — which have garnered frenzied media attention — have included references to ectopic pregnancy that have worried some medical professionals for their ambiguity. But state legislatures have taken steps to address this issue and make sure that ectopic pregnancy treatments are allowed and accessible.

For example, a Louisiana bill under consideration would treat abortion as a homicide, and originally did not carve out an explicit protection for ectopic pregnancy treatment. However, a companion Louisiana bill, from pro-life Democrat Katrina Jackson, explicitly states that ectopic pregnancy treatments are not illegal under Louisiana’s abortion ban.

Continued below.
How to Debunk 7 Common Myths About Overturning Roe v. Wade

 

[Michie]

Myth: Women could now be jailed after having miscarriages.

About one in five pregnancies will end in miscarriage. Every woman will respond and process their grief differently, but needless to say, such an intensely personal and emotional occurrence should be met with compassion and loving care, not criminal proceedings.

This is an extremely sensitive and scary topic for many women. Some pro-choice advocates have pointed to countries such as El Salvador, where abortion is banned entirely and women have been arrested after miscarriages and investigated, as portending what could happen in the United States.


But incidents in the U.S. where a mother could be jailed for a miscarriage are relatively rare, and often involve instances where women used illegal and harmful drugs during pregnancy. An Oklahoma woman who was sentenced last October to four years in prison after her baby died in her womb at 17 weeks. In that case, the 21-year-old woman admitted to using methamphetamines while pregnant, and traces of meth were found in the unborn baby’s body.

About two dozen states have laws defining substance use during pregnancy as child abuse under civil child welfare statutes, according to the pro-abortion Guttmacher Institute. But, “There is also no serious likelihood of the incidental criminalization of contraception, [In-Vitro Fertilization] and management of ectopic pregnancy or miscarriages,” Snead, the legal scholar, wrote.

Continued below.
How to Debunk 7 Common Myths About Overturning Roe v. Wade

 

[Rachel20]

It is a moral outrage to kill an innocent, yet if the innocent is in the womb then the law does not currently call it a crime so it is not a crime according to the law.

With regards to abortion laws, correct. But there's a double standard. For example, in the case of the murder of pregnant women, which many states, even those considering abortion not a crime, would consider a double homicide

State Laws on Fetal Homicide and Penalty-enhancement for Crimes Against Pregnant Women

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

With regards to abortion laws, correct. But there's a double standard. For example, in the case of the murder of pregnant women, which many states, even those considering abortion not a crime, would consider a double homicide

State Laws on Fetal Homicide and Penalty-enhancement for Crimes Against Pregnant Women

Perhaps it is not a double standard, if the law is counting the unborn infant as a second person killed by the murderer because the pregnant mother intended to carry the unborn infant to full term and be delivered of a (hopefully) healthy child.

 

[BravoM]

No, you just make the blanket statement "If someone keeps making mistakes then they have made poor life choices. Killing an unborn child b/c of that is unacceptable." So you're presenting only a part of the overall picture.

Rape, incest, and no protection (whether intentional or not) all produce unwanted pregnancies.

General statements are one thing.
Every rape does NOT produce a pregnancy.
Every incest sex act does NOT produce a pregnancy.
Learn basic human biology especially of the female sex.

 

[Rachel20]

Perhaps it is not a double standard, if the law is counting the unborn infant as a second person killed by the murderer because the pregnant mother intended to carry the unborn infant to full term and be delivered of a (hopefully) healthy child.

Sad, isn't it? It doesn't boil down to whether the fetus is a human person, but whether it's wanted.

 

[BravoM]

It is a person at conception.
How we look as we are created and developed cannot be changed. For some out there, that does NOT mean it isn't human or "just a clump of cells".
You're a "clump of cells" so can you be aborted? No.
Wanted or not, killing it is immoral, unethical, and evil.
Imagine God's fury and justice on unborn baby murderers.

 

[Rachel20]

Can a Christian make the following statement in good faith?

I will never have an abortion nor would I advise another person to have one nor would I go out of my way to assist a person to have one. Yet I do not support the state making laws to criminalise the act of abortion for those who participate in an abortion in any capacity that I can think of.​

Please, when replying, do not make this into a pro-abortion vs anti-abortion debate. The intention is to ask if a faithful Christian can hold both that abortion is morally unacceptable and also that the state ought not to legislate to make a pregnant woman, her doctor, the nurses and other support persons into criminals because they participated in an abortion.

I can probably be persuaded on this one, since I'm mixed-emotioned. But I think the key is "good faith" and so I believe - yes, they really can believe this and be acting in good faith. Even scripture taught us you can't legislate morality/righteousness because everyone broke the law. So as a Christian, if your concern is their souls, legislation does nothing for that. It just makes criminals out of people who weren't previously criminals. And America already has a gulag-mentality problem as it is.

 

[pescador]

General statements are one thing.
Every rape does NOT produce a pregnancy.
Every incest sex act does NOT produce a pregnancy.
Learn basic human biology especially of the female sex.

I understand basic human biology, especially of the female sex, very, very well. Do you think that personal criticism will get you very far in this discussion (or any other)?

FYI, rape and incest can and do produce unwanted pregnancies. What is your solution to pregnancies that are the result of those acts?

 

[pescador]

It is a person at conception.
How we look as we are created and developed cannot be changed. For some out there, that does NOT mean it isn't human or "just a clump of cells".
You're a "clump of cells" so can you be aborted? No.
Wanted or not, killing it is immoral, unethical, and evil.
Imagine God's fury and justice on unborn baby murderers.

Saying that it is a person at conception is simply your opinion, and I disagree.
Can a fetus survive on its own? No.
Can it breathe on its own? No.
Can it eat on its own? No.
Can it communicate on its own? No.

A fetus is incapable of life on its own. It is entirely dependent on its mother for "life".

God killed all the firstborn of Egypt -- humans and animals.
God allowed Herod to kill all the male children two years of age and younger.
God allowed His son to be killed by the Romans.

So, by your logic, God is immoral, unethical, and evil.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Can a Christian make the following statement in good faith?

I will never have an abortion nor would I advise another person to have one nor would I go out of my way to assist a person to have one. Yet I do not support the state making laws to criminalise the act of abortion for those who participate in an abortion in any capacity that I can think of.​

Please, when replying, do not make this into a pro-abortion vs anti-abortion debate. The intention is to ask if a faithful Christian can hold both that abortion is morally unacceptable and also that the state ought not to legislate to make a pregnant woman, her doctor, the nurses and other support persons into criminals because they participated in an abortion.

Why should we think that the state cannot criminalize abortion? This seems like a separation of church & state idea which isn’t actually biblical it’s secular.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Can a Christian make the following statement in good faith?

I will never have an abortion nor would I advise another person to have one nor would I go out of my way to assist a person to have one. Yet I do not support the state making laws to criminalise the act of abortion for those who participate in an abortion in any capacity that I can think of.​

Please, when replying, do not make this into a pro-abortion vs anti-abortion debate. The intention is to ask if a faithful Christian can hold both that abortion is morally unacceptable and also that the state ought not to legislate to make a pregnant woman, her doctor, the nurses and other support persons into criminals because they participated in an abortion.

no I would disagree with that statement. I believe it is the government’s obligation to protect innocent lives over the freedom’s of the people. If a person’s freedom directly causes another person’s death then that freedom has to be waived. The weight of one person’s inconvenience over the life of another person is not balanced. A person’s life is more important than a person’s inconvenience.